Engine died on me .... help please!!!

Post Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:27 pm

Drove home from shops earlier .... nearly home when the engine died. There was no bang just a small whine and the dash lights came on and I drifted to a halt. Tried just once to restart and nothing ...starter turned and funny noise came from engine.
Has the cam belt snapped ???
If so has the engine been damaged permanently and is it something a novice can repair ???

Please help as I have a sinking feeling about it.

Thanks ,

G

Post Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:38 pm

Sounds very similar to when my bros Pug snapped it's belt. Tahe the distributer cap off and then start / get someone to start the car for you. if the rotor spins it's somthing else. If not the belt is toast.
If so you can put a new head on although I don't suggest a novice doing it unless you have a lot of time! Be easierin the long run to buy a good second hand engine and drop it in. For your sake I hope it's some dodgy electrical connection.

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:57 am

Thanks Widge,
If the belt has gone then how much damage can there be as I was literally driving round a corner at no more then 10mph when it happened ?
It is just that my pride and joy from 86 still has just 43000 miles on the clock from new and the thought of a new engine hurts !!!

Thanks again

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:18 am

The engine will be scrap. I'm sorry. Evaen if you were doing 10mph the engine is doing 1000rpm minimum, which means the pistons are moving quite fast! If you are very very lucky there may be little damage but it will cost you too much to find out as the head will have t come off. You could always take the rocker cover off and see if any of the rockers are broken. I think you'll be looking for a low milage replacement engine, as it's by far the cheapest way to fix it.

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:39 pm

Let's get the cam cover off, check the rockers and see if the cam turns before we consign the engine to the dustbin!

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:41 pm

P.S There's a recent thread with someone who had the cam pulley break up. (same effect as belt breaking), and they got away with it.

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:48 pm

Hi again .... Widge - the good news - had the distributor cap off and the rotor arm turns when starter motor engages. Tried again having put the cap back on and the engine made a pop like a small backfire noise. Things are turning but I wonder what the pop was ..... didn't sound too good !!!

thanks for the input Brian - any new diagnosis, guys ??

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:53 pm

I' dtake the cambelt covers off and see if there is any sign of the belt jumping a tooth, ie missing tooth / very loose belt. other wis I don't really know with out looking at it. Can you describe what happens when you try to start it in detail?

I'm glad to hear the belt hasn't broken, didn't mean to be a doom merchant

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:56 pm

For an engine to run, it needs to be mechanically intact, to have fuel injected at the right time, and to have sparks at the right time.
First thing to check is if you have sparks. Pull off a spark plug lead, push it on to a spare spark plug, hold the metal base of the plug hard against the metal of the engine, turn the engine over and see if it sparks. (once every two turns of the crankshaft).

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:59 pm

When trying to start the engine ... just sounded like electrical turning and whirring .... sounded like the cam was turning but no spark and then a pop.
Will try to check the sparks but running out of time today. Sounds like I need a helper for checking the plugs which I won't have tomorrow. Bentley says you can check the plugs by just resting the plug on the engine .... that work ok?? And what part of the engine should I hold it to ??
Checked the coil and that is ok.
Don't want to keep turning the engine over as I don't want to do any damage or any more damage.
G

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:17 pm

Take the rocker cover off and check all the rockers are OK. If these are all right, I don't think theres any mechanical damage to your engine, that will damage it by turning it over.
Laying a plug on any metal part of the engine will be OK.
In what way have you checked the coil?

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:47 pm

Hi Brian......
Will take the rocker cover off tomorrow and check under it. Anything in particular to look for or will it stick out like a bulldogs whatnots ?
Also have a helper to check sparks from the HT leads.
As far as the coil goes just checked the voltage across the positive terminal which is the next step after checking the HT leads. Voltage was the same as the battery .... 14.45 volts.
My dad reckons the ignition is toasted or failing that an air block or water in the fuel line....... we had a huge thunder storm the night before it happened with an inch of rain in 20 minutes!! Checked the interior though and no wet patches anywhere to be seen.
Will let you know the outcome tomorrow,
Thanks again for your help,
G

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:21 pm

You're looking for a broken rocker (from the camshaft to each valve stem). Also, while you're in there, check you have cylinder head bolts with torx heads, not hex heads. The hex headed ones have a habit of breaking, and the broken head jamming under one of said rockers. Not good.
You need to check the voltage at the negative side of the coil when the engine is cranked. Should pulse.
Don't pull the king lead out of the distributor and crank the engine,or you might spike the ECU.
My money's on crank position sensor at the moment, but a bit of logical fault finding will hunt it down.

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:29 pm

Broken rocker, a la ici

Broken rocker photos courtesy of Craigeeb and his unlucky motor

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:41 pm

Bloody hell, Widge, I thought that was a picture of GDBN rockers.

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:42 pm

What's the extra idle switch for?

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:44 pm

Sorry should have been more obvious :lol:

He wanted to know what a broken rocker looked like.
My flatmates Citroen actually broke it's camshaft when th timing belt broke!

but then that is a shim head.

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:45 pm

Nitrous Oxide, only kicks in when on full throttle

He's a bit......well........different :lol:

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:00 pm

Thought it might be.
Any connection with the broken rockers?

Post Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:15 pm

I think so, his timing belt snapped and he'd only replaced it in december. Of corse he denys it

Must be, or a faulty belt. Anyway he's putting a 2.5 in now as oppose the 2.0, and he's keeping the nitrous :lol:

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:34 am

Hi guys ..... all is revealed I think.
Just as I was taking the rocker cover off I noticed that the coolant tank was dry ... very sorry for not noticing before. Checked oil level and it was off the chart .... and lo and behold ... coolant sitting under rocker cover !!
Looks like it is a blown head gasket - with the sudden cutout and failure to start do you think the engine has seized ? And why would it suddenly fail. Would there not be any warning signs first ?? Coolant level was checked 2 days before it happened when I was checking the aircon not working. Only experience of a blown head gasket was my old Xr3 when I was 18 and that just pressurised the coolant system.
If the engine has seized is it goodbye engine ??
There was no overheating before it happened either - seems strange to me.
Further help and thoughts would be appreciated,
G

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:08 am

Just been looking on the zone for similar probs ....seems unlikely to be the gasket -more like a cracked head. Sounds expensive. Any chance of a prob with the water pump ? HAd a garage replace the water pump just before christmas - any chance they have screwed sometthing up ??

G

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:43 pm

This still doesn't explain why it stopped. Coolant under the rocker cover is a sign of a head cracked in one of the cam bearings, but this wouldn't in itself affect the running of the engine.
It will use plenty of water, and your oil will turn into grey porridge and block all the vent pipes, but it will still run.
I ran a M20 B25 in this condition for about 3000 miles a few years ago. Changed the oil and filter a couple of times in that time, and fed gallons of water through it, but it still ran as normal up to the day I binned it.

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:51 pm

i did the same to a 325 2000 miles of german track action
but never just stopped!

my friends earth lead worked lose on his rover and just cut out dead !

check earth leads wiggle them and have a look around

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:02 pm

If the engine has been really cooked the rings will stick in the pistons and will take lots of high speed turning (towing) to start it.

When the engine is being started does it sound like it's spinning over really quickly?

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:11 pm

I suppose it did sound quite quick but I haven't done anything harsh to it to completely cook the engine. Sounds worse now than it did before !!
What would turning over quickly mean ?

Post Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:29 pm

If your car is leaking coolant, either through a split pipe or a dodgy head gasket the coolant level will drop.

The temp guage will rise as the coolant heats up due to lack of flow, once the coolant level has dropped past a certain point, there will be no coolant present on the temp sensor, the guage will then drop back down as it can't read the temp of coolant as its all leaked/burned away.

Your then driving along quite happily, your temp gauge looks OK, but the engine is not being cooled. This will cook your motor by driving along at 35mph in 5th gear. You don't have to thrash it to cook it.

If the car is turning over quickly it could mean there is low compression pressures in the cylinders, no compression means no go I'm afraid. I'm hoping Im wrong...

If I were you I would make sure the oil level is ok, fill up the water and try a tow start to get it going, if it runs, stop the engine, pull the head off and get it pressure tested, if it passes the test get it skimmed and fit it back on the engine and then do something to tackle the sticky rings issue.

It may be much easier to drop in a known good engine though.

Sorry if I sound like a doom-messenger

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:50 am

Had a proper rather than cursory look under there this am. Head mounting bolt has sheared off . Can't see the head of the bolt anywhere around the cam shaft. So I guess I'll be looking at least a new head. Any ideas where the bolt head can have got to ??? And any more damage it can have done ??

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:59 am

Possiably warped the head but the head of the bolt should be in there some where as it cant go any where else. def head off and gasket but that should be it but cant guarntee that as i aint there

sorry 4 ur loss mate

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:12 am

I take it they are hex headed bolts then.
As to where the bolt head has gone - anything from a previous owner finding it and just removing it without doing anything else, through sitting harmlessly in a corner, to having been punched right through the head by the camshaft or a rocker.
All this still wouldn't cause your car to cut out like it did though.
Wonder if its stripped teeth off the cambelt without breaking it?

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:14 am

Good point jammed the cam , stripped teeth off belt , ouch

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:20 am

Thx daddy ,
Keep reading about having the pressure tested after head problems occur - is that done with the head still fitted or is it taken off first ? And I wouldn't have a clue how to try to translate that into danish !!!!
I'll bo back and see if I can find the bolt head ... is it not likeky to have damaged the cam shaft ??

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:22 am

pressure testing is done with the head off

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:27 am

What's the best way of turning the cam when I have the rocker cover off to check the belt where it rests on the cam ... just put it in gear and try to push it ???

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:51 am

Have the offending items to hand now ... the head and washer were just sitting under the cam ... will try to check the belt - if that looks ok then should i just put a new bolt in and drive it the nearest garage to have the head gasket replaced, new cam belt and then see if she survives ??
Don't have much money for costly checks .......