5x120 to 4x100 - adapters or redrilling?

[RobWill116]

Hi there,

Found a set of e38 style 5's 16x8 et23 which I'm looking to purchase, only downside is they're 5x120.

Tried searching on here but couldn't find anything. If I went for 4x100 adapters, the et would be too low and have a huge poke wouldn't it?

So this would leave the option to get them welded and re-drilled, whats everyones experiences of this? Can you recommend anywhere to have it done? And how much did it cost?

The other option would be 5 stud conversion?

Cheers,
Rob

[ross_jsy]

The only real option is a 5 stud conversion. Everything else is pikey and gash

[Rav335uk]

Here.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=230901

You'll need 18mm adaptoes, then you'll have a slight poke, which will need the arch lips rolling.

[Blitz]

All that headache to fit some basic E38 wheels. I'd rather spend the money to get wheels that fit.

[bab-91]

The only real option is a 5 stud conversion. Everything else is pikey and gash

+1

[Rav335uk]

All that headache to fit some basic E38 wheels. I'd rather spend the money to get wheels that fit.

Yes yes, we all know your ALL OEM..

[Demlotcrew]

I think the conversion spacers are a good solution, I certainly wouldn't have any reservations in using them.

[Rav335uk]

I'll be getting a set for my 5x120 17" Hartge and AC Schnitzer Split rims.

Or should I go against the grain and ruin them by drilling and filling Blitz??

[Blitz]

Please do. I'll look forward to seeing the pictures.

[Rav335uk]

Adaptors it is then

[RobWill116]

Ideally in the long run I'm after a set of 4x100 Mahle 16s, but seeing as they're really hard to come by that'll take some time. And the e38 wheels are costing me peanuts so will do for the meanwhile.

Adapters sound the best way for me, looked at drilling and the result is really messy. And seeing as in the long run I'll be going back to 4x100, 5 stud kind of out the question.

At the moment I've got bbs rz 15s, but they're just a tad too small for me

[Rav335uk]

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpos ... stcount=98

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpos ... tcount=178


the owner is running 42 Draft Designs adapters 20mm rear 18mm front.

[RobWill116]

Cheers for the links, definitely going the adapter route. Do you know whether he had to role his arches? I am currently running standard e30 springs so shouldn't be a problem with that, but when I get my b12 kit will i need to roll the arches? Should only be a 30-40mm drop.

[hennared323i]

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpos ... stcount=98

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showpos ... tcount=178


the owner is running 42 Draft Designs adapters 20mm rear 18mm front.

Those adaptors look an excellent bit of kit.

N reg?

[Blitz]

Its a show plate. That's not a UK car.

[GemE30]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161087297997? ... EBIDX%3AIT

[RobWill116]

I prefer the look of the 42 draft designs adapters than the ebay ones!

[Rav335uk]

The usa adaptors are a better alrounder.

[appletree]

Only thing I don't like about the US ones is that the if the kidney is say 10mm thick and the adaptor is 18mm thick then that's only 8mm for the stud over the kidney to screw in main adaptor which isn't a lot as its not like the studs are shouldered from the back. I know it says they arn't for race applications but still you don't want it in the back of your mind the next tiome your pushing on do you!

Also Kerry uses the same grade alloy iirc on his brake caliler carriers but uses steel helicoils to protect the softer alloy, it will always be a compromise..

"Why do WMS use threaded inserts?"

They are about getting the best of both worlds. Aluminium brackets are easily strong enough to take the loads created during braking, but have a few issues:

- Aluminium is a bit soft to have threads in it if the bolt is taken in and out a lot.
- They are also at risk from people fitting extra washers and/or shorter bolts etc resulting in less engagement, or over-torquing, basic human error etc.

Steel/Stainless brackets on the other hand are fine for the threads, but also have issues:
- They are heavy.
- They are also very expensive to machine.

By fitting heavy duty stainless inserts into aluminium you get the lighter bracket, but with the stronger threads! In effect the aluminium "sees" a much larger bolt/thread so it has an easier life. Other things worth noting:

1 - The inserts are 431 or 303 Stainless Steel. 431 is a VERY high grade of steel, in fact its properties and tensile strength are similar to a Grade 12.9 bolt (think ARP rod bolts etc).

2 - The inserts are fixed into the bracket with a grade of Locktite retainer that can withstand high temperatures (the softening/"disassembly temperature" is 250 degrees C) and is fully resistant to motor oil, unleaded petrol, brake fluid and ethanol.

3 - In destruction-testing we tried to pull an M10 bolt/insert out of a bracket by over torquing it. It made it to 80FtLb (twice the 40FtLb suggested for use one the car) before the Grade 12.9 BOLT stretched.

4 - Lastly this is not an untested concept: Wilwood's own USA-market brackets are aluminium with threaded inserts as well.

[DanThe]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161087297997? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Horrendous!!!

[ross_jsy]

Only thing I don't like about the US ones is that the if the kidney is say 10mm thick and the adaptor is 18mm thick then that's only 8mm for the stud over the kidney to screw in main adaptor which isn't a lot as its not like the studs are shouldered from the back. I know it says they arn't for race applications but still you don't want it in the back of your mind the next tiome your pushing on do you!

This. Why compromise on such a critical part. Do it right and do it once imo.

[Demlotcrew]

You could race with only three bolts in and the wheel wont come off. Not an issue, for road use they will be fine.

[ross_jsy]

I would just rather do it properly.

Plus, they look rather unbalanced. Obviously the effect will be limited due to it being close to the centre of rotation

[RobWill116]

I would just rather do it properly.

By properly I presumed you mean 5 stud conversion as per your earlier post?

I know what you mean, but in the long run I would have to convert back to 4 studs if I can find a set of Mahle 16s - which may take a while!

- Aluminium is a bit soft to have threads in it if the bolt is taken in and out a lot.

I won't be planning on taking the bolts off a lot, the set i've got have new tyres so once they're on they should be on for a while.

Sounds like there's a business venture there for somebody to add steel inserts to the adapters

[Motorhole]

The 42 Draft Designs solution looks pretty neat, but very expensive for no other benefit than to fit 5-stud wheels! As has been said before, a better solution is just sourcing the right wheels in the fitment you need - or getting some made up.

When the 5-stud conversion is done properly, you end up with wider track, bigger wheel bearings and big 315mm brakes - downsides: although the reduction in castor is small when done correctly, there is quite an increase in unsprung weight. Doing it just for the wheels alone is fruitless really.

[HairyScreech]

The 42 Draft Designs solution looks pretty neat, but very expensive for no other benefit than to fit 5-stud wheels! As has been said before, a better solution is just sourcing the right wheels in the fitment you need - or getting some made up.

When the 5-stud conversion is done properly, you end up with wider track, bigger wheel bearings and big 315mm brakes - downsides: although the reduction in castor is small when done correctly, there is quite an increase in unsprung weight. Doing it just for the wheels alone is fruitless really.

Agreed, the brakes is the big reason I am pushing down that route.
Track is the secondary benefit as is commonality of parts in future for a daily driver. (i'm sleeving and using non M parts)

Wheels is just a fringe benefit really.

[Demlotcrew]

The 42 Draft Designs solution looks pretty neat, but very expensive for no other benefit than to fit 5-stud wheels! As has been said before, a better solution is just sourcing the right wheels in the fitment you need - or getting some made up.

When the 5-stud conversion is done properly, you end up with wider track, bigger wheel bearings and big 315mm brakes - downsides: although the reduction in castor is small when done correctly, there is quite an increase in unsprung weight. Doing it just for the wheels alone is fruitless really.

The other issue is the steering feel, the E36> hardware is designed for a totally different wheel base/track. Just look at the distance between the outer ball joint pivot point and the tie rod pivot point on the hub, much longer than the E30

[appletree]

- Aluminium is a bit soft / to have threads in it if the bolt is taken in and out a lot.

I won't be planning on taking the bolts off a lot, the set i've got have new tyres so once they're on they should be on for a while.

Sounds like there's a business venture there for somebody to add steel inserts to the adapters

Keris quote is with regard to brakes and the caliper mounts, and the number of times you remove the calipers to change the discs/pads if it's a consern for him it would make sense to apply this to the adaptors as you have to remove your wheels to get to the brakes

Also as the adaptors have studs anyway it's not the alloy that will wear, my point was to the stud its selfs not in a helicoil in the adaptor where it's anchored. But I copied the hole helicoil section from Keris post as it was relevant.

You could race with only three bolts in and the wheel wont come off. Not an issue, for road use they will be fine.

If you can race on 3 bolts why not do away with the stud on the kidney and use proper sized counter sunk bolt and just run your 5 stud wheels with 4 nuts on then

[DanThe]

You could tiger seal the 5th bolt head on for MOT purposes innit

[appletree]

You could tiger seal the 5th bolt head on for MOT purposes innit

Job done!

or just tiger seal the wheel on and save your self a load of agro!

[HairyScreech]

The 42 Draft Designs solution looks pretty neat, but very expensive for no other benefit than to fit 5-stud wheels! As has been said before, a better solution is just sourcing the right wheels in the fitment you need - or getting some made up.

When the 5-stud conversion is done properly, you end up with wider track, bigger wheel bearings and big 315mm brakes - downsides: although the reduction in castor is small when done correctly, there is quite an increase in unsprung weight. Doing it just for the wheels alone is fruitless really.

The other issue is the steering feel, the E36> hardware is designed for a totally different wheel base/track. Just look at the distance between the outer ball joint pivot point and the tie rod pivot point on the hub, much longer than the E30

This and the effect is not to be underestimated.
The e36s steering angles don't match up, I took a look at it a while ago, the e36 bits wont give enough inside steering angle and Z4 bits will give too much. Tyre scrub will be significant.
I have not found a suitable knuckle yet but meant to take a look into E46 ones.

Adjusting the steering angles on the hubs might be possible with a strong enough jig but it doesn't change the castor thing.

[Motorhole]

I have not found a suitable knuckle yet but meant to take a look into E46 ones.

Can get a complete E46 strut assembly (strut, kingpin etc) off Ebay for £20. Tempted to get one just to offer it up and take some measurements, compared with my current E36 setup.

[HairyScreech]

If got a knuckle at home, just don't have the strut top positions etc.

Ill dig up the track widths etc tonight as something with a similar track width vs wheel base will be a start to search from, the e36 is just too long and lacks the castor of the e30.

[HairyScreech]

Did a little bit of checking when I got home, one of the issues with the e36 bits is the steering angles, which is largely affected by the width to wheel base ratio.

Constructing a few lines from the track width to the center point of the rear axle and checking the angle they produce gives me.

E30 - 30.61 deg included angle.
E36 M3 - 29.51 deg included angle.
E46 - 30.86 deg included angle.

Now provided that these cars are set up for neutral scrub radii then the e46 hubs might solve the steering angle issues.
That is given the castor etc works out as well.

[davelarge]

Just run adapters if you plan on going back to a 4x100 wheel in the future anyway, most people that have bad things to say about them have never used them!

I had 5x130/4x100 adapters when I had porsche wheels and never had a problem, I also had a welded diff so extra strain would have been put on the wheels compared to normal road use and still they where fine. I think they have a bad rep because it's normally 17 year olds with VW's who use them and don't torque them up correctly and they end up having a wheel fall off.