Project-M45 super charger (developments)

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appletree
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Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:31 pm

Got the manifold prept up and welded this morning then went to site and did the service work thought i'd call in at the scrap yard on the way home and look for remote resivours....

look what i got :D

these mean i can mount my resivour any ware in the engine bay as long as it higher than the master cylinder.

Does any one know what the elbow bits are called and were i could buy some more?? they are ATE but i cant find them on there web site?? :?

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thank you MR SAAB and mitsi colt :D

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this is the end plate all weled up......
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and the flange and plate

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Last edited by appletree on Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:33 pm

ignore this post messed up :(
Last edited by appletree on Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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benjy
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Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:34 pm

thats some neat weldin!!!!! 8)
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Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:15 pm

benjy wrote:thats some neat weldin!!!!! 8)
Thats just what I was thinkin :cool:
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318 IS. Sold.
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Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:53 pm

The lad who did this is still an apprentice like me but hes on the welding/fabrication side of the company and i'm on the service/installation side. the company MOODY PLC make and install full "lines" in dairys from tanks and vessels to bottle fillers and heat exchangers, winkeye pumps and convayors. pritty intresting stuff and i get to travel all round the contry picking up my ebay purchases as i go :D :D
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jkarran
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Post Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:02 am

Jkaran not quite with you on the t/b inlet thing I am aiming for TB>SC>COOLER the manifold volume will be reduced with the cooler inside.
Might have got my terms a bit muddled up :mad: I meant the volume between the TB and the SC. If that contains a significant amount of air you could end up with a very lean mixture for a couple of revolutions after you snap the throttle shut. I guess by 'significant amount' I'm thinking several liters which is unlikely :)

As for the flow restriction from the cooler fins I wouldn't worry so much, a bit of turbulance through them will help efficiency no end. Have a look inside an intercooler if you get the chance, they're full of 'turbulators'. I think your dad has a good point about the square section bar if you want to keep the cooler fins solid, personally i'd still be tempted to slit them a few times to increase turbulance.

If you're still concerned by the flow restriction work out the cross sectional area you are cutting out between the fins and compare with a cooler core cross section from a ~200 brake blown car. The CooperS core is about 200x40mm in section, about 40% of that is flow path for the engine (32sqr cm) but the flow path is long and quite turbulent so if you get anywhere close to that kind of area cut out of your bars I'm sure they'll flow just fine :cool:

jk
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:42 am

Mmmm... I just spent the evening modeling my engine and blower in excel and the results are distinctly disapointing :?

My big problem is that the engine is so highly tuned to begin with that I will have to drop the compression sgnificantly (from 11.8 ) so as to be able to run pump fuel. The power gains on this decompressed base engine (9.5:1 ish) are pretty rubbish in % terms compared to the stock engine especially when you consider the mechanical losses from the SC as well :cry:

Options: Decompress it less and do whatever I can to minimise detonation, boost it more with all the inherent problems that brings (it's already at 10psig to make 20% power gain after losses!), accept the low gain and treat it as a 'project' or abondon it and flog the bits... Hmm not many good options there :roll:

Ah well, more thought needed. I guess this is why nobody else has one winkeye

Anyway, on the upside I chucked together a rough model of your engine Matt out of interest and it works a load better than mine with the blower even if you pick a very low IC efficiency! I have clearly gone with the wrong project :chuckle:

If you want a copy of the model to experiment with before you cut your pullys then drop me a PM.

jk
Last edited by jkarran on Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:08 pm

Nice project, and some really, really nice welding!!! :)
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:30 pm

For the nipples for the remote reservoir use 2002 i think it is ones i think the mitsi ones will be the wrong size iirc
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Arch roller for hire.

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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:16 pm

Cheers lads, the mitis ones and the saab ones both fit and are looking like they will work! time will tell as i am building the inlet side back up to day to fit and bleed the new resivour/set up and then fit my new KWS 4pots!! did'nt want to change to much at once and not be abel to find what was wrong if i had a problem:D
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:40 pm

appletree wrote:...my new KWS 4pots!!
...that's "WMS"! winkeye
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:46 pm

As you said before the excitment at buying/recieving "shinney bits can do funny thing to a man :D WMS sorry!
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:57 pm

Do you think my boy's dyslexic? or is it he's just too exited to write properly like wot I do? Matts dad :mad:
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Post Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:34 pm

appletree wrote:Do you think my boy's dyslexic? or is it he's just too exited to write properly like wot I do? Matts dad :mad:
:mrgreen:
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Post Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:29 pm

Got my new brakes fitted and bled last night, i hav'nt try'd them yet as i'am not insured at the moment but my dad is and we will be going for a spin when he comes back from work later today :D

a few pics of the brakes

The 4 pot caliper
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All fitted
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With the wheel fitted

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the next step in the S/C part of the progect is a new radiator i bought mainly because it was cheep but also as mines looking a little tired.

didnt relise it at the time but its for a Auto IS (american spec) and has a built in oil cooler for the Auto box oil.

Would i be able to run my engine oil through it ok? there would'nt be any trouble with the pressure/heat would there??

the two yellow caps show the top and bottom of the cooler

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As i want to put a electric fan on the car i was going to use the boss on the side of the rad and drill and tap it BSP to take this stainless plug with a(M14x1.5) thread in it, then use a normal BMW temerature switch.

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jaistanley
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Post Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:36 pm

It's a very nice idea (especially as I have a 325i auto and need an oil cooler for my S50B32 conversion!!) but I can't say if it's capable of enough heat rejection to cool the oil enough. Hmmm.....

Jai

PS. What are theEatomM60 like in comparison to the M45, size wise? They would make a good upgrade for you if you later decided to upgrade. I seem to remember them being very similar but with about twice the displacement per rev.
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Post Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:42 pm

its not overly big and is'nt in the path of the air so it must just rely on the water/coolent being cooled then passing over it and cooling the oil, which my end up undoing the work the rads just done?? :? how hot does auto gearbox oil get compared to engine oil?
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stuartgallafant
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Post Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:44 pm

matt, in regards to the electric fan conversion, thats a great idea. thats what i'll be doing with mine

however, i dont think that the oil from your engine will go through the radiator. auto box fluid is VERY thin, thinner than water in fact when its hot, and flows easier, and i think the engine oil will be too thick

i may be wrong, but thats what im led to believe

hth

the project looks fantastic by the way, you're a true inspiration!!
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Post Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:53 pm

hear you go Stuart a quick pick of my new front mounted fan.

its a 14" fan and has a reversable rotor so you can use it either infront (like me) of the rad pushing the air through or from behind pulling the air.

I'd say its the biggest fan you could easly fit in there and is just slightly bigger than the rad, i mounted it by bolting to "L" shape pieces of alloy up/down in the corners of the space infornt of the rad and then made arms that came out to meet the brackets on the fan and then painted the mounts black. what you think?? :D

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Sorry about the pic quailty, it off my phone like all the other pics but its freezing outside and i was shacking :D
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jkarran
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Post Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:00 am

Good progress there Matt,

Have you considered using the built in oil cooler for your charge cooler water, saves the weight and hassle of an extra rad? If it's not in the air flow and is in contact with the engine coolant pipes it might not be a good idea :?

When you tap the plastic to take that bung you'll need to be very careful not to let the swarf fall into the core.

I made some progress with mine (well sort of): I finally got round to trying to weld the ally plenum. I don't currently have access to an ac tig so the choice was oxy acetylene. My first few goes on 1mm scrap were encouraging. It's hard to see what you're doing as the pool doesn't glow (but the flux does :mad: ) and it turns out I bought the wrong coloured goggles. Anyway, after an hour or so I could generally butt weld 1mm sheet with the odd burn through (practice will fix that) but welding tubes to 3mm was proving a real problem :-x You need so much heat that you gont get a locally melted pool to work with, just a big flopy piece of distorted ally.

I'm sure part of it is me being a ham fisted novice but the problem of the heat annealing the metal I can't see going away :? The 3mm plate ends up so soft the plenum will inflate like a baloon winkeye

Plan B... Find someone to tig it for me without charging the earth or buy one and do it myself (which will cost the earth 8O but is my favoured option)

Plan C... Bin the ally, buy a front mount IC and go to a glass/carbon plenum, at least I know what I'm doing with that but I really like the look of polished ally on top of the engine :cool:

I've already decided to go with a glass/carbon SC outlet as the shape would be very hard for me to make (well) in ally.

jk
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Post Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:51 pm

matt, i cant see the pic!! can you take one on a digi camera, so i can get an idea of how i need mine to fit?!
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Post Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:18 pm

you should be able to see it! all the pics on the thread are off my phone all using image shack.

am away in aberdene (or how ever you spell it) all week bit if you can wait till the week end i will take sum more detail pics for you. all you realy need is 2x 1.5"x 1.5"x14" alloy angle and a four 6"ish lengths of alloy flat bar :D
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Post Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:25 am

Finally a bit of progress. I have my engine/supercharger mounts all tacked up and it all fits and looks good, I'll put a picture up when I get the chance. Once it's finish welded (I can't do it, my machine hasn't the power) I can get the engine hung back in place, move the car, then clean the garage. Hopefully that'll help speed up progress :)

Next job is the clay moulds for the inlet and outlet of the blower then relocate the shifter linkage to clear the blower inlet.

That and trying to find a decent ac tig set for the ally bits, one that I can afford :eek:

jk
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Post Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:11 pm

on the tig set side if you only need it for a bit you could hire one?

get them pics up!! winkeye
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Post Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:56 pm

where do you get your clay from jkarran ?
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Post Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:49 pm

Looking good. Loving those brakes! Looking forward to seeing the rest of this project. :cool:
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Post Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:11 am

BigKev - Ebay. Just search for 'clay' or 'air drying clay'. Your local craft/hobby store probably also stocks it, the air drying stuff has fibers embedded in it to prevent cracking.

jk
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Post Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:40 am

Hadn't thought about hiring a tig, it's not a bad plan. I'm not sure how long it'll take me to learn though and I do rather fancy having one anyway, plus it's pay day soon winkeye

Right: Progress report.

Tonight was fun. I started by nearly wiping myself out whilst turning the alloy neck that will connect SC to IC. Not sure why but the tool dug in and the work piece spat out of the lathe and bounced way up past my head 8O More care needed!

Luckilly it didn't do me any harm and I had spare stock, the next one worked out just fine. The neck is 57mm id (a bit small but space is tight) and will take a 60mm id hose. It's going to be moulded into the glass/carbon outlet. I figure this is easier and more robust than trying to make the duct outlet the correct size and shape in fiberglass.

Anyway, I started by bolting a flat alloy flange to the SC outlet (the one I origionally intended to use) , I then used hot melt glue to fix the outlet neck in the right orientation and position in the car (neck glued to flange). I also marked out the position of the troublesome chassis rail relative to the flange.

Sorry no picture of this, it was a pain in the ass to do (glue wont stick to cold ally :roll: ) and I got so mad I forgot the pics.

Next I removed the plate complete with neck and transfered them to an mdf board, drew round the plate, glued the neck to the board (well a little board on the big board then drew round that). I also marked out the chassis rail on the same board with dowel, waxed the board with mould release wax (any wax would do) to stop the wet clay warping the mdf, I doubt it'll work but it's no big deal either way. Next a frame of ally welding rod and hot melt glue was built to support the clay, this was loosly filled with scrunched foil to save on clay.

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Next the fun bit, the clay, this is messy and made me feel like a big kid. What is amazing is how quickly you can go from lumpy mess to a beautiful organic looking form with no kinks so it should flow really well. For reference incase anyone else fancies having a go that used about 2kg of clay.

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That's gone to dry for a few days.

I dread to think how long this would have taken me to beat from sheet metal as was the initial plan, I guess days and it would be a nightmare because of the constricted space for measuring/fitting.

So there we go, lost clay fiberglass moulding seems to be a very useful technique so far!

Two more pics: The completed (tacked with a toy mig before anyone rolls their eyes at the welding :o: ) SC mounts double as engine mounts, these were initially triangular (a pair, front and rear) and the plan was to slip the SC into the triangles, no such luck! What could have been very simple has required an additional: 8 turned fittings, 4 profiled tubes and a sheet metal bracket! The mounts are now a 3 part assembly, a bottom H, a top rear bar and the front top frame, recessed cap heads hold the tops to the bottom H.

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And the mounted SC. It almost looks 'stock' 8) Note the offending chassis rail accross the outlet. The steering linkage only has 1/4" to the top rail of the front engine mount.

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Post Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:14 pm

NERLY DONE YET? :cool:

DOUBT IT :P
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Post Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:31 pm

So your going to cover the whole thing with G/F, then how are you going to remove the clay ?

It's going to be a good technique(sp?) for some thing i have to try to get around on my car, similar to your shape, i need an 90 degree elbow thats 4 1/2" diameter oval one end going to a round 85mm diameter circle at the other end.

The metal tube is i guess to stop the G/F from calapsing(sp?) when you tighten the hose clip up ?
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Post Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:31 pm

appletree wrote:the company MOODY PLC make and install full "lines" in dairys from tanks and vessels to bottle fillers and heat exchangers, winkeye pumps and convayors.
No way.......Moody !!!!

Our main Competitor......
Pete don't care about colour, He would shag a rainbow if he could find the end of it....
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Post Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:03 pm

Hi
JK looks like the christmas cheer finally wore of and your really going for it, thought you could always send the skeleton bit to the tate if all else failed (if you hadn't covered it in clay). The clay bit looks realy good and should produce a nice flowing proffesional bit of gear. What sort of GRP techique are you going to use coat in resin let it dry then build up with stranded random mat? My JZR Morgan 3 wheeler replica kit car appears to have had its GRP panels produced by a process which sprays glass strand and resin onto the mold and has resulted in a very neat even finish on the "none mold side". Keep up the good work no snifing the glue. Matts Dad :D
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Post Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:15 pm

Progress report:

Sorry if the spelling is a bit iffy, I've been fiberglassing most of the afternoon and I'm probably as high as a kite :mad:

The first big problem with the clay became apparent yesterday, it's something I expected but hoped to get away with. The clay shrinks when it drys, only 3 to 4% but enough that it pulled up off the board, the frame popped out in a couple of places and the neck moved a couple of mm.

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Building a core of clay/plastic, letting it settle for a few days then finishing up in a thin skin of clay would solve this (but take far too much patience).

Finishing the surface was also harder than expected, sanding caused pits and scratches which I wasn't expecting. Best bet is get it right while it's soft and workable.

Anyway, I repaired the shrinkage cracks gaps etc with plastecine (handy as it doesn't react with resin and doesn't need to dry) and a small dremmel grinder to remove the frame 'bumps'. I also used the plastecine to protect the parts of the alloy outlet neck that the silicone hose will go onto from resin.

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Then slapped on a layer of gellcoat (doesn't seek out the tiny gaps and cracks quite as agressively as the normal thin resin).

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Once that was pretty well cured I built up the first (of 2 or 3 at a guess) layers of glass. This is fairly light 300gsm (IIRC) chopped strand mat (CSM) in polyester resin. The first layer is actually 2 to 3 layers thick over most of the mould and 4 or 5 at the flange which I aim to build up to 5mm thick, the tube can be 2.5 to 3mm. I will go uver the whole thing with a single skin of carbon/kevlar twill to finish up, partly because I love the look :cool: (It's used for the tunnel, dash seats, boot floor etc) and partly because the massive tensile strength should help the grp resist bursting when I crank up the boost winkeye

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To remove the mould (or more correctly maybe plug) I will need to get the whole lot off the mdf, a grinder, chisels and stanley knife blades are a good substitute for prior surface preperation winkeye To get the clay out... jetwasher :twisted: It isn't cured as such, just dried so it will soften and wash out.

Andy: Sounds like this would be the ideal technique for the job you describe. The ally tube is half machined to take a 60mm silicone hose, the other half will be set into the fiberglass, much simpler than trying to get the glass just right and thinner too so more flow area (which is good as it's already a bit of a bottleneck in the system).

jk
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Post Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:54 pm

jkarran wrote:
To remove the mould (or more correctly maybe plug) I will need to get the whole lot off the mdf, a grinder, chisels and stanley knife blades are a good substitute for prior surface preperation winkeye To get the clay out... jetwasher :twisted: It isn't cured as such, just dried so it will soften and wash out.

Andy: Sounds like this would be the ideal technique for the job you describe. The ally tube is half machined to take a 60mm silicone hose, the other half will be set into the fiberglass, much simpler than trying to get the glass just right and thinner too so more flow area (which is good as it's already a bit of a bottleneck in the system).

jk
Thanks a lot for the info, the pics look cool and the part you are making is going to be spot on.

How do you think the pattern of the weave(C/F) is going to turn out due to the curvey shape of the part ?

Have you got a link to the place where you got your G/F supplies from please ?
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Post Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:52 am

Thanks a lot for the info, the pics look cool and the part you are making is going to be spot on.
How do you think the pattern of the weave(C/F) is going to turn out due to the curvey shape of the part ?
Have you got a link to the place where you got your G/F supplies from please ?
Fingers crossed it's all turned out rather good. My only concern now is that the thickness of glass will foul the chassis tube and that I may not have left enough sealing area between the duct's mounting flange and the SC. Both are fixable and I'm treating the whole thing as an experiment so we'll see.

A view of the internals (plastecine scraped out - a very slow but soothing activity for the end of the weekend with my feet up, a glass of wine and a good film on the tv :) )

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It seems I was wrong about getting the duct off the mdf, one good smack and off it came, I don't think the wax has ever worked thet well before :cool: I guess sometimes you just get a bit lucky. As to how the weave will look: I think it looks pretty good, not the best I've ever made but good enough for where it's going (it looks slightly better in the pics than reality). I had to use 3 pieces of C/K to get it ot fit the complex curves, if pulled over a dry (non tacky) shape it can be 'stretched' into shape by moving the fibers around. You get it lying nerly flat, add resin with a brush then work the bubbles and stringy bits out with gloved (wet in resin) hands. This has on small 1sm sqr bubble in the kevlar, no bubbles in the (easier to work) glass, not bad for the compexity of the shape and easy to fix if I can be arsed (no need but I probably will :roll: ). Obviously it need to be trimmed to fit the SC and tidy up the outlet.

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I wa sgoing to put a 25mm port on the duct for a recirculating valve but it is physically way too constricted so I will T off the link to the IC, it'll add ~£10 to the hose but it's the right decision from an engineering point of view and in the grand scheme of things the extra £ is nothing.

I'll put a link up to the suppliers for the bits tomorrow, It's a mail order place in cornwall, not cheap but everything you could want/need, easy to order, reliable and good quality. I tink the company is CFS Ltd if anyone is desperate to google.

One more pic I forgot earlier. The inlet flange in (softer than I'd like but a damn sitght easier to work than the stainless Matt used 8O ) 5mm ally. It's bolted to the SC using a 19mm spacer atop the plate I made to replace the standard Eaton endplate with alternator (?) drive. This will be bolted to the SC, it's a tight fit, a bit of liquid gasket/glue will make it totally airtight. The inlet duct will bolt to the ally flange (3 bolts, only one drilled so far). The duct can be very lightly constructed, one layer of glass, one of kevlar sould be fine as it will never be under significant vacuum.

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I'm getting really tempted to do a blown 318iS to replace the 540 as my daily driver. Can't wait to see how yours goes Appletree.

jk