trying to grasp f.i.......:s

[Scrotty]

right....im planning on joining the M20 turbo gang
now i understand turbos to a point, c.r's afr's detonation charge temp etc....
but after considerable research theres somthing i cant completely get my head around.....ignition(at least ignition on n/a-fi conversions)
as far as i understand, to covert the m20 ill need a relevant sized turbo+intercooler, manifold/downpipe, all hoses, oil feed to turbo etc but whats the deal on the sparky side of things?

i want to run stock rebuilt bottom end, soo thats under 10psi boost, what do i use?my guess is a fully reprogrammable ecu is ott,soo fmu + rising fuel pressure reg?which fmu's are adjustable and i assume to use fuel pres reg at same time?not best clued up soo do these run piggy back or stand alone...just f.i ignition info please also what about keep/replace afm, injectors for the job etc

this is for b road anctics mainly but does have to be used as a daily drive on occasions soo a mild cam will be going in when checking head, just want a bit of boost please sir

[Turbo-Brown]

You can get away with an FMU, but to make an engine that's really nice to drive both on and off boost, a fully programmable ECU dealing with fuel and sparks is definately not OTT

To be honest, the standard 'i' cam is fine for use with a turbo due to it's low overlap preventing boosted inlet air and fuel passing straight into the exhaust.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with FMUs and the like. Go straight for a programmable ECU

Welcome to the Zone bt the way

[Scrotty]

why thank you, and glad to be here
soo any recommendations for an aftermarket ecu? do you still have to take it to a dyno/rolling road etc to map it or (i think i got the wrong end of the stick...again) is there software out now that you can map it from a pc usb?

and from what i read the ecu's are generaly split like 6pot ecu, 4 pot ecu etc soo surly if i fork out for a repro-blah, to be used on a M20B25, it can be used on maybe a possible future M50B25 or even S38B38?with connection/loom change of course

just a little more info as this is the only factor im struggling on...

[e30_Turbo]

There are many standalone ecu's about these days, from MOTEC to Unichip, all do the same or roughly the same thing but for me it's the way they work and how easy they are to use for us mere mortals.

Emerald is a UK based company, new software now available and the only downer is you need Mr Walker to map it, £Â£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£Ã‚£ every time!

My choice was megasquirt, all the toys and set out in a easy to use manner, fitted and mapped the costs are less than the others and with the right tools you can self map and adjust where needed. Best bet is speak to ANT 07787114963, he can supply, fit & map MS for a very resonable fee.

MS is quite well used now too, myslef, Ant, Blingsta, Dimmy, Mark, Graham, ian temple etc, so support and help is available through the zone too!

HTH, and welcome to the zone!

Mark.

[Turbo-Brown]

There aren't many cylinder-count specific ECUs out there anymore by the looks of it. The Emerald will go from 1 to 12cyls if you tell it to for example. I imagine it's the same with MS etc.

To get a proper job done mapping any ECU, you need to visit a rolling road as there's just no way that you can hold one speed / load site out on the open road. Self mapping will also only get you so far but you can only work to an AFR that you've set in a table which might not be wrong, but a tiny tweek could be better.

However, mapping on the road you'll never be able to quantify what that tweek should be or what difference it's made. The same goes for ignition mapping

Having said all that you can do a really good job mapping on the road and most ECUs, Emerald included (which now has self mapping BTW) lets you do.

Emerald also offer a flat rate mapping fee for which you get a rolling road and one of the most experienced mapping gurus in the country, all to your self.

(I don't work for Emerald BTW, but I do have one, absolutely love it and I wouldn't buy anything else)

Whereabouts in the world are you Scrotty?

[Scrotty]

uk of course cheers for all your help, its all abit foreign to me as iv never made any n/a car f.i. but by the amount of peeps who have done it and the knowledge you guys already have, along with my 'adequate' mechanical skillage....this should be easily possible/fun/pain in the arse

just to save time, which turbo do most people use on the M20 for low boost and with what ar.?
the info i found soo far looking at t3/t4 hybrid 40. 60. ish
preferably a unit with an internal wastegate as i will be attempting to make my own equal lenght manifold, cba to involve external and more room used (like to weld, love a challenge )
more reasearch and a good rusty-but-mechanicaly-sound 325isport donor me thinks

[Turbo-Brown]

There's lots of different turbos being used I think, from truck turbos to cossie T3s.

What sort of power do you want in terms of output and where it all takes place?

Something little like a T3's gonna boost early on and run out of puff up top (depending on turbo spec), something like a Holset H1C's gonna produce boost later on but should be strong to the red line.

Seems that most people who start off small, soon get bored and work their way up to something massive

[Gunni]

Save yourself the hassle and go straight to standalone right now,
in the long run everything will simply be alot easier.
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33636
check out this post for info on the timing curve,

regards to manifold and turbo selection, don´t go old, go fresh,
that means modern disel unit and very new gas turbos, GT series for instance and Holsets.
Providing quick spool while being able to maintain a big efficiency space.

[Scrotty]

thanks again for your help peeps seem a friendly bunch
im a bit of a power junkie, vauxhalls before this but ALWAYS get bored

i (like everyone else)am after a good bit of torque, full boost by 2-2.5k max and dont really mind after 5k as i dont like to rev the tits off my cars
hardly do trackdays n alike, as said mainly for b road blasts, want most torque i can get from standard bottom end, on shell v power/bp ultima with no water injection/no2 etc and to keep costs down dont want to fork out for expensive fuel pumps n turbo timers etc more hassle fitting and more to go wrong...this project is to learn about n/a-f.i conversions....then move on to bigger and better things must be reliable, no 'just a little more boost' bang...

i do have a complete 735i with an autobox sat at my brothers...apart from the 325i donor would it be much more effort to make the legendary 335i conversion and to turbo that? not bothered tbh as i just wana learn about f.i but if its a case of just gettin a few parts for the lump dump(already researched, within budget), but not much extra cost on the turbo setup(not researched), ill do that...m30 bigger using less h.g's than m20

[Turbo-Brown]

If you're only after a modest power hike and can live without a shove at high revs, I guess a T3 type thing would do you nicely.

The early 2.5 engines have a 9.7:1 compression ratio so they're limited a little in how much boost you can run and not choking them with little exhaust housings would probably be important.

The later 2.5 engines have something like an 8.8:1 CR and can happily soak up more than 1bar of boost so as far as engine prep goes, you don't need to worry too much....unless you want lots of power that is, although even then there are people in the US making huge power on mostly standard engines.

All you really need to do is select a turbo, choose an ECU, make a manifold and downpipe, mount an IC, plumb and wire the whole lot up and drive off into the sunset

[Scrotty]

anything like these... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/t3-t4-hybrid-stag ... dZViewItem well maybe thats a little too big lol

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-HYBRID-Stage- ... dZViewItem

[Turbo-Brown]

Mmmm, you hear some horror stories about those non-branded turbos.

[Scrotty]

i see your gt6 page....my girlfriends mum has a mint gt6 mkiii in the garage....been dry stored for 12 years since her father died as it was his....wonder what its worth.....
also, your '325i tt' mr.brown.....is that got a forged bottom end by any chance?

just thought surly it would be in some ways easier to do a TT setup on my 4door....2x 3:1 manifolds will be easier than 1 6:1 equal lenght? wonder what that would require, let alone theres looads of T25/T2's on ebay from R5's-S13's theyre everywhere

back to reality, is it worth buying a 'recon'd garrett/holset or just get a 2nd hand one and by a rebuild kit myself and save some $$$

[Turbo-Brown]

Blimey, not many GT6s kicking about these days (guess mine's one less ) Seem to go for over £4k for decent ones!

The current TT is just a standard early engine (the higher compression ratio one) with a pair of Skyline turbos.

I had a nightmare fitting in both turbos ending up with one high up at the back of the engine bay and one tucked down beside the block low down. No doubt there are better ways of packaging it but it made the down pipes and inlet plumbing easy to keep seperate which is why I went that way.

The other thing is that you need to double up on the oil feeds and drains. For the result I got, I'd have been just a well off using one turbo I think.

The new TT I'm working on though will have an all steel 2.8litre bottom end and (if I get it right) a small turbo followed by a big one

General concensus seems to be that 2nd hand turbos are a big risk and that a recon from a reputable source is the way to go, although that's cheaper if you supply a knackered turbo in the first place.

If you're gonna do a TT, I'd go for turbos from an R5 or something. Afterall, each one's only getting 1.25litres worth of engine feeding it.

That said, my Skyline turbos were 2nd hand and are absolutely fine. Luck of the draw I guess.

[Scrotty]

hmm me tinks ill go for just the one then lol
im going to try and do this on a budget at first, get it right (and wrong) play around, learn me ropes
IYO would a holset HX35 be appropriate?
i hear with a bit of dremel fucking you can use a manifold off a e34 525td?i guess the turbo thats used on the 525d is no good..?extra heat 'n ting'
and what intercoolers have others used and from where?
plan is, fork out for the bits i cant make (turbo, ecu, injectors etc) from the start, hoping they will last. then cut shut bodge n swear at the other bits to fit;at the same time ill be getting a better understanding of what needs to be considered when i fab up my own.


also.....i came accross that site with somthing like 100 turbo beemas....one chap from the states rekons his 328i is running stock internals, a blower plus some water inj and says he has 600bhp odd........how