Specifically the last paragraph of it.
V6 powered E30 (Finished!)
Moderator: martauto
Thanks again for the replys,
Some fantastic insights into V6 design in the earlier threads, but I have
been assured the customer has extensively researched this subject and mentally
wrestled with the potential pitfalls unavoidable in V6 design and after long hours,
days, weeks of deliberation came to the carefully derived conclusion
"lets stick a V6 in it, that'd sound sweet"
On some of the other issues raised,
Had noted the belt change on the list of tasks outlined to the customer but have to
say I was not aware these were main dealer only parts
had just presumed the local
motor factors could provide an aftermarket Gates belt kit. Something I must look into.
Had come across info on another forum on fitting the ford box to this engine, and indeed
read an article in PPC covering the same issue, we've also just finished fitting a Ford type 9
box to an Opel red top engine, but with this matching as you may well know the bellhousing and
any other parts are available off the shelf, greatly simplifing the task. With this in mind we reckoned
pairing up the BM gearbox would probably involve the same amount of labour as matching it to the
ford box, so we might as well save some of the budget and use the box thats already there.
Have explained to the customer that down the line should he wish to improve the gear ratios
that a lot more options would be available to him if it had the ford box, but also pointed out that
its only worth while if it falls within the budget. Once you've set out a figure in your head on
what you're willing to spend to build your car, stick to it, once you start down the slippery slope
of "if only it had A, B+C, it can be hard not to get carried away.
P.s.
After reading through the previous posts including my own, I would like
to point out to the audience, before anyone gets the wrong idea, that despite our best wishes we are not a transglobal motorsport preperation
consortium, we're just 2 mechanics in a shed who like to mess with cars after work.
Some fantastic insights into V6 design in the earlier threads, but I have
been assured the customer has extensively researched this subject and mentally
wrestled with the potential pitfalls unavoidable in V6 design and after long hours,
days, weeks of deliberation came to the carefully derived conclusion
"lets stick a V6 in it, that'd sound sweet"
On some of the other issues raised,
Had noted the belt change on the list of tasks outlined to the customer but have to
say I was not aware these were main dealer only parts
had just presumed the localmotor factors could provide an aftermarket Gates belt kit. Something I must look into.
Had come across info on another forum on fitting the ford box to this engine, and indeed
read an article in PPC covering the same issue, we've also just finished fitting a Ford type 9
box to an Opel red top engine, but with this matching as you may well know the bellhousing and
any other parts are available off the shelf, greatly simplifing the task. With this in mind we reckoned
pairing up the BM gearbox would probably involve the same amount of labour as matching it to the
ford box, so we might as well save some of the budget and use the box thats already there.
Have explained to the customer that down the line should he wish to improve the gear ratios
that a lot more options would be available to him if it had the ford box, but also pointed out that
its only worth while if it falls within the budget. Once you've set out a figure in your head on
what you're willing to spend to build your car, stick to it, once you start down the slippery slope
of "if only it had A, B+C, it can be hard not to get carried away.
P.s.
After reading through the previous posts including my own, I would like
to point out to the audience, before anyone gets the wrong idea, that despite our best wishes we are not a transglobal motorsport preperation
consortium, we're just 2 mechanics in a shed who like to mess with cars after work.
That's how it's best!x-works wrote: P.s.
After reading through the previous posts including my own, I would like
to point out to the audience, before anyone gets the wrong idea, that despite our best wishes we are not a transglobal motorsport preperation
consortium, we're just 2 mechanics in a shed who like to mess with cars after work.
... And having read the building/scrapping story of the E30, I'd say you know quite well what you're doing!
Well, building cars, I won't comment on the driving...
Evening all,
We've taken delivery of the car and V6 engine, must say even just sitting there doing noting
the V6 does look sweet. We've decided that before touching anything on the car that we're going
to concentrate on pairing the gearbox to the engine on the ground first as we have a spare gearbox
to use without removing the 318's box. The first item on the adgenda is the Alfa 75's flywheel
which is not going to prove to usefull. For those of you not to familiar (pic's to follow shortly) the
75's V6 is not fitted with a clutch, the propshaft is connected straight to the flywheel and the
clutch buisness is taken care of down the rear end of the car. With this in mind we are going to
try and source a flywheel from another Alfa V6 which had a clutch bolted to it. At the moment
the Alfa 164 is the only one we can think of that was anyway common enough to find around
breakers yards. If you can think of any others please post! We are assuming that the same crank
would have been used in both these engines and as such the flywheels should be interchangeable.
I've tried searching online to see if theres a parts catalogue hosted on the web such as bmw's real.oem
to cross reference crank part numbers, but haven't found one. Again, if you know of one please post.
The current line of thinking when the flywheel is sorted is to fabricate a sandwich plate probably
about 8-10mm thick which would bolt to the engine and then bolt the gearbox to this. The other thing is if
the Alfa 164's flywheel does bolt over then as it is a front wheel drive it almost certainly won't contain
a spigot bearing to support the gearbox input shaft, we're guessing it shouldn't be to difficult to have a
machine shop cut a recess in the flywheel to house a bearing.
Once again any of your thoughts greatly appreciated.
We've taken delivery of the car and V6 engine, must say even just sitting there doing noting
the V6 does look sweet. We've decided that before touching anything on the car that we're going
to concentrate on pairing the gearbox to the engine on the ground first as we have a spare gearbox
to use without removing the 318's box. The first item on the adgenda is the Alfa 75's flywheel
which is not going to prove to usefull. For those of you not to familiar (pic's to follow shortly) the
75's V6 is not fitted with a clutch, the propshaft is connected straight to the flywheel and the
clutch buisness is taken care of down the rear end of the car. With this in mind we are going to
try and source a flywheel from another Alfa V6 which had a clutch bolted to it. At the moment
the Alfa 164 is the only one we can think of that was anyway common enough to find around
breakers yards. If you can think of any others please post! We are assuming that the same crank
would have been used in both these engines and as such the flywheels should be interchangeable.
I've tried searching online to see if theres a parts catalogue hosted on the web such as bmw's real.oem
to cross reference crank part numbers, but haven't found one. Again, if you know of one please post.
The current line of thinking when the flywheel is sorted is to fabricate a sandwich plate probably
about 8-10mm thick which would bolt to the engine and then bolt the gearbox to this. The other thing is if
the Alfa 164's flywheel does bolt over then as it is a front wheel drive it almost certainly won't contain
a spigot bearing to support the gearbox input shaft, we're guessing it shouldn't be to difficult to have a
machine shop cut a recess in the flywheel to house a bearing.
Once again any of your thoughts greatly appreciated.
Not at all, I'm sure you'll agree all the great drivers have rolled a carsuzie650 wrote: Well, building cars, I won't comment on the driving...
or 2 during there careers, I decided to have mine at the beginning of
my career so now I can concentrate solely on the "greatness".
I owned an Alfa75 3ltr for 3 years (just sold it in fact) and it's a very smooth and grunty engine. Would pull from 1000 rpm in 5th no problem. Light as well being all alloy. The bottom ends are virtually unbreakable!
As for sound I'd place them equally...the I6 beemer sounds lovely through a straight through exhaust, a propper race-bred howl!
I'd say replace the head gaskets if the engines of unknown origin as they tend to deteriorate with age and it's a piece of cake with the engine out of the car, just need to be careful not to disturb the liners.
Plenty of tuning potential as well; people take them out to 3.8 ltr, fit throttle bodies etc.
As for sound I'd place them equally...the I6 beemer sounds lovely through a straight through exhaust, a propper race-bred howl!
I'd say replace the head gaskets if the engines of unknown origin as they tend to deteriorate with age and it's a piece of cake with the engine out of the car, just need to be careful not to disturb the liners.
Plenty of tuning potential as well; people take them out to 3.8 ltr, fit throttle bodies etc.
Oh....try EB Spares for parts (www.ebspares.co.uk). Excellent company to deal with, get most of my Alfa bits from them.
I believe in South Africa they use M3 gearbox's mounted direct to the engine on their turbo conversions as the transaxles can't cope with the power!
I believe in South Africa they use M3 gearbox's mounted direct to the engine on their turbo conversions as the transaxles can't cope with the power!
-
E30BeemerLad
- Married to the E30 Zone
- Posts: 16806
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Norfolk
this is why I bought my 164 6 years ago
there was a useful chap I used to speak to over Altrincham way I think called Albert, his garage was called Alberto's Autos, old skool guy, he may be useful for bits if he is fragging a few turds out back, do a google on him, may turn up a website
there was a useful chap I used to speak to over Altrincham way I think called Albert, his garage was called Alberto's Autos, old skool guy, he may be useful for bits if he is fragging a few turds out back, do a google on him, may turn up a website
-
MrDazzle
- E30 Zone Regular
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: On the path to the dark side
Turbo-Brown...a 90' V2 has almost perfect natural balance..so while you're correct an IL6 is the smallest engine with perfect balance, a V2 is almost there.
I know at first glance it wouldn't be, but becuase you can have big counterweights (as in a cross-plane V8) you can get perfect primary and secondary balance. There is a tiny couple generated because altough both pistons share a crank pin, they are of couse seperated along the length of the crank shaft by a small distance.
Monkey...intake (and indeed exhaust) length tuning was known about long before Mazda started buggering about with it. Even 1950's F1 cars took advantage of it (although obviously without clever variable inlet tracts). Particularly large strides were made by Walter Kaaden at MZ working on exhaust tuning in the 50's aswell.
I know at first glance it wouldn't be, but becuase you can have big counterweights (as in a cross-plane V8) you can get perfect primary and secondary balance. There is a tiny couple generated because altough both pistons share a crank pin, they are of couse seperated along the length of the crank shaft by a small distance.
Monkey...intake (and indeed exhaust) length tuning was known about long before Mazda started buggering about with it. Even 1950's F1 cars took advantage of it (although obviously without clever variable inlet tracts). Particularly large strides were made by Walter Kaaden at MZ working on exhaust tuning in the 50's aswell.
Startin to make some progress now. First up was to trial fit the engine and see what "issues" laid ahead. As you can see below unless the american drag car look is what your after the inlet plenum sticking 5 inches above the bonnet line could definitely be called an issue.
Problem was the V6's sump was hitting the e30's crossmember and preventing it from sitting down as far as we wanted.
So we started work on a custom sump. First thing to check was where the V6's oil pick up pipe was located, as if this was directly above the subframe we could be in trouble.
As you can see from the above it turns out it's located towards the front of the engine which is helpfull. So next step was to figure out the measurements for the new sump and still have it hold the same amount of oil. After a few arguments about how many centimeters squared are in a litre and which of us was thicker than the other we came up with the figures that let us start on the following.
Hope to get it finished welded tomorrow and refit it to the engine. Found a secondhand flywheel from a 164 in a parts supplier in London, and had it delivered over last week. So should be able to start mounting the gearbox to the engine next, as soon as we figure out what bolts to use to connect the flywheel, old flywheels bolts are to long with not enough thread and 164's flywheel bolts are just the right length but a different thread than the holes for them in the crank. Don't you just love Italian engineering.
Problem was the V6's sump was hitting the e30's crossmember and preventing it from sitting down as far as we wanted.
So we started work on a custom sump. First thing to check was where the V6's oil pick up pipe was located, as if this was directly above the subframe we could be in trouble.
As you can see from the above it turns out it's located towards the front of the engine which is helpfull. So next step was to figure out the measurements for the new sump and still have it hold the same amount of oil. After a few arguments about how many centimeters squared are in a litre and which of us was thicker than the other
we came up with the figures that let us start on the following.Hope to get it finished welded tomorrow and refit it to the engine. Found a secondhand flywheel from a 164 in a parts supplier in London, and had it delivered over last week. So should be able to start mounting the gearbox to the engine next, as soon as we figure out what bolts to use to connect the flywheel, old flywheels bolts are to long with not enough thread and 164's flywheel bolts are just the right length but a different thread than the holes for them in the crank. Don't you just love Italian engineering.
Evening all,
Been a while since I've been in as we haven't done much to the engine since, as we were waiting to get
some parts together. While we were waiting we decided to crack on and make and fit the cage.
By the time the cage was done we had the parts to continue with the V6.
First up was to bolt on the second hand 164 flywheel which accepts a clutch as opposed to the Alfa 75 one which doesn't (gearbox and clutch down the back of the car). One thing that wasn't too straight forward about this is that the original flywheel bolts were now to long for the new skinnier flywheel so we had to track down some others. The circle of 8 bolts that hold on the flywheel is fairly small radius meaning that special bolts are required with smaller than normal heads so they fit. Main dealer provided a choice of 2 types of bolts fine thread and coarse. Our engine had an earlier crank with the coarse threads, later engines I believe have the fine thread.
That sorted we were able to offer up the gearbox to the engine and found out that the BMW box just wasn't going to work out, the input shaft was too short to reach the flywheel. So.........., with an article in mind from an old PPC magazine we headed of to the local scrapyard and bought an old Ford type 9 gearbox from a seirra. The advantage here is the bellhousing bolts off and you can make your own custom one to bolt it to the engine of your choice. We then fitted the splined centre from a ford clutch disc (to mate up with the ford gearbox's input shaft) to an Alfa 164 v6 disc ( to fit against the V6's flywheel).
Next detail to sort out was a spigot bearing or bush. As the V6 engine was fitted to a front wheel drive car the gearbox input shaft doesn't need to be supported at the flywheel side, hence the V6 engine doesn't have a bearing in the centre of the flywheel. However the ford type gearbox's input shaft does need to be supported at the flywheel so the need for a bearing to sit in the flywheel end of the crank. As it turns out the hole in the end of the crank is an odd size and we couldn't find a bearing to fit, so we had a local machine shop make us up a brass bushing to do instead. All of which looks like this......
That sorted we could crack on with the bellhousing. Plan here was a large piece of 10mm sheet steel with a whole cut in it the size of the flywheel, drilled and bolted on to the end of the engine which looks like this..........
And with the centre piece that was cut out of this sheet we cut an inch off the diameter and drilled and bolted it up to the gearbox.......
With this sorted it was time to prop the gearbox up behind the engine, align everything up perfectly square, and start joining the two plates with some flat metal.
Before we finnished enclosing it we had to make a pivot point for the clutch fork, so a 10mm bolt was welded in to the right place. And with all the rest of the pieces of flat fitted and welded we could trim of the excess from the large plate as there was no further worries of the welding heat distorting things. Which left it looking like this.........
Plan is to take the mini grinder to the outside of it in the next few days and smooth it all out. Next to sort out is the clutch slave cylinder to push against the clutch fork and we're going to try and use the original bmw slave cylinder more of which next time.
Before we started on the gearbox we had a chance to refit the engine to the car to see if it would fit with the new sump, which, thankfully, it does............ just!
And when I say just I mean JUST, you wouldn't get a ciggie paper between the top of the engine and the underneath of the bonnet!
Next up is to get the whole lot fitted back in the car and make up some mounts and a pair of exhaust manifolds, bloody V engines.
Been a while since I've been in as we haven't done much to the engine since, as we were waiting to get
some parts together. While we were waiting we decided to crack on and make and fit the cage.
By the time the cage was done we had the parts to continue with the V6.
First up was to bolt on the second hand 164 flywheel which accepts a clutch as opposed to the Alfa 75 one which doesn't (gearbox and clutch down the back of the car). One thing that wasn't too straight forward about this is that the original flywheel bolts were now to long for the new skinnier flywheel so we had to track down some others. The circle of 8 bolts that hold on the flywheel is fairly small radius meaning that special bolts are required with smaller than normal heads so they fit. Main dealer provided a choice of 2 types of bolts fine thread and coarse. Our engine had an earlier crank with the coarse threads, later engines I believe have the fine thread.
That sorted we were able to offer up the gearbox to the engine and found out that the BMW box just wasn't going to work out, the input shaft was too short to reach the flywheel. So.........., with an article in mind from an old PPC magazine we headed of to the local scrapyard and bought an old Ford type 9 gearbox from a seirra. The advantage here is the bellhousing bolts off and you can make your own custom one to bolt it to the engine of your choice. We then fitted the splined centre from a ford clutch disc (to mate up with the ford gearbox's input shaft) to an Alfa 164 v6 disc ( to fit against the V6's flywheel).
Next detail to sort out was a spigot bearing or bush. As the V6 engine was fitted to a front wheel drive car the gearbox input shaft doesn't need to be supported at the flywheel side, hence the V6 engine doesn't have a bearing in the centre of the flywheel. However the ford type gearbox's input shaft does need to be supported at the flywheel so the need for a bearing to sit in the flywheel end of the crank. As it turns out the hole in the end of the crank is an odd size and we couldn't find a bearing to fit, so we had a local machine shop make us up a brass bushing to do instead. All of which looks like this......
That sorted we could crack on with the bellhousing. Plan here was a large piece of 10mm sheet steel with a whole cut in it the size of the flywheel, drilled and bolted on to the end of the engine which looks like this..........
And with the centre piece that was cut out of this sheet we cut an inch off the diameter and drilled and bolted it up to the gearbox.......
With this sorted it was time to prop the gearbox up behind the engine, align everything up perfectly square, and start joining the two plates with some flat metal.
Before we finnished enclosing it we had to make a pivot point for the clutch fork, so a 10mm bolt was welded in to the right place. And with all the rest of the pieces of flat fitted and welded we could trim of the excess from the large plate as there was no further worries of the welding heat distorting things. Which left it looking like this.........
Plan is to take the mini grinder to the outside of it in the next few days and smooth it all out. Next to sort out is the clutch slave cylinder to push against the clutch fork and we're going to try and use the original bmw slave cylinder more of which next time.
Before we started on the gearbox we had a chance to refit the engine to the car to see if it would fit with the new sump, which, thankfully, it does............ just!
And when I say just I mean JUST, you wouldn't get a ciggie paper between the top of the engine and the underneath of the bonnet!
Next up is to get the whole lot fitted back in the car and make up some mounts and a pair of exhaust manifolds, bloody V engines.
Last edited by x-works on Tue May 22, 2007 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
daimlerman
- **BANNED**
- Posts: 15968
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:00 pm
- Location: Grumpy Old Man
Very,very clever work on that bellhousing!!I meet an owner of a Daimler SP250(Dart)a year or three ago who did a similar job to mate a type 9 box to the Daimler V8.Keep those piccys coming.
Evening all,
We made a little progress again since last post.
First on the list was to get the clutch finished and this meant sorting the
clutch fork and operating mechanism. The fork mounts on one side of the
bellhousing on top of the welded in m12 bolt as so.......
and then we drilled and mounted the bmw's slave cylinder on the other
side of the bellhousing to push the fork.......
Been able to use the bm's slave cylinder has meant the there's no need touch any
of the fluid pipes as everything reaches as is, the only other thing that needed
making up was a longer rod to go between the slave cylinder and the fork as the
bm one was to short......
With that sorted it meant we could bolt engine and box back together and
get it back into the car and start mounts. The engine mounts came out like this.........
and the bm's standard rear gearbox mount looks like it's going to fit back
too once we find a ford gearbox mount rubber to sit on top of it.
With the engine now in it's final resting place we started figuring out where
to mount the alternator. The alternator on this v6 when fitted in the
Alfa 75 used a large bracket which bolted to the block and sump and as
we had dumped the sump for our own we decided to make a new mount.
First up was clean the threads in these holes on the side of the block........
then cut and drill a plate to bolt on there..........
and weld an m12 bolt on to sit the alternator on. Alfa's top adjuster then
holds the top mounting point.........
Next up was a radiator, we decided to use the v6's own rad as it
manages to cool the engine in the Alfa 75 and all the engines original
hose pipes would line up again. The rad fits in nice in front of the engine
and all that was needed was a pair of bottom mounts made up and weld
in for it............
and a top mount/steady bracket.........
And thats where the need for beer took over and as such progress halts here for now.
We hope to try and make a start on the exhaust manifolds
next weekend and try and get the powersteering sorted. And thats our
next problem, as you can probably see from the photos the cars a left
hand drive and was fitted with manual steering and we aren't having
much luck finding a left hand power steering rack in the scrap yards aroung here,
so if you have or know of someone selling a left-hand power
steering rack from either a e30 or e36 and would be willing to post it to
Dublin (expences paid by us) please post.
Cheers.
We made a little progress again since last post.
First on the list was to get the clutch finished and this meant sorting the
clutch fork and operating mechanism. The fork mounts on one side of the
bellhousing on top of the welded in m12 bolt as so.......
and then we drilled and mounted the bmw's slave cylinder on the other
side of the bellhousing to push the fork.......
Been able to use the bm's slave cylinder has meant the there's no need touch any
of the fluid pipes as everything reaches as is, the only other thing that needed
making up was a longer rod to go between the slave cylinder and the fork as the
bm one was to short......
With that sorted it meant we could bolt engine and box back together and
get it back into the car and start mounts. The engine mounts came out like this.........
and the bm's standard rear gearbox mount looks like it's going to fit back
too once we find a ford gearbox mount rubber to sit on top of it.
With the engine now in it's final resting place we started figuring out where
to mount the alternator. The alternator on this v6 when fitted in the
Alfa 75 used a large bracket which bolted to the block and sump and as
we had dumped the sump for our own we decided to make a new mount.
First up was clean the threads in these holes on the side of the block........
then cut and drill a plate to bolt on there..........
and weld an m12 bolt on to sit the alternator on. Alfa's top adjuster then
holds the top mounting point.........
Next up was a radiator, we decided to use the v6's own rad as it
manages to cool the engine in the Alfa 75 and all the engines original
hose pipes would line up again. The rad fits in nice in front of the engine
and all that was needed was a pair of bottom mounts made up and weld
in for it............
and a top mount/steady bracket.........
And thats where the need for beer took over and as such progress halts here for now.
We hope to try and make a start on the exhaust manifolds
next weekend and try and get the powersteering sorted. And thats our
next problem, as you can probably see from the photos the cars a left
hand drive and was fitted with manual steering and we aren't having
much luck finding a left hand power steering rack in the scrap yards aroung here,
so if you have or know of someone selling a left-hand power
steering rack from either a e30 or e36 and would be willing to post it to
Dublin (expences paid by us) please post.
Cheers.
Last edited by x-works on Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Great engine, terrible gearbox.Thanks for the replys,
@ buster
yep the rad is well past it's sell by date, but it still holds pressure without leaking and the plan is to get the car
starting and driving and then pull it all asunder again for spraying at which stage some parts such as the rad we will buy new once we're sure thats the type thats going to work.
@ Ziggy
agree standard ford type 9 is a fairly weedy box but, as above it's serving a purpose at the moment and customer is either going with 6 speed sequential or 5 speed H dog in the final installation, once we confirm to him the type 9 gearbox will work.
@ buster
yep the rad is well past it's sell by date, but it still holds pressure without leaking and the plan is to get the car
starting and driving and then pull it all asunder again for spraying at which stage some parts such as the rad we will buy new once we're sure thats the type thats going to work.
@ Ziggy
agree standard ford type 9 is a fairly weedy box but, as above it's serving a purpose at the moment and customer is either going with 6 speed sequential or 5 speed H dog in the final installation, once we confirm to him the type 9 gearbox will work.
Evenin all,
Made some progress again the last couple of weeks, some straight
forward, some not so. A few more parts arrived in the post among which
were the fuel tank and swirl pot which allowed us to start on the rear fuel
cell. As this car has to be able to compete in some motorsport events, the
rules of which decree that the fuel tank, pumps etc must be seperated from
the driver by a sealed metal bulkhead, we decided to mount them all in the
now redundant spare wheel well. Which looks like this..................
the plan is to have a hingeable sealed alloy door to allow access to refuel
and work on the pumps, just about finished this..................
when the covers finished we'll move on to fitting the 2 fuel pumps and filters in
there aswell, somewhere!
The other item that arrived back was the modified driveshaft. We decided
to keep the shaft a 2 piece item retaining the centre bearing as opposed
to a single piece prop for 1 reason, if the shaft was 1 piece we couldn't fit
it without removing the rear axle or engine first! When the driveshaft was
fitted to the standard 318 this wasn't an issue as you first slid the shaft
through the hole in the back axle and bolted it up to the diff and then just
lifted it up to bolt onto the gearbox flange, but now with the ford box fitted
you have a whole different end on the shaft up the front which needs to be
slid on to a splined shaft coming out the back of the ford gearbox. With
a one piece shaft you could only slide it on to one end, whereas with the 2
piece shaft it can bend enough in the middle to slide in both ends. It's a
nice feeling when you narrowly avoid a cock up.
gearbox on the left centre bearing on the right
Next up was the not so straight forward bit, the exhaust manifolds. There
was a nice bit of room on the passenger side of the engine bay to run the
3 branches for that cylinder head, but space on the other side was in short supply
with the engine mount and steering collum proving quite
stubborn...............
Tackled the easy side first and with six 90 degree bend pipes from the
local motorfactors and 6 flanges cut and filed down from 6mm sheet steel
(f**kin elbow still aches from the fileing) we set about running the pipes.
not being able to avoid it any longer we then started or the other side
which I believe is referred to in engineering terms as "a complete b**tard".
with everything tacked into place we could remove both manifolds and
fully weld them up at the bench. One thing we did find handy was when
welding the manifolds in the vice the heat would warp the bends ever so
slightly but enough to make them ackward to refit again, so we bolted the
old cast iron manifolds to the new manifolds during welding to keep them
from moving................
and then refited everything.............
we're away rallying this weekend but if we arrive back alive we hope
to finish the rest of the exhaust system next week and move one large
step towards hearing it run for the first time.
Made some progress again the last couple of weeks, some straight
forward, some not so. A few more parts arrived in the post among which
were the fuel tank and swirl pot which allowed us to start on the rear fuel
cell. As this car has to be able to compete in some motorsport events, the
rules of which decree that the fuel tank, pumps etc must be seperated from
the driver by a sealed metal bulkhead, we decided to mount them all in the
now redundant spare wheel well. Which looks like this..................
the plan is to have a hingeable sealed alloy door to allow access to refuel
and work on the pumps, just about finished this..................
when the covers finished we'll move on to fitting the 2 fuel pumps and filters in
there aswell, somewhere!
The other item that arrived back was the modified driveshaft. We decided
to keep the shaft a 2 piece item retaining the centre bearing as opposed
to a single piece prop for 1 reason, if the shaft was 1 piece we couldn't fit
it without removing the rear axle or engine first! When the driveshaft was
fitted to the standard 318 this wasn't an issue as you first slid the shaft
through the hole in the back axle and bolted it up to the diff and then just
lifted it up to bolt onto the gearbox flange, but now with the ford box fitted
you have a whole different end on the shaft up the front which needs to be
slid on to a splined shaft coming out the back of the ford gearbox. With
a one piece shaft you could only slide it on to one end, whereas with the 2
piece shaft it can bend enough in the middle to slide in both ends. It's a
nice feeling when you narrowly avoid a cock up.
gearbox on the left centre bearing on the right
Next up was the not so straight forward bit, the exhaust manifolds. There
was a nice bit of room on the passenger side of the engine bay to run the
3 branches for that cylinder head, but space on the other side was in short supply
with the engine mount and steering collum proving quite
stubborn...............
Tackled the easy side first and with six 90 degree bend pipes from the
local motorfactors and 6 flanges cut and filed down from 6mm sheet steel
(f**kin elbow still aches from the fileing) we set about running the pipes.
not being able to avoid it any longer we then started or the other side
which I believe is referred to in engineering terms as "a complete b**tard".
with everything tacked into place we could remove both manifolds and
fully weld them up at the bench. One thing we did find handy was when
welding the manifolds in the vice the heat would warp the bends ever so
slightly but enough to make them ackward to refit again, so we bolted the
old cast iron manifolds to the new manifolds during welding to keep them
from moving................
and then refited everything.............
we're away rallying this weekend but if we arrive back alive we hope
to finish the rest of the exhaust system next week and move one large
step towards hearing it run for the first time.
This is a great looking project! I love this kind of stuff. I keep trying to convince myself that I don't need to drop the engine from my Alfa 164 Q4 into my Lancia Delta or maybe buy a Tipo to put it in... No one would see me coming. 
If you're still looking for a left driver power steering rack, I live in Italy and well, we're all left drivers over here. The scrap yard by my house has about 12 E30's sitting around five of them have PS that I know of. I would be happy help you aquire the parts if you need it.
If you're still looking for a left driver power steering rack, I live in Italy and well, we're all left drivers over here. The scrap yard by my house has about 12 E30's sitting around five of them have PS that I know of. I would be happy help you aquire the parts if you need it.No A/C, no PWR steering, no ABS... It's a race car! '89 320i Touring / DiamondSchwartz Metalic
Frankiej thanks a million for the offer, greatly appreciated, this car also spent the first half of it's life in Italy.
At this moment we've decided to go with the manual rack for the time being as we're not sure given how close
the exhaust manifold runs to the rack if heat soak would start to boil the power steering fluid. When the cars
up and running we'll get a feel of the weight of the steering and if it's uncomfortably heavy we are thinking
about looking into fitting an electric steering coloumn like used in the opel corsa.
At this moment we've decided to go with the manual rack for the time being as we're not sure given how close
the exhaust manifold runs to the rack if heat soak would start to boil the power steering fluid. When the cars
up and running we'll get a feel of the weight of the steering and if it's uncomfortably heavy we are thinking
about looking into fitting an electric steering coloumn like used in the opel corsa.
erm...... the 2 of us actually served our time as HGV (heavy goods vehicle) mechanics and work 9 to 5 on deisel buses.
It was frustrating working on something rear wheel drive with 10 litre engines that couldn't go sideways so thats why we started messing with cars after work. Think (could be wrong) that the 155 was fwd, which would "just" mean welding in a tunnel and bolting in a rear drive axle. Probably a stack of work involved, but sure if it was simple everybody'd
have one and it wouldn't be worth doing.
It was frustrating working on something rear wheel drive with 10 litre engines that couldn't go sideways so thats why we started messing with cars after work.
Think (could be wrong) that the 155 was fwd, which would "just" mean welding in a tunnel and bolting in a rear drive axle. Probably a stack of work involved, but sure if it was simple everybody'dhave one and it wouldn't be worth doing.
Probably a stack of work involved, but sure if it was simple everybody'd
have one and it wouldn't be worth doing.
I like the way you think brother. Yeah, the Alfa 155 was FWD with the exception of the 155 Q4 (AWD).No A/C, no PWR steering, no ABS... It's a race car! '89 320i Touring / DiamondSchwartz Metalic
I know this is an old tread but this is some ideas from some one who was and still is and Alfist.
The Alfa V6 is a lovely engine in many ways, its made by alloy who make it as a light engine when it comes to weight, and the engine sound is fantastic.
But hell man, an Alfa V6 is an old construction these days, and guys who want over 240bhp out of an 3 litre Alfa V6 need to spend at least 4 grand on the engine. You will be a very good friend to special tuning companys around Europe, and I will warned you that Alfa is not a good friend when its comes to make spear parts. So you will maybe see that to find parts for the engine is a much more difficoult job than a BMW inline six.
Remember also that parts for this Alfa V6 is not cheap either, £140 for a new thermostate and if you want performance camshafts they will cost you a lot more than a BMW, and you will need to look mostly in the Italian market for them. I have had plenty of Ideas around Alfa engines during my years as an x-Alfa Romeo owner, but I have scrapped all of them because they are not good to work on, and in many ways hope less to get performance parts.
My friend back in Norway want to tune his Alfa GTV 2.0 V6 Turbo Benzina, and it will cost him £4000 for only 30-40bhp more.
So come on pal, its a reason why I drive around in my E30! I have maybe spent £30.000 in maintinance for my Italian cars during my years as a driver.
The Alfa V6 is a lovely engine in many ways, its made by alloy who make it as a light engine when it comes to weight, and the engine sound is fantastic.
But hell man, an Alfa V6 is an old construction these days, and guys who want over 240bhp out of an 3 litre Alfa V6 need to spend at least 4 grand on the engine. You will be a very good friend to special tuning companys around Europe, and I will warned you that Alfa is not a good friend when its comes to make spear parts. So you will maybe see that to find parts for the engine is a much more difficoult job than a BMW inline six.
Remember also that parts for this Alfa V6 is not cheap either, £140 for a new thermostate and if you want performance camshafts they will cost you a lot more than a BMW, and you will need to look mostly in the Italian market for them. I have had plenty of Ideas around Alfa engines during my years as an x-Alfa Romeo owner, but I have scrapped all of them because they are not good to work on, and in many ways hope less to get performance parts.
My friend back in Norway want to tune his Alfa GTV 2.0 V6 Turbo Benzina, and it will cost him £4000 for only 30-40bhp more.
So come on pal, its a reason why I drive around in my E30! I have maybe spent £30.000 in maintinance for my Italian cars during my years as a driver.
Sorry, I wrote my answer before I saw the end of the tread. I wish you good luck and if you need any help? Send me an PM! I have been with Alfa Romeos since 1994 and have plenty of contacts around.
This is an Alfa Romeo 75
I can spend some time handing out some information about Alfa Romeo.
Alfas was in the old days devided in two, you had the North and the South there you got the name Alfasud.
In the 70s to 1987 all the front wheel drive Alfas had boxer engine, and diesel for their own market in Italy. The front wheel drive Alfas was the Alfasud, Alfasprint and Alfa Romeo 33. All of those cars I mention was made by the Alfa Romeo in the Southern part of Italy. Then you had the Northern part of Alfa Romeo who was and still is based in Milan who had the main responcebillity to make the Alfa GTVs, Alfettas, Guiliettas, Alfa 90, Alfa 75 and Spider. All of the Northern Alfas from the 70s to 1987 had RWD with the gear box mounted over the rear axle "Trans Axel" who is the simmilar things you find in Porsche 924/944 and 928
All the Norhern Alfas had Twin Cam alloy engines with carburator and injection and in 1987 they also started to fit 2 liter twin spark engine into the Alfa 75 with 145bhp (Who is a nice car to drive) The V6 engine you are woriking to fit into the E30 is from the late 70s and started in the Alfa 6 as a two liter engine with carburators. You can also get the Alfa V6 with 2.5 liter (engine who was fitted in the old school GTV6) and also the 3 liter version who is the engine in this project. You can bore it up to 3.3 liter who will give you 250bhp on the fly wheel.
The 3 liter Alfa V6 is using a ECU from German Bosch who means that you can chip tune it so you have another 25bhp. The best way for "cheap" performance on a Alfa V6 is to get the camshaft from a 164 3.0 V6 QV who can give you another 5-10 bhp and the engine will sound a bit more agressive! Or you can look from Cam Shafts from an Alfa Romeo ES30 Zagato.
When you have the car up and running I would recommend you that you take an oil service ofen on that engine (every 3000 miles) and dont use cheap oil on it. Be also aware of the coolant because if you overheat the engine, its gone! Its made 100% by alloy, and the head will be gone and it will poor water into the pistions.
A good place for parts to that engine is Autodelta in London!
This is an Alfa Romeo 75
I can spend some time handing out some information about Alfa Romeo.
Alfas was in the old days devided in two, you had the North and the South there you got the name Alfasud.
In the 70s to 1987 all the front wheel drive Alfas had boxer engine, and diesel for their own market in Italy. The front wheel drive Alfas was the Alfasud, Alfasprint and Alfa Romeo 33. All of those cars I mention was made by the Alfa Romeo in the Southern part of Italy. Then you had the Northern part of Alfa Romeo who was and still is based in Milan who had the main responcebillity to make the Alfa GTVs, Alfettas, Guiliettas, Alfa 90, Alfa 75 and Spider. All of the Northern Alfas from the 70s to 1987 had RWD with the gear box mounted over the rear axle "Trans Axel" who is the simmilar things you find in Porsche 924/944 and 928
All the Norhern Alfas had Twin Cam alloy engines with carburator and injection and in 1987 they also started to fit 2 liter twin spark engine into the Alfa 75 with 145bhp (Who is a nice car to drive) The V6 engine you are woriking to fit into the E30 is from the late 70s and started in the Alfa 6 as a two liter engine with carburators. You can also get the Alfa V6 with 2.5 liter (engine who was fitted in the old school GTV6) and also the 3 liter version who is the engine in this project. You can bore it up to 3.3 liter who will give you 250bhp on the fly wheel.
The 3 liter Alfa V6 is using a ECU from German Bosch who means that you can chip tune it so you have another 25bhp. The best way for "cheap" performance on a Alfa V6 is to get the camshaft from a 164 3.0 V6 QV who can give you another 5-10 bhp and the engine will sound a bit more agressive! Or you can look from Cam Shafts from an Alfa Romeo ES30 Zagato.
When you have the car up and running I would recommend you that you take an oil service ofen on that engine (every 3000 miles) and dont use cheap oil on it. Be also aware of the coolant because if you overheat the engine, its gone! Its made 100% by alloy, and the head will be gone and it will poor water into the pistions.
A good place for parts to that engine is Autodelta in London!
Evenin all,
A little step closer to hearing some noise,
With the engine removed again to tidy up some loose ends
before it can be started we had to first sort out a working dipstick.
The old dipstick could no longer be used as it was sticking down
into a place where we had shortened the sump, so as luck would
have it, beside the hole in the block where the dipstick tube threaded
in was another hole for an oil temp sender.
so out came sender, in went shortened dipstick tube, and with the
sender cut down and welded up as a bung, it went back in to fill the
old empty distick hole.
the reason we had to cut down the original dipstick tube in height
was that the new hole for it had it right under one of the manifold
branches. So chop, chop, bend, bend and screw, screw has it left like
this...................
next up was the sump. As it was only loosely bolted up first time to
check it would clear the crossmember it was now time to bolt it up oil
tight. First up was a lick of paint...............
then get a gasket cut up and bonded down to the block...............
then fit el sumpo..............
actually just before the engine was lifted out this time we got the
gearbox mount made up. We used most of the bm mount and just made
a cradle to bolt to the box which then sat on the original mount.
with the engine removed it also gave us a chance to cut the gearbox
tunnel. The new engine and box has the gearlever 40mm more forward
of the original hole, so, half a new hole had to be cut and half the old
refilled. Which came out looking like this from underneath
and this from above.................
a ford gearlever booth then keeps the elements out in the cabin
also sorted was the rest of the exhaust system. With the 2
manifolds made we now needed a collector to run from them
into the rest of the system. There now should follow pictures of
beautifully formed pipes made on a no expence spared state of
the art computerised pipe bender. But the lotto numbers haven't
come up yet so what you get is a selection of bends robbed from
the local fast fit's waste skip, which look like this................
and a bridge piece welded in to secure this section to the gearbox
next up was the fuel pipes. The originals ran to the bm fuel tank
under the rear seat and as this was now gone and replaced with a small
fuel tank in the boot we decided to run some new pipes.
Starting in the engine bay..............
down the floor pan.................
squiggle, squiggle.................
and as we didn't want to try and follow the complex bends of
the hole where the old tank used to be we weld in some flat to take
the pipe on a straighter route...............
over the axle and into the spare wheel well....................
and plumbed into the rest of the fuel cell which is nearly complete
the trip to the scrap had also turned up a new header tank with
the right size outlets in the right places................
which has allowed us to start finishing off the water plumbing...........
we also managed to get the accelerator cable sorted. We used the
original Alfa cable with the pedal end chopped off and fitted a cross
drilled headed bolt to the bm's accelerator pedal to retain the inner cable.
The bolt isn't run up tight so as when the pedal/arm moves the cable pull
always remains straight.
Engine bays starting to look a little fuller now, hopefully smoke (of the
right sort) ain't that far away..............
Good night,
God bless,
much love.
A little step closer to hearing some noise,
With the engine removed again to tidy up some loose ends
before it can be started we had to first sort out a working dipstick.
The old dipstick could no longer be used as it was sticking down
into a place where we had shortened the sump, so as luck would
have it, beside the hole in the block where the dipstick tube threaded
in was another hole for an oil temp sender.
so out came sender, in went shortened dipstick tube, and with the
sender cut down and welded up as a bung, it went back in to fill the
old empty distick hole.
the reason we had to cut down the original dipstick tube in height
was that the new hole for it had it right under one of the manifold
branches. So chop, chop, bend, bend and screw, screw has it left like
this...................
next up was the sump. As it was only loosely bolted up first time to
check it would clear the crossmember it was now time to bolt it up oil
tight. First up was a lick of paint...............
then get a gasket cut up and bonded down to the block...............
then fit el sumpo..............
actually just before the engine was lifted out this time we got the
gearbox mount made up. We used most of the bm mount and just made
a cradle to bolt to the box which then sat on the original mount.
with the engine removed it also gave us a chance to cut the gearbox
tunnel. The new engine and box has the gearlever 40mm more forward
of the original hole, so, half a new hole had to be cut and half the old
refilled. Which came out looking like this from underneath
and this from above.................
a ford gearlever booth then keeps the elements out in the cabin
also sorted was the rest of the exhaust system. With the 2
manifolds made we now needed a collector to run from them
into the rest of the system. There now should follow pictures of
beautifully formed pipes made on a no expence spared state of
the art computerised pipe bender. But the lotto numbers haven't
come up yet so what you get is a selection of bends robbed from
the local fast fit's waste skip, which look like this................
and a bridge piece welded in to secure this section to the gearbox
next up was the fuel pipes. The originals ran to the bm fuel tank
under the rear seat and as this was now gone and replaced with a small
fuel tank in the boot we decided to run some new pipes.
Starting in the engine bay..............
down the floor pan.................
squiggle, squiggle.................
and as we didn't want to try and follow the complex bends of
the hole where the old tank used to be we weld in some flat to take
the pipe on a straighter route...............
over the axle and into the spare wheel well....................
and plumbed into the rest of the fuel cell which is nearly complete
the trip to the scrap had also turned up a new header tank with
the right size outlets in the right places................
which has allowed us to start finishing off the water plumbing...........
we also managed to get the accelerator cable sorted. We used the
original Alfa cable with the pedal end chopped off and fitted a cross
drilled headed bolt to the bm's accelerator pedal to retain the inner cable.
The bolt isn't run up tight so as when the pedal/arm moves the cable pull
always remains straight.
Engine bays starting to look a little fuller now, hopefully smoke (of the
right sort) ain't that far away..............
Good night,
God bless,
much love.
Last edited by x-works on Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
-
tailoutcharlie
- E30 Zone Addict
- Posts: 2164
- Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:00 pm
- Location: south wales
was reading about this in either practical performance car or total bmw, cant remember which,
great to see all the extra stuff on here, keep up the good work guys
great to see all the extra stuff on here, keep up the good work guys
Chris
