MegaSquirt vs MAF and unichip or other pggy back

[Gunni]

People should really consider that #1.
to view over features they need and don´t need and then spec out standalones and email the sales people with questions regarding the potential use and your desires from the units.

There maybe issues with looms, connectors, crank signals and so on.

[tim_s]

yeah agreed! good post hoshy, gets to the crux of the matter.

[oakey]

The fact is that on HERE there are many MS users and there is Ant who is always available for constant advice and help. It would have been silly of my to choose another standalone system as I have so much easily accessible help with MS from here and people close-by.

No-one ever seems to say MS is 'the best' and start any of these debates but someone else is always willing to come along and put MS down

What is the true reason people have such a problem with MS? (there are no valid points presented in this thread that are genuine problems)- as whenever it is mentioned someone always pops along and attacks it

[Gunni]

Features = $$
So with added features it will become more expensive.

I can´t see MS being DIY if you buy it ready made. That´s like ALL standalones.

One can run a mappable ignition management on M20 using a piggyback solution.

the problem with MS is that people who are new into the game think that it´s the only solution.
And they do not realize the insane amount of systems out there. MS does not have any fault or error logging system.
Most others do,

How does 550pounds sound for a VEMS unit that includes
new intake air temp sensor
new tps sensor
new wideband sensor
new wires to run injectors

[Simon13]

Gunni sounds a good price to me from what i've seen!

[tim_s]

It sounds more expensive than megasquirt 2 SMB plus an innovate wideband sensor, and for me I'm not sure where the gains are - MS offers all the features, flexibility and reliability etc that i want.
Out of interest, what features would you like to see on MS that it doesn't give currently, gunni?
I really don't know much about VEMS, isn't it megasquirt based anyway? Is that for one that will do sequential injection on a 6 pot? You've yet to convince me that MS is not the logical choice for most people on here, especially those with m20s where it's been so well tried and tested.

[Gunni]

It´s NOT based on Megasquirt , not in anyway.

http://megasquirtavr.sourceforge.net/ma ... About.html
This is basically it.

I believe a complete MS is $450?
Harness $65
Innovate $190?

Does MS still require EDIS?

[Ant]

MS has twin VR or hall decoders, wasted for 6 cyls and all on board on the 3.57 SMD boards, factory built and with only the FETS as through hole mounts, same as VEMS and all the others, stop hauling out the proto V1 and V2.2 boards for comparison everytime this topic is rehashed.

time to stop rubbishing MS guys, its evolved, indeed beyond the original by some margin.

VEMS is great, I have used it to great effect and it offers some great features, but in terms of the end user , posting on the zone, any would provide a viable choice.

ask the questions and make up your own minds people please !

I'll say no more on this.....

[tim_s]

It´s NOT based on Megasquirt , not in anyway.

http://megasquirtavr.sourceforge.net/ma ... About.html
This is basically it.
Does MS still require EDIS?

Oh, ok. Shows how much I know about it. At the top of that page it says its an open-source, do-it-yourself ecu. ring any bells? the whole thing jsut seems really similar to megasquirt, only more expensive, and with a few more bells and whistles. Which is great, and it really does sound like a good product, but I'm not really seeing the logic of you being such a fan of it and not megasquirt, when they seem a pretty similar product? just seems like brand snobbery? I mean we've ruled out reliability, and seemingly also features, on the grounds that MS checks both those boxes, so what does justify the extra cost? It seems to me that its sequential injection, onboard EGT and knock, which tbh I can live without. Mb support? Though I've found the support for megasquirt to exceed that of standard retail products - perfect power is the perfect example - the support was rubbish!

As for EDIS. No it doesn't. Hasn't done for as long as I've used MS - which is a few years now. Prices sound about right for a top of the range MS - so a few hundred quid cheaper all in.

http://megasquirtavr.sourceforge.net/
just read this, seems that the VEMS makers are at pains to let everyone know that it's not megasquirt. Surely if the product was so much better they wouldn't need to?

[Gunni]

Well those two systems are the only two open source ones.
So it´s pretty much impossible that they aren´t viewed as direct competitors.

Where MS-II is now VEMS was a few years ago.
VEMS is not open source anymore unless you really have something to contribute.

I will be looking forward to a new VEMS software and later updates.

[Onz]

guys I think hoshy said it best, (nice one for that dude )

Just 2 more quick questions;

1 - Does MS provide error logging or logging of any sort that can be mapped to a PC?
2 - What closed loop systems does VEMS have that MS cant handle?

[Gunni]

Both can log all their inputs and outputs and that later can be viewed with megalogviewer for instance.

I don´t know enough about MS to say, Ant probably can

[Onz]

How upgradeable is VEMS? can you just buy a new module or upgraded part and plug it in? Also if anything on the board blows how easy is it to repair?

[Gunni]

Why would anything blow?
if done correctly it will not blow.

VEMS is easily upgradable.
Best would just to buy one fully kitted so it´s ready for whatever at any one time,
and makes it easier to sell if need be later.

What would you consider to update?

[FlappySocks]

Yeah, unlikely anything will blow...dry joints maybe, but thats rare these days with SMD technology. So long as the input/outputs are current limited (or fused), and not subject to serious abuse, the ECU should outlast the car.

Presumably the software is constantly evolving on VEMS.... Are there lots of auxiliary hardware inputs & outputs for things like Shift Lights, fan control, etc, that can be controlled by the firmware?

[Ant]

Having used both systems, VEMS has the edge on the Technical side, indeed offers more coil and inj outputs as standard, and indeed can offer a fully seq setup( in conjuction was a cam phase signal ) for those that require it ( not many... )

Since the V3.0 PCB went live, MS has become a very stable platform, some have reported Coil drives dying out, but more often thats poor install than a true hardware issue, no unit is immune from damage from a ham fisted install.

The new SMD boards do mark a commercial move by the MS parent company, and are there for the taking in both MS1 and 2 platforms

A dead short in Garys inj drives killed the oddbank on his 2.7T @ Evolve a few months back, easily repaired and again, not stricly an issue from the choice of EMS, just a vibration induced short that gave a component 2x the load it was designed for.

VEMS and the onboard EGT and WB02 are a major plus, plus the Econoseal Harness plugs are superior to the standard MS fare, the pins are no bigger but its a more robust setup, and for some thats enough on its own to justify that choice.

No-one can say better- best, all the EMS out there will work fine given the correct spec and application.

I personally enjoy being able to open up the ECU case and add a new option , and put the logic side on the pad I want, using the software to do what I want, I found Emerald and MBE very restrictive TBH.

Making the informed choice is the only way to go, and its no easy decision guys.

I've used and mapped the following.

MBE,Emerald,Omex, Spectre, VEMS, MS , all had plus points , the more "high end" units were Harder to use due to the terrible GUI interface, and the plethora of windows you had to open to glean the info you wanted drove me mad.

Like anything, if you plan to DIY a setup the software is going to be more important to you than the brand on the box no ?

Re MS and the Megatune setup, it has quirks for sure, and I hate the lack of vertical res on the Live map screens in 3D mapping view, but there are worse out there, and you can "get used" to anything, no matter how oddball its seems @ the outset.

Horses for courses again ? but of course

@ Gunni, how did you get on with that HKS ?( defo jap brand ) unit you bought ? no-one I've met has experience with it overhere, spec looked great iirc

[Gunni]

what unit is that your talking about?

I´ve used a perfect power XMS3 from SA. And it´s got all kinds of error control and a very nice error report system.
As well as two complete maps, TPS vs MAP and internal wideband, also short circuit protection.
It´s only point missing was no interpolation but it comes down to how you set up the MAP sensor map really.
And the software was a piece of pie while I HATE the MegaTune software so much.

The new XMS4 has amazing amazing control now and features, but as always it´s gone up in price but they also split it up into more units so that people choose what they want.. I´m looking forward installing that.

They now also do piggybacks that connects directly into the fuel harness itself so no messing with the afm signal,
you can just re map things right of a map sensor. Pretty bad ass.

[Onz]

does MS have a direct output for a shift light or does that have to be added separately?

[Gunni]

I´m pretty sure it has already

[FlappySocks]

You need to add a transistor, a few diodes, resisters and LEDs, which you connect to two of the auxiliary outputs.
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/shiftlight.html

[Onz]

The biggest downfall I have seen from all of the standalone systems is the tuning. I visited Sal at Evolve yesterday to see his rolling road set up and check out the stand alone on his Alpina.

I was very impressed with the professionalism they showed and at what they can do (Thanks again for the time guys )

While I was there I did learn that a standalone system is only as good as its mapping and setup. Is it posible to set up a standalone system without a rolling road? I know megasquirt has got a self tuning sub program and base maps can be obtained but can the fine tuning be altered and tweaked with two people and a laptop?

After seeing Sal's I would love to have standalone on my car but I cant handle owning a car that will lose driveability as a result. How can this be overcome?

[Gunni]

Not use alpha-n as a mapping method on a street car.
it requires massive interpolation and nothing may change in anyway otherwise the tuning can go bad.
While MAP or MAF are ideal for street

[FlappySocks]

I know megasquirt has got a self tuning sub program and base maps can be obtained but can the fine tuning be altered and tweaked with two people and a laptop?

You can tune in realtime with MS with a laptop plugged in. It shows you on a graph what is happening, and you use the up and down arrow keys to adjust the fueling and spark. The effect is immediate, and when you happy, you click on "Burn" to make it permanent.

MS1 auto-tune requires a laptop plugged in while you drive around. MS2 doesn't. The other option is to log a journey, and then run some software which makes corrections to the map.

[Onz]

Not use alpha-n as a mapping method on a street car.
it requires massive interpolation and nothing may change in anyway otherwise the tuning can go bad.
While MAP or MAF are ideal for street

I decided no to use Alpha-N about 3 weeks ago after reading some stuff on race tuning, I believe that a road car need to compromise a little power at the top for driveability.....or you need your own Rolling road and the time to tune your car daily based on conditions and where you are going to dive ;)

now the questions is.... will a MAF and Standalone be easy to tune without a rolling road, and will it retain driveability while still having much better throttle response?

[Onz]

You can tune in realtime with MS with a laptop plugged in. It shows you on a graph what is happening, and you use the up and down arrow keys to adjust the fueling and spark. The effect is immediate, and when you happy, you click on "Burn" to make it permanent.

MS1 auto-tune requires a laptop plugged in while you drive around. MS2 doesn't. The other option is to log a journey, and then run some software which makes corrections to the map.

how accurate will this method of tuning be? Is it just as good as a rolling road tune? and is the journey logging methods auto tune software going to give as good results as a realtime tune up?

[Ant]

tuning on the road is OK, to tune for max HP @ WOT then a dyno is required, but even if you map on the dyno in steady state, you'll need to revise the mapping to make it streetable...

Alpha N is not a good plan for a street car, too much for everyday use.

[Gunni]

tuning on the road and you´ll never get peak mileage possible through ignition timing
or peak mid range throttle and so on, one can be lucky with guesses but thats about it.

If you use the dyno correctly car WILL be ready for the street.

[Ant]

Agreed Gunni, but @ what cost in dyno time ?

My method is get the maps 90% on the road and through datalogs, then book a dyno sesssion to dial in the areas you cannot map accurately on the road, it works well enough to shave a decent margin of dyno time off the final bills.

When I get an in house dyno, no doubt that will change but for now, having to pay third party dyno costs I'll continue as I am.

[Onz]

how do you do it Ant?

[Gunni]

Agreed Gunni, but @ what cost in dyno time ?

My method is get the maps 90% on the road and through datalogs, then book a dyno sesssion to dial in the areas you cannot map accurately on the road, it works well enough to shave a decent margin of dyno time off the final bills.

When I get an in house dyno, no doubt that will change but for now, having to pay third party dyno costs I'll continue as I am.

true, but you should be able to calculate most of the map anyway
based on the engine setup and thus be able to drive it nicely to the dyno.

the problem with road is two people need to do it so that it´s quicker then datalogging and then you can´t maintain same load that easily without out doing sweeps.

Personally I´d rather spend the money on the dyno and be done with it.
If one has a fair base map it´s not going to take ages to sort. Especially with well interpolating ecu´s and not to many load and rpm sites.

[Onz]

Gunni, Any books you can recommend for calculations required?

[Ant]

most aftermarket EMS will have a table generator, you input the claimed peak HP @ rpms, the peak tq @ rpms, bore/stroke and CR and the software will generate a fuel and timimg table for the data you've input.

the trick is moving the load sites about to where the interpolation is not working out, and concentrate your mapping in that area, then move on.

Agreed though, and engine is just a pump, so the air in/out and fuel required can be calculated with pure math in a perfect world.

Indeed my ( now sold) red SE was running only 6 load sites between 20 and 105 kpa, and interpolating the rest, only the "bad" areas where the power dropped off or fuelling was way out ( 2.2k rpms) were given a given value on the load sites to improve the shape of the graph.

so a 12x12 mappable ecu with interpolation is actually more useful than a 16x16 with no interpolation, as the ECU can ramp up/down between sites rather than jumping from stepoint to setpoint and rounding up/down

as for books, there are 1000s on the subject, I'd suggest Dave Walkers bible for those interested in the process behind an EFI setup, its written in almost laymans prose, rather than outright technical gibberish.

[Onz]

Cool, Thanks mate very helpfull!

What about settings change for different weather conditions and saftey fuelling when over revved?

[hoshy]

Agreed Gunni, but @ what cost in dyno time ?

My method is get the maps 90% on the road and through datalogs, then book a dyno sesssion to dial in the areas you cannot map accurately on the road, it works well enough to shave a decent margin of dyno time off the final bills.

When I get an in house dyno, no doubt that will change but for now, having to pay third party dyno costs I'll continue as I am.

Bear in mind my father's is still for sale

[Onz]

hoshy, what make is the dyno?

Ant, is this this book you mean? :