m3's on a false pedastal?

[march109]

Dont get me wrong coz i love the e30 M3, they look gorgeous and have alot of history in motorsport but at the end of the day they are very dated now and for alot less money you could have an integra type 'r' which would leave an e30 m3 on track or on straight roads and twisty country lanes.

Excuse me? Bring your Integra Type-R anytime!

Here we go

[treeseries]

i personally think your paying for the history more than anything else. and some1 said "you can buy impreza's for £3k but thats not the point" but i think it is. i'd sooner buy an impreza than an m3 and i bet that they do everything better than an m3 too as do most the cars mentioned. all that crap about cosworths is fair enough cos they too are of similar power and age but i find it very hard to believe that the same driver in an m3 and a porsche gt3 that they wouldnt set a quicker lap in the gt3. its bollocks whoever wrote thats an idiot. i think any standard boxster would thrash an m3 provided it was the same driver in both cars. its no good pitting a novice against a pro. theres an e30 318is that does sub 9's of the nurburg but i couldnt get a veyron round in that time.

[Onz]

just turbo the M3!

or get the alpina version ;)

[Messenjah]

or if you wanna go really fast for about 10k stick a big hp cossie engine in a 5 linked mk1 escort .... thats whast a guy called mick did with the help of wayne at WPE (wacky performance engines) and they took it to the ring and took the record away from zakspeed for the fastest lap of the ring in a mk1 escort..... with their Road car on road tyres competing with traffic on track unlike the zakspeeds pure blood race car with no traffic ...

[Messenjah]

with an 8.36 lap ..

[suchy]

Firstly I'd like to say I'd love an E30 M3 and I also love original 3dr Cossies, MK1 Mexicos, RS2000 even MK1 Lotus Cortina, but that is not the point here. I totally agree with Fuzzy that Cossie lumps are easy to mod, so are Skyline engines!! This debate is whether is worth it's classic iconic status and hence market value. As long as people are willing to pay the amounts asked (I myself would) then I guess so. A proper Evo Integrale or an RS500 still command big bucks and the Lancia melts in the rain!! But again is apparently in the driving experience and positive feedback from the cars. I've never had the pleasure of driving either and only when you own one and drive it properly and get used to it, can one explore it's limits and rewards. I personally wouldn't get into someone else's M3 for a blast up the road and instantly say 'yes this car is fantastic' as I wouldn't drive to the best of my abilities in a borrowed £10K+ car.
Now Fuzzy's car I would cause it's just an old touring with a sierra lump chucked in it

[suchy]

Oh and I did have the unfortunate chance of driving/fighting with an MGBGT once- it was hideous. My old VW Type3's were better. Shite car.

[pacerpete]

An MGB is an austin cambridge in a Laura Ashley frock, a shocking piece of scrap for those who have a pig iron and ferrous oxide fetish !

The only people who ever question an M3s status are those who have never owned or driven one for any length of time .

[suchy]

An MGB is an austin cambridge in a Laura Ashley frock, a shocking piece of scrap for those who have a pig iron and ferrous oxide fetish !

as were most British 'sports cars'

[topbananabm]

Wow some good comments and some shocking comments . However the M3 is fantastic car for handling its not fast nowadays, but 20 years ago it done so well on the track and thats where they belong. The intregrale was meant for rally's , however you got to remember that the M3 is non turbo unlike the delta and still producing nearly the same power what if you bolt on turbo on to the S14 engine im sure it would leave that delta behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People got to remember there are not many M3's about i think only 17,000 (need to check out correct figues) were produced etc i would say alot of them might have been written off by now so they are getting rarer.

Look at the M1 the 1st m power cars how many were produce and now look how much they are worth.

If you want to buy a jap car go ahead it will loose alot of money and there are so many of them about ,yeah they are quick anything quick with a turbo.

if an e30 m3 had a similar power output as a scooby do im sure the e30 will eat the scooby up for dinner on the track. im sure theres a clip on you tube where an e30 turbo blows away E46 m3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I took the m3 out the weekend and boy it put a smile on my face it aint quick as my touring but im happy

drive a e30 m3 around the track and you will see y a great buzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Karan]

would love to have a proper go in one

[Card]

I have to agree on the track they are fantastic i race an M3 E30 in the Kumho and had the chance to buy a sorted E36 this year but stuck with the E30 as i just love the car.

With the right power it keeps up with most thing on a track unfortunaly to get the right power it is not cheap.

I just don't agree with the fifth gear film as before we went into Kumho we ran it as a trck day car with just the interior stripped and a cage in it and not a lot of cars except for the supercars or car costing 4-5 times as much could get away from us unless they had been modified themselfs.

Get one on a track for a day and you would agree i have driven moden cars on a track Lotus excige, Audis, Renualt and none of they are anywhere near the feel and experiance.

Just my opinion.

[Fushion_Julz]

Gotta add my 2p...

The E30 M3 is a classic...It is rising in value and, for the short term, will continue to do so. The Sierra Cosworth and the Mercedes 190 Cosworth are in the same category.
Other E30s (with the possible exception of the 325 sport, the Motorsport Cabrio and the special/tuning house editions) are basically "old bangers" and are at best holding their (low) price...

Same goes for standard Sierras and standard Merc 190s...

If you want a better *performance* car there are many out there...all more modern and mostly all cheaper to buy and to run than an E30 M3 (or cossie or 190). However, if you want a *useable* classic that will appreciate in value and provide plenty of enjoyment on a track, then the M3 is (pretty much) unbeatable.

They STILL can win races outright against much more modern machinery and are vastly more capable in the right hands than many more powerful and (on paper) faster cars.

Even when new they weren't about straightline speed...certainly not the road versions.

I've driven Sierra cosworths...they aren't as good as an E30 M3: the driving position (for a start) is just Sierra and horrible...I'm sure they make excellent track/race cars, though, as you can make most cars handle on the track given the right knowledge...I used to race a self-prepped Hillman Hunter GLS and have won trophies with it, especially in the wet!

I have also driven a friends' standard Integra type R....That is a great car: very much in the E30 M3 mould. However it is FWD and that lets it down for "enjoyment" factor...There is no doubt that the 15 years or so between the 2 designs shows, though. The Type R is fast...especially in a straight line...with around the same bhp as an M3.

It's all about the chassis with the M3...A good driver will appreciate that and be able to enjoy it to the max on a road or on a track. An average driver will be better off with a FWD car (such as the Type R or a CRX, for example) or with a car with much larger power figures for "point n squirt" style speed.

The M3 has more grip than power...much akin to a (say) a Radical sports car compared to a GT2 sports car...To exploit the potential of the car you need to bear that in mind and drive accordingly

Horses for courses (or drivers) in the driving stakes....But for classic car value, that is why the E30 M3 costs what it does...
To the person who said they would have one at circa £5k, that is still (just about) possible....I know of a race prepped one with 250bhp approx from 2.3litres that is for sale at around £7k, for example...

[HairyScreech]

But for classic car value, that is why the E30 M3 costs what it does...

bingo. same as the hateful mk1 escorts catchng 5 figure prices now.

my ka could potentialy lap as fast as an m3 but its never going to be more than an evil little slag.

[Speedtouch]

The MGB GT has rather fetching Pininfarina-designed styling, and dirt-cheap running costs: for instance, I recently blew a piston in mine and rather than going to the extraordinary expense of new pistons at £100, I was able to buy a complete replacement engine locally off E-bay for £35 and it runs very sweetly (I didn't even bother to check the ignition timing), and a doddle to fit. That's part of their appeal: exotic looks without the expense of exotic parts prices, and very DIY maintainable, plus they are comfy and easy to drive over long distances, living up to the GT name. They can be made to go very well, and have had considerable successes in rallying and even at LeMans.

A new water pump on my 325i Sport on the other hand, is around £80 from the stealer

[pacerpete]

[quote="Speedtouch"]The MGB GT has rather fetching Pininfarina-designed styling, and dirt-cheap running costs: for instance, I recently blew a piston in mine and rather than going to the extraordinary expense of new pistons at £100, I was able to buy a complete replacement engine locally off E-bay for £35 and it runs very sweetly (I didn't even bother to check the ignition timing), and a doddle to fit. That's part of their appeal: exotic looks without the expense of exotic parts prices, and very DIY maintainable, plus they are comfy and easy to drive over long distances, living up to the GT name. They can be made to go very well, and have had considerable successes in rallying and even at LeMans.

A new water pump on my 325i Sport on the other hand, is around £80 from the stealer [/quote


Maurice, do you have a beard by any chance ?

PS GT = Grim Turd !

[suchy]

hahaha yeah but they are so so rubbish!!!! Ok I'm not dissin' your MG I very much dig classic & vintage classics but come on, they are not going to be involving to drive- you have to fight them, and they always have so much steering slack, rubbish brakes, and no compression worth mentioning (I could prob blow into a bag and get higher compression than your engine produces!!) The styling on older cars is infinately superior to todays equivilent also so thiks is by no means me slagging them off

[Speedtouch]

Hehe, no beard, nor even a pipe rack fitted on the dashboard! I am however quite partial to ale and steak & kidney pies.

It gets me around while I'm fixing up the 325i anyway. The steering is actually very taught on mine, if a little heavy owing to no PAS. You're right about the crap brakes though!

[suchy]

Oh btw I very much agree with Fushion Julz' viewpoint just couldn't be arsed to write my own version

[Andyboy]

The MGB has a huge parts backup because you need parts.....all the time. It was built to a shocking low standard and I doubt many got past 100'000 miles without the B Series breathing its innards all over the road. They are also abysmal to drive - awful driving position, cramped at a GT with absolutely terrible suspension - and I mean really, really bad. They don't even look pretty although a 62-3 pull handle roadster in Iris blue with the chrome 'skull cap' wheeltrims on vented steels has an appeal.

Pistons? When was the last time an M10 needed a new piston? Can you buy an MGB water pump for £19? That's what a good pattern M20 pumps costs me.

What I don't get is that there were so many better cars that the MGB. The Triumph TR's were all pretty awful, with only the TR7 actually having any kind of ride comfort and handling. The Stag at least looked and sounded great and I can understand why you'd pay for a nice one. A rubber bumper MGB has to be the worst car I have ever driven, simply terrible in every respect. Slow, soggy handling AND a crap ride, feeble brakes and just general nastiness. The crackle finish dash is just laughable. The fact that a TR7 is worth less than an MGB says it all. They were both shite in a BL sort of way but at least the Triumph drove like a proper car and not something based on a 1954 Austin A50.



But each to their own. Me, I abhor the things.

[Speedtouch]

OK, points taken. I only bought mine because it was going cheap and I had too much red wine one Sunday afternoon, and my dad kept harping on about them - in fact, I may give it to him soon!

Can you suggest a 'good pattern' M20 water pump, as I need one.

Thanks,

[suchy]

OK, points taken. I only bought mine because it was going cheap and I had too much red wine one Sunday afternoon, and my dad kept harping on about them - in fact, I may give it to him soon!

[Fushion_Julz]

Can you suggest a 'good pattern' M20 water pump, as I need one.

Thanks,

Buy a genuine one...They aren't that expensive and are much better with the correct number of impeller vanes....

[Speedtouch]

Snag is, they're around £80!

[harry_p]

damn, i was hoping this was going to turn into another m3 v integrale post with all sorts of silly claims about how disadvantaged the m3 was (boo hoo etc)

I wanted an M3 so i bought an m3. i knew it wasnt going to be the fastest, mostpractial, best built, cheapest to run car for the money, but i don't car. i wanted an e30 m3 so i bought one.

It sounds corny as hell, but there's definately more to a performance car than spreed and grip. a mk4 golf tdi can probably generate as much lateral G as an m3, yet also has the magic ability to make it feel like the steering wheel is connected to the road wheels by marshmallow.

are they 'worth' the asking price? well obviously they are. if people weren't paying decent money for them, people wouldnt be asking what they are for them.

are they 'worth' the prices you see banded about on a pure performance and technical ability basis? hell no!!

but then, you could say pretty much the same about any e30 yet we're all still here

[Fushion_Julz]

Not so sure on the last sentance, Harry...

A decent 325i is a fair performance saloon, tbh....
You can get a reasonable one for <£1k...it will, given a reasonably healthy motor, push 170bhp at the flywheel and do 0-60 in <8s and around 135mph top speed...

A few hundred pounds spent on the suspension and some basic performance mods will make it 95% as fast as a healthy E30 M3 and a whole lot more satisfying to drive than most hot hatches or other (more modern) saloons.

I doubt you could find another vehicle for that sort of price that provides the same sort of performance and handling.

I can think of a few:
Alfa 75 V6 (but the boot is tiny and the build quality appalling)
Nissan 200SX Mk1(not a genuine 4 seater and also has a tiny boot space, horrendous cost of spares)
Toyota Supra 2.8i (also not a true 4 seater)
Golf GTI 16V Mk2 (FWD, but the nearest match)
Honda CRX VTEC (FWD)
Peugeot 206 1.9GTi (FWD...but also pretty good if you can find one that has remained screwed together!)

But a few only, really...

If you want/need 4 doors, then you are down to BMW, Alfa or VW Golf/Jetta
If you want an estate, BMW only, really...Maybe include the Peugeot 505GTi estate, although it hardly handles as well as the E30 Touring...

[harry_p]

you can buy a reasonable e36 for the price of a resonable e30 with the same size engine, and it will be a 'better' car in most ways, they just don't have the extra something that obviously draws people to the e30 for whatever reason.

[Fushion_Julz]

OK...hands up!

you can get an E36 325i for <£1k, too...but they aren't as fast as an E30, in general, due to the extra weight....

Can't find an E36 328i for <£1k, yet...That would offer similar performance to an E30 325i

also doubt you'd yet find an E36 coupe or touring for <£1k with a 6 cyl motor...so you're stuck with 4 dr only unless you have more $$s, but then there is a much larger choice of potential vehicles

[gnarkillius]

This is going to sound cheesy, but, art is always worth more than the sum of it parts.

[suchy]

you can get an E36 325i for <£1k, too...but they aren't as fast as an E30, in general, due to the extra weight....

I disagree, the multivalve engine produces more horsepower, revs better and has better chassis dynamics making it a better and faster car. It's just that the team of designers on the E36 were too busy swinging from tyres on ropes and eating each others fleas and bananas to design a good looking car. Bloody souless piles of shite. Price of an E30 M3 compared to an E36 M3 says it all!! I'd have an E36 M3 as a track day car as they're dirt cheap and fine for that!! Either that or fantastic doner cars for E30's!!

[dn808e2]

i took my for the ride last sunday, man, or God all mighty , swiched the stereo off and all i could hear the sound of exhaust and tacho says 4000+ . i wish BMW would produce body shells ,so i could
go and by brand new shell, (my is still in very good shape) but all i #ve heard they do not do shalls any more,

[fuzzy]

I totally agree with Fuzzy that Cossie lumps are easy to mod, so are Skyline engines!! This debate is whether is worth it's classic iconic status and hence market value.i personally wouldn't get into someone else's M3 for a blast up the road and instantly say 'yes this car is fantastic' as I wouldn't drive to the best of my abilities in a borrowed £10K+ car.
Now Fuzzy's car I would cause it's just an old touring with a sierra lump chucked in it

im not doubting the iconic status of the m3 but its just not the car for me and if i was spending £10000 on a car id rather do what ive already done again in producing something unusual. something plain that ive taken and turned it into a fast sleeper to be abused on a daily basis because thats what performance cars are for .none of this pampering in heated garages to be taken on a gentle sunday drive once a month for fear of damaging it

[suchy]

id rather do what ive already done again in producing something unusual. something plain that ive taken and turned it into a fast sleeper to be abused on a daily basis because thats what performance cars are for .none of this

and thats why we're here 'cause we're passionate about our cars. Cars to be driven properly. I'm not all about pampering my car- yeah sure hours of working/tweaking/cleaning but MANY more hours of driving the nuts out of it. A most pleasurable hobby if you ask me- sure beats a walk around a golf course!!!!
I would still modify a 15k M3 'cause that's what I like and it would get driven to the edge of my limits regularly

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Wasn't the Ka(k) test condicted on a go-kart circuit? In other words, a test to back up the programmes proposed suggestion?

How would the Ka compare with a sorted (ie showroom stock condition) M3 around a proper circuit? One where the actual limits of both cars can be reached, ie top speed, handling and geometry, braking limits could be tested?

I guess we need to remember the media will do what it can to achieve sensationalist statements and get people talking about its media.

[harry_p]

none of this pampering in heated garages to be taken on a gentle sunday drive once a month for fear of damaging it

mine did around 17k miles last year, in all weathers, loaded up with the family, or just me on my own down a twisty road.
we're not all flat cap wearing polishing bufties