mk2 golf vs e30 bmw

[orangecurry]

E30Beemerlad - what mods have you done to your car then?
Sorry if everyone else knows already - I'm new here

[E30BeemerLad]

Orangecurry - i've only had the car since easter and am new to the scene myself.

Engine mods are: ported & polished head, piper fast road cam, re-mapped ecu/chip, K&N panel filter in standard airbox, FSE power boost valve, scorpion system(on standard manifold). Power figures are from a rolling road my mate had done about 4 years ago when the mods were carried out, so may not be making that still as it was 50K miles ago!

[dazleeds]

beemerlad

arent you forgetting 1 of your mods????? Daz

[Lowm3]

Yeh rags its finished mate, what rims were you selling?

you got something else for the m3?

We will be taking daljs to stonor park show tomorrow, on the dubcircle stand, see if you get time to come down, should be a good day.

[orangecurry]

when you say 192BHP, is that at the wheels or at the flywheel?

I'm very impressed that such gentle mods release so much extra power!

But all that can't have cost Ԛ£500 including the car now can it?

[E30BeemerLad]

lol daz - can't think of anything else in the engine dept, but do cut in if you can think of anything.

Want a BBTB for it next. Widge got himself a steal for Ԛ£50 from Cabrio327i

Must must change that cambelt though, it's been on there for 5 years/50K now!!!!!

[E30BeemerLad]

when you say 192BHP, is that at the wheels or at the flywheel?

I'm very impressed that such gentle mods release so much extra power!

But all that can't have cost Ԛ£500 including the car now can it?

that's ayt the flywheel mate. All of those mods cost well in excess of Ԛ£3K including the labour. 2 different mates owned it before me and I have a folder with about Ԛ£8K worth of refceipts for mods and maintentance.

Mate i got it from dropped a bollock really letting it go for Ԛ£500, but i wasn't going to argue!! The bodywork on it is a bit rough and the diff is noisy, but otherwise, it's pretty tight elsewhere.

[dazleeds]

dnt you have a bottle in ya boot???
or have i been wrongly informed mate?? Daz

[E30BeemerLad]

lol daz - there is a bottle in my boot, but it's a 2 ltr pepsi bottle full of water, just in case!!!!!!!

[tomstickland]

loves eating boxsters now, and even kept up with an r32 the other day, but we are sure the r32 was not going for it properly..

I've been out on Evo (as in Evo magazine, not Mitsubish Evo) forum meets and tussled with a Boxster S and a Golf R32. This was in the 150BHP 900Kg Astra. In a straight line on a dry road then the acceleration of all three was very well matched in the 30-90mph sort of area. If you look at the 1/4 mile times then the Boxster is low 14s, the Astra was low 15s, and an R32 is also low 15s. So in real world conditions on A and B roads there was very little in it.

On twisty B roads then I could keep up with the Boxster. The owner admitted that he was very surprised, but it was a genuine keeping up. Now, if both cars were taken to the limit then I'd expect the Boxter to be faster. But that's the point really. On public roads there is a limit based on the fact you can't see round corners.

The R32 followed me down a load of B roads in mid Wales and the owner complimented my driving; I think he was having to concentrate to keep up. The straight line performance of the R32 is not startling TBH. I thought I was pulling away slightly on 40-60mph acceleration parts.

I had one other performance comparison of note and that was following a new Elise with the Toyota 190BHP engine in it. That pulled away from me down the straights, but I managed to hold on round the corners so that by the end I was still quite close behind.

All the above are just as it happened. So the point is that a reasonably well set up 150BHP FWD hatch can keep up with a lot of exotic machinery in real world situations.

However, on a wet road following an R32 I had to give up before I went through a hedge backwards. I just couldn't match the pace. I didn't have the nerve to do it. The R32 driver was really going for it. I guess the 4wd system just gave him that much more confidence.

That 192BHP figure. Is that for a 2.0 16v on std induction? If so then I'd be a bit dubious that it's quite that much. I've seen the Vauxhall 2.0 16vs (great engine) make around 175BHP on std induction with similar mods. Bearing in mind that rollind roads can be slightly random. Would be interesting to see 1/4 mile times.

[bryang]

Just for info, UK spec Imprezzas are quickish off the line but the performance fades badly once your past a ton thirty...The "at the wheels" figure is around 140BHP...Thats from a claimed 215BHP

See how much power 4WD saps.........

[orangecurry]

ahh but the Impreza is still quite fun GETTING to 130

I had gotten used to mine, and didn't appreciate how fast I was driving generally, until I glanced down at the speedo on a twisty B-road (that I know very well) and I was doing 115;

that's why I have an E30 (and a mk1 GTi); you can have big fun going to and beyond the limit WITHOUT the risk of killing yourself; all accidents in Imprezas are BIG ones because the 'limit' is way off out there.

ps - Not sure about your figures of 140 bhp at the wheels (unless that's both front AND rear axles

pps - where is it exactly you'll be going past 130?

[psychochild187]

ahh but the Impreza is still quite fun GETTING to 130

I had gotten used to mine, and didn't appreciate how fast I was driving generally, until I glanced down at the speedo on a twisty B-road (that I know very well) and I was doing 115;

that's why I have an E30 (and a mk1 GTi); you can have big fun going to and beyond the limit WITHOUT the risk of killing yourself; all accidents in Imprezas are BIG ones because the 'limit' is way off out there.

ps - Not sure about your figures of 140 bhp at the wheels (unless that's both front AND rear axles

pps - where is it exactly you'll be going past 130?

thats why i liked drifting in my volvo 360
coz i would be doing 30 mph . i would double that in my 325i

and subaru imprezas are soo short geared its annoying . it bang bang bang bang and your in 5th before you know it! then wat .

[320Touring]

The Mk2 golf gti is a hoot to drive!!

a couple of well placed 'full lock' moments can result in lovely rear wheel lifting

the 8v is my car of choice for the b-road blast-so much grunt so low down, makes for fun cornering!

the 16v is very much like the 318iS-a rev hungry monster!very fast when 'spun up' and ideal for long distance A road/motorway blasts

the lock on the mk2 golfs is better than a standard e30 rack, thats for sure-feels a bit more 'direct'

as for 325i vs mk2 golf, performance of the 16v and the 325i are very similar (imo) but its the handling that makes all the difference....
I've taken corners in 325i's at speeds that would have written off a golf gti

the 325i doesnt feel as much fun precisely because it just GETS ON WITH IT

the BMW chassis,in its standard form is more capable than many a modded golf i've driven.

tomstickland-i see what you're saying about the astra being a rapid FWD car, but you have to bear in mind that the mk2 golf's chassis is at least 10 years older in design than the astra's

therefore I dont think the mk2 golf is comparable with the astra in terms of a fwd car's handling

[E30BeemerLad]

the Impreza incident I mentioned earlier in the thread involved me provoking the female driver of a UK spec Impreza (204bhp?) into giving it some beans off a roundabout. I sat behind it on the roundabout and was on the gas at the same time as her, a tightish left hander coming off the roundabout saw me clinging to the rear expecting the scooby to squat down and fcuk off. However it didn't and I sat right with it upto 80mph when we had to brake for the next roundabout, she lost interest then. OK so maybe it was a woman who didn't plant it totally, but it was defo a turbo and not just a 2.0l sport! It made me feel like a dog with 2 dicks for a while afterwards.

I got done by a CRX Del Sol a few weeks later and was ready to give the car a spanking Basil Fawlty style (with a branch)!

Win some-lose some I guess

[nwmlarge]

surely alot of the characteristics were down to the familiarity with the car ?

[Simon13]

in the duals i've had with golfs were in my old 318is and it would do 8v's no probs, but 16's would just nip me, but on the twisties in the dry it was bye bye golf

325 would just grunt it's way into the lead

[cp325i]

I had a 16v mk2, it would do 70 in second! It had a couple mods done to it and was putting out 152bhp. I sold it to my m8 and he is rebuilding it (doing every mod possible), so he'll probably add a couple of extra bhp to it. I think my e30 is putting out about 200bhp and the other week it beat Integra Type R which is 180 to 200bhp, which is lighter and longer 1st and 2nd gears, when I hit 80 I pulled like fook

The mk2 16v is a very fast car wit the couple of mods and a good engine, these cars can be very surprising. I would think about getting one again but i think the e30 325i is out of the 16v league. The 318is was made to rival the 16v.

When my m8 brings her back on the road its going to be interesting!! I could b eating my own wordsԚ…Ԛ… IÔš'll keep u's posted on the outcome.....

[psychochild187]

i disagree the 325i and the 16v are the same league!
straight line there close and around town golf wins and on long motorway or track bmw wins


i raced a mate in a honda prelude 2.2 vtec
and his second gear is like a bike .he does 80 in 2nd ! but he pulled away but in late 3rd and 4th we werent different

i thought the 1.8 intergra was slow wen i was in that , fast on cuircut but not straight line fast

[orangecurry]

lets get a few things clear!

1) lets forget about the impreza in this thread - some of you will say 'jap-crap' and it's only 215BHP but it is in a totally different league;

No really.

Peak power figures say very little; it's the power to weight ratio plus how the power is delivered that counts. I've got one. Driven even remotely competantly it will destroy any E30 in a straight line / round corners / whatever.

If you need figures to help you digest this, look at EVOs 'knowledge' - the mk1 E30 M3 is 178 BHP/ton but the 0-60 is 6.7 and 0-100 is 17.8; the Impreza is 177 but 5.4 and 14.6 - over 3 seconds faster 0-100.
The M3 was designed as a track race car in the 1980s. The Impreza was designed/honed and won how many events in the 1990s? Yes the later M3 E30s had more power but allegedly they also lost some 'focus'.
Are we ok on this now?

(lets not talk modified; you can mod an Impreza)

2) the E30 325 was designed for rich businessmen in the 1980s, with lots of power delivered in a certain way so they didn't have to change gear very much. The suspension is very old school at the rear, and is just not up to going quickly (handling the E30 M3 is very different for many reasons - chassis, suspension design and parts, seam welded bodyshell etc etc) the Z3 had the same rear as the E30 and was slated by the motoring press.
It is not a hot hatch.
The GTi is, and the 16v mk2 golf is a different animal from the 8v. I've had a C-reg 8v (which are quicker than the later 8v as they changed the fuel-delivery/engine management for the worse), then I had a H-reg 16v.
Both cars have the same excellent chassis but different suspension as the 16v sat lower (and possibly has wider track).

The thread-title cars ARE in the same league, but the Golf is lighter and quicker than the E30 325; end of story.

We can talk all night about driving techniques and how Miss A went faster than Mr B, but sometimes you have to rely on professional experience to give an objective viewpoint (not mine!) and the E30 does not even get a mention in EVO (bar the M3).

BTW I only mention EVO as I'm sure lots of you have read it - and it does focus on the kind of cars we all love.

Lastly let me say why I love and praise the E30, and why I have one
a) it is fantastically over engineered and looks the dogs bits
b) more importantly for me I like driving it BECAUSE it handles the way it does; lots of predictable oversteer. I like the pendulum effect of the heavy engine in the front; I wouldn't change anything about it.

But if I wanted to get from A-B fastest? Golf mk2 16v.

[E30BeemerLad]

Orangecurry - I totally support everything you have said fella. Am a fellow Evo reader (subscriber) myself and have been reading it since the year dot, and beforehand when it was Performance Car. I regard it as my bible as far as car knowledge and information is concerned, there simply is not another motoring monthly that comes close. Wish I lived in North Wales, if only for the roads around there, particularly as the Evo crew seem quite partialled to gathering over there.

I drive an E30 because I like the look of them, they are pretty mechanically straight forward and not over burdened with electronic trickery (witchcraft if you ask me) and it is a car you have to respect when pressing on, ever ready to catch that back end. In this day and age of wind tunnel honed family wagons, the E30 stands out from the crowd and always draws looks.

Still could have had that Impreza though

[frosted]

mates got a mark2 8v gti.

2l bottomend
chip
cam
filter exhaust
tsr head

matches - standard gt4 celica
- seat leon running 240 bhp

that is bloody quick for what it is. looking forward to rolling road day with it

[tim_s]

Agreed. Was following my mate's truly knackered E plate 8v mk2 at the wkend, a later and less regarded digifant one (supposed to be slower), and it was about as fast as my 318is, although he was probably burning as much oil as fuel. In their day, they were such a fast car.
They're light, fast, a lot of fun and go round corners very well. My mk1 2l 8v with a flowed head, wild cam, bbtb etc puts out 110bhp atw on standard unleaded on tsrs rollers, is an e36 eater until you hit 70 odd mph at which point 323/5/8s etc are way faster. It is a very impressive car.
i find that you can't compare light fwd veedubs to old school bmws round the twisties, they are completely different animals. handling's a very personal thing, I enjoy throwing my golf around and it would be faster round corners on a track, but i love rwd.
oranges and apples...

[frosted]

well i have to add its not runnign standard gear ratios either

it completly trounced a 325i sport the other day. including top end up to 110 where mate backed off. (needs a liscnce)

he was winding me up for ages bout it

[psychochild187]

my friends just done all of those mods to a 16v golf he got
194. sommthing hp on the rollers

[tomstickland]

tomstickland-i see what you're saying about the astra being a rapid FWD car, but you have to bear in mind that the mk2 golf's chassis is at least 10 years older in design than the astra's

therefore I dont think the mk2 golf is comparable with the astra in terms of a fwd car's handling

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here? You think the Astra is better out of the box? Not many would agree, though some reviews from the late 80s said that the Golf washed out first on corners.

Either way, I wouldn't rate a standard GTE 16v for handling unless it had a decent spring and damper kit on it. Then they're quite good. Mine was seam welded and with a roll cage and solid engine mounts, all of which helped.

I have to agree with some of the comments that for outright pace on a wet B road then I'd probably prefer a Golf, 205 or GTE. I'm still learning about the E30 but I wouldn't want to push it hard on a wet road. Then again, when following a friend in his 306 TD he was all over the place whilst the 320 I was in just swept round the corners like they weren't an issue at all. So, on a dry sweeping road I reckon a 325 Sport could be faster than a Golf.

However, driving pleasure and "racing" on roads are different things. I wanted a wider scope from my car after the stripped out "rally car" I used to drive to work every day. I'd say an E30 was a pleasant way to learn about rear wheel drive.

My friend from work took me out in his Audi S2 the other day. The cornering in the wet was amazing. But I said to him "it's too good really, probably not that involving" and he agreed. The Impreza is a bit like that. It's power to weight isn't astounding when you consider the transmission losses. It's fast because of the way it puts the power down. On a wet, muddy B road with someone holding a gun to my head and telling me to go fast then I think I'd want an Impreza.

[320Touring]

yeah I was meaning that the astra and the mk2 golf are from different era's,so the chassis on the astra is better 'out the box' IMO

[frosted]

tbh a lot of the performance is down to the driver,

the astra gte - never go round corners quick in them cos they are sh*T

speaking from expericne!

mark2 golf - 325i sport.

as stanard the 325i sport.

normal mods. golf gti.

but thats just my opionion and experiences

[tomstickland]

Yes, but I went a lot of corners fast in mine. Not when it was standard because it was too wobbly. But with a decent spring and damper kit on it and some 15" wheels...
speaking from experience....

I think the Golf is a better car as a package than the Astra. However the Vaux engine is better IMO plus I don't really like the up high seating positon of the Golf. Small things really. The shells are a lot better, as was the general build of the cars.

My impartial friend who worked for BMW for years and various other garages has driven a lot of cars. He personally doesn't rate the MK2 Golf too highly.

As I say, I like Golfs, but I do see a lot of of the "GTi icon" thing obscuring the reality of them. Same with 205s.

[frosted]

the astra gte shell was good? are you joking?

serious rust issues!

note - i actually enjoyed the gte.

and also the gte lump is a lot less relaible. period

[tomstickland]

I meant it the other way round! ie: Golfs shells are a lot better and the build is better.
I'm sorry! You'd be right to question my judgement if I was claiming that the 80s Vauxhalls were better shells.

The Vauxhall XE lump (as used in GTE 16v) is very reliable. The bottom end was from the 2.0 8v which exists in many high mileage fleet cars/taxis etc. The head was designed by Cosworth for a +200BHP turbo engine, so the std normally aspirated 16v engine with 150BHP was unstressed. The engine does 250K with no problems apart from a smoke screen as the rings wear. The engine is good for 200BHP on throttle bodies with no internal modifications apart from rod bolts.


I've got no axes to grind really; Vauxhall made/make a lot of crap cars, but the engine in the Astra GTE/Cavalier GSi was the best thing they did. Very one dimensional cars in that respect. So I'm not claiming massive things for them, but the engines being unreliable I cannot agree with. They're still used extensively in kit cars, grass track racers, MK1/2 Escorts etc.

On a par with the GTi 8v engine in terms of being tough as boots. Nicer to work on though, I had the "pleasure" of fitting a new downpipe to the Jetta. My friend's Scirocco had a tubular manifold and there would have been no option of removing that with the engine in the car. Mind you, we managed to get the engine out in 20 minutes by the time we had done 3 of them (2 donor cars of various age, one final car).

[Jhonno]

and also the gte lump is a lot less relaible. period

you what? not at all!! they are v reliable

[orangecurry]

tomstickland - I agree totally with what you say about the Impreza being less involving.

It's a bit like an arcade game, with 'impossible grip' set to 'on'. But you learn to enjoy the different things about it, and push to find the limit; you CAN have fun but as I said it becomes dangerous.

I have to say though I test drove an Audi S3 (and drove to the garage in the Impreza) - now THAT is a really really boring car. Quick, if you don't fall asleep whilst driving it.

As all of you wise chaps/chapesses have said, we each enjoy driving in different ways in our different cars - long may it continue.

E30beemerlad - When you were saying about keeping up with that girl in the impreza, and you said 'and I was right with her when we slowed down for a roundabout...' I knew then that she can't drive - you DON'T need to slow down for roundabouts in an impreza

[E30BeemerLad]

Orangecurry - lol about not slowing for roundabouts in Imprezas.

Never driven one, but wouldn't pass up the chance. My old man worked for a garage that sold grey imports, so they always had a stack of WRX's in. He drove quite a few of them and none of them had less than the 280BHP. He reckoned they were frighteningly (sp) quick but got boring after a while as nothing really was a challenge. In his words, any dick head could drive an Impreza fast. No offence meant to anyone with one by the way! I can see how you say when you do have a mis-hap in an Impreza, it's gonna hurt, as you will be travelling at a fair old lick.

Personally, I don't think my car is that fast, the M20 engine is a lazy engine in my opinion, taking a fair while to climb the revs in 3rd & 4th and with not too much at the bottom end. It surprises me every now and again. It needs a good going over to be honest and everything setting up.

[psychochild187]

i dont iike imprezals
as soon as you close the door and hear it like it was made of thin tin.
i didnt like it
as soon as i got in it it felt easy to drive and like anyone could just jump in and trash it.
i prefer the evo but there both crap drivers cars