E30 vs E36 track day car?????

[tlee]

Hi All

A noob here.

After much thought and previously considering an E36 M3 for the track, I've decided to go less exotic thereby increasing the trackday costs fund!

At the moment I'm torn between an E30 325i or E36 328i as the car to go for. I've never driven either of these cars but am certain that this is the route I want to go down having already been down the 4WD route in 3 different Imprezas and the FWD route in an Accord Type R.

Can anyone give me their opinions of the two cars I've chosen. The car will end up, to coin a new term, half-stripped. So the dash will stay along with heating but there won't be various trim, rear seats nor a rollcage. It will be used on UK tracks plus at least one trip to the Ring each year.

A (possibly stupid) concern of mine is the difference in performance. I don't want anything too slow because it turns into boredom for me - the problem I've encountered after owning a 300 bhp classic Impreza STI. I assume the E30 is a lighter car but it also has less power. How will it match up to the E36? And of course, chassis performance - out of the box and lightly modified (ARBs, fixed lowered spring and shock set) - how will the cars compare?

Your wise words are most welcome ;)

[k10]

The E36 2.8 will be faster, they always come past us on track, but the E30 has more cudos.

[e21Jason]

In the damp the e36 will be faster z-axle v semi trailing arms

Jason

[clubfx2]

E36. With bigger throttle body from the 325i and a chip/exhaust you'll get 240bhp. Good suspension, there's no contest.

But I do luv e30's more. More character.

[oldbimmer]

.
I would say go for the E30 - great fun and no doubt cheaper to buy and prepare..

Yes, the E36 will be faster and will probably have higher limits but I can't help thinking it would be less of a laugh.

I drive an E36 M3 evo on the road and an E30 on the track.

Even with standard power, the E30 is anything but boring!
Get yourself an E30 and with the right bits underneath, you'll have a ball!

[GuyM]

.
I would say go for the E30 - great fun and no doubt cheaper to buy and prepare..!

have to agree....i am considering e36 at some stage but heavier car, more wear on brakes suspension etc which are more expensive.....it depends on your budget

.
I drive an E36 M3 evo on the road and an E30 on the track.
!

...i do as well
and right now with my budget it is an ideal compromise and a good way into track cars

[oldroydsr4]

e36 will be quicker with the 325i tb and inlet manifold the chassis is better and there are huge selection of wheels and m3 parts, however you will look far cooler in an e30.

good 325i are hard to find nowadays to.

Your decission but if your looking for speed i would go with the e36.

sorry

[madaboutthe30]

How much is your budget?

If its reasonable, why not purchase the e30 and dropping the engine of the e36 into. That would be the best of both worlds

[maxfield]

Andyboy once told me an E30 makes a much better track car then the E36!

Why not the best of both worlds? E36 in engine in an E30.

[northloop]

What's your budget for a completed car?

How many track days do you intend to do during the year?

What's your budget for yearly running cost.


Answer all those questions and if you can build and run the E36 within your budget it will be the car for you. If you cant and need to compromise then it's the E30 or something else.

If you arent 100% worried about RWD then something like a Mk2 golf with 180bhp can be had for reasonable money as could an Mi16'd 205 or sorted 306GTi6. All three are serious track cars and will probably be quicker than either of your other options.

[tlee]

Thanks for all the replies. I was thinking of buying clubfx2's 325 since it's ready to go which saves me a lot of money since I don't do mechanical work myself. But the thrill of speed is a major factor for me so I might find the trade off of paying more for the 328 and doing a couple trackdays less in the first year a better proposition.

A guy on the e36coupe forum has PM'd me details of his 328 sport for sale at 2600. Problem (or is it?) is that it has over 130K miles. No matter how well a car has been looked after in the past, I can't see it having much life left if it then goes on track all the time with that kind of mileage.

As for RWD vs FWD, I loved the incredible chassis of my Accord however, FWD just doesn't do it for me. It's time for the challenge of RWD

[Jhonno]

thing is the feeling of speed (which you appear to like) is far greater in the e30! ive had a 325i and a 328i and whilst the e36 was more refined and quicker, it doesnt necessarily feel it.. i havent driven an e36 with suspension mods, but my 316i with H&R roll bars and decent shocks and dampers was awesome! felt nimble and responsive! something i think the weight of the e36 would prevent

[e30den]

the mileage is a debateable factor the car has either had a hard life or an easy one.

[northloop]

As per my previous comment.

What's your budget for the prepared car

What's your yearly running cost budget?

The reason I ask - A well prepared E30 325 could cost around £5 or £6k. I should know, i'm doing one at the moment.

Eg -

Sound Car purchase £1000
Suspension - £750
Cage £300 - £750
Seats including subframes - £400 - £700
Harnesses - £200
Discs and pads - £400
Bushes - £150
Steering wheel - £100
Tyres - £200

Add to that the labour to fit the parts above, plus a good service, plus the extra bits every individual car will need and you £5K or more at least. Might be worth looking on Pistonheads to see if there is one already prepared for sale

[northloop]

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/326982.htm

[tlee]

Northloop
My budget isn't that big although I must admit I haven't sat down and thought about it in depth like I should have. For running the car for the year I am thinking 4 trackdays plus the Ring trip.

trackdays + Ring trip = £1300
servicing and maintenance inc tyres = £800 (bit of a guess that one)
leaves cash available for car in first year = £2000

So, it's quite obvious to me now I need something already built!!!! As per my earlier post, I could forego the Ring trip and a trackday in the first year to up the car budget for a nice E36 328 that I could hopefully find that is at least on its way to being prepared e.g. at least bushed and lowered.

[tlee]

Thinking about this some more, what sort of cost is it to source and fit say the 328 engine in the E30? It's apparent to me that buying clubfx2's car and running it until the engine dies, then putting in the 328 engine may in the long run cost less than getting the E36 328 to start with and having to spend on its prep (since it seems to me already prepped 328's are very rare). I'll also end up with the faster car!

[northloop]

It's always worth getting your budget set in your mind first then you will get an idea of what you can and cant do.

If by saying 'at least bushed and lowered' you mean buy a decent set of suspension then budget about £850 for coilovers including fitting. The bushes will cost around £150-£200 for a set plus fitting.

If it was me doing it I would either look for a car already made. Some of the spec wont be to your liking but at least you will be half way there.... Or I would buy a solid road car, run it for a while, give it a good service and do a track day with it unmodified. That will tell you the areas you need to address first. Common sense says they should be safety related areas.

[clubfx2]

Hey Tim

I know see the reference point now.

Without acting like a salesman the e30 always puts a smile on the dial. Even if you doing 100mph on a straight, the handling and thrill factor can't be bought in the e36.

I hate ever having to sell and e30 and then end up buying another one.

Just as we've pm'd, feel free to come for a viewing, test and a chat.

I think the only changes you'll need to do for track are the brakes and poly bush, that should get you ready for the track.

Anyways chat tomorrow.

[blitz877]

i had a good drive of a e30 318is earlier and it felt so much better than any e36 iv driven so id go for an e30 anyday mate

[UweM3]

don't want to sound negative, but if you are running on such a tight budget it's time to come back down to earth.
You will have to delete something on your list. You can't have the fastest car with the biggest engine and doing all the trackdays within you budget.
But who talked you into that? you can either spend th emoney to have an E36 and do less trackdays or skipping some of the mods (i.e. just lowering springs instead of a coil over suspension) or you buy an E30, prepare that well and have more fun (and it will be faster that a half done E36).
Sorry to sound so rude, but sometimes I feel it's good to step back a little and start thinking. In the end you want to have fun. And a good prepped E30 will give you loads of that. It will take a lot more money to get an E36 prepped properly. And you still have the weight penalty. Doesn't mean you go faster only because of more bhp's

we have an E36 in the household as well and I do like driving it, but if you can't find one already prepped with most of the work done, I would rather go for a E30 and spend the money on tyres and lap tickets

[iguana]

Hmm not convinced e36 325/328 faster on track than e30 325i, ive passed many, all depends on the driver really, ive pasted a fair few e36/e46 m3s too, & my e30 is a very very low budget car, but a stripped e30 driven by someone doing trackdays a few yrs vs someone who maybe a novice in trimmed road car not really a fair comparison.

A decently speced e30 325i is in the right hands, pretty darn nippy on track. But spec an e36 m3 in the same manner & its in a difernt league.

For e36 track car inspiration read about this guys build of his e36 325i, certainly caught my eye. Should be a really nice bit of kit when done.

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/to ... 0&t=463194

All depends what you are after, could get a really nice e36m3 for a lot lot less than northloop has spent on his tango wagon, near half in fact, & for less than folks ask for decent e30 325i sports, but we are not talking specifically track prepped jut a decnt road car example. if you pick the right car you could do minimal bits & bobs & get in a few track days & ring trips & be fine. regular road e36m3 is half a tonne heavier then stripped e30 325i tho!

But stripped vs stripped I dont think there is more than 250kg in it. & can get e36 m3 down to 1100kg if you go mental, e36 dont feel as lithe as e30 tho & always feesl bigger, well coz it is!

But if it goes wrong its not gunna be cheap, blow an e30 325i engine up, well £150 of ebay or the zone classifieds should see you back on track, e36m3 hmmm £3k area for the same. Its why im abit scared tracking my e36 m3 on slicks, wheras the e30 im not too fussed.

Same applys to tyres etc, hell of alot cheaper in 15 inch then 17 inch, (altho if you run slicks are easier to get hold of in 17) & the fact you have to buy whole wishbone on e36m3 is a right pain vs bolt ball joints on e30 or e36 non M

e36 cages (bolt in) are a pain to get too, none at omp sparco, roll centre & safety devices defunct, but e30 tons around & even new are cheap circa £350. but persnally id be happier tracking an e36 without a cage than an e30.

Lots off waffle there im afriad, but im ment to be working at the same time so just some thoughts for you

[Lloydie38]

Here's my bit...

E36 328is
I've got a E36 328is daily driver with the throttle body done and it's quick, handles well, turns in well, no traction control (ace fun in the wet!) on my 64,000 mile 1996 example. I've taken it on the track but was cautious not to thrash it and damage it but it went really well.

E30 325i Track car - 1988
Bought this over an E30 M3 because easier to get parts and cheeper in every way. It's stripped and caged, poly bushed, Bilstine shocks and springs, uprated yellow stuff pads, hoses and 5.1 fluid, induction and exhaust system with no boxs, Toyo R888 and Good year F1 on 15". Owes me £3500 all in

See it here: http://www.whitetrack325i.webeden.co.uk/

The E30 is far more fun and involved for the driver and is quicker on track than I would be in the 328 as I push the e30 far more and not afriad of bashing it. If the E36 328 was stripped it would be faster yes but NOT more fun - as said above it feels bigger because er er it is!

When I'm in the E30 325 people love the car and come over -they don't with the E36
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[tlee]

Thanks for all the information. Slightly off topic - IGUANA! I noticed your weblink/company. I realise that I used your services nearly two years ago! You came to get my 98 STI from Ware to take to Colchester due to a blown bottom end. Hope you're well.

I'm keeping my options open and going to take my time about this next car (for the first time in my life!). I just hope some more prepped cars start appearing in the classifieds.

[tlee]

Had a chance to read Lloydie's website now. Very clean looking car you got there for, I assume, a steal. The costs you have quoted. I guess they are excluding labour? (a lot of labour!)

[Lloydie38]

The car was £1000 off ebay and was really, really tidy, original reciepts for everything, every MOT cert, some would say far too good to be stripped for a track car.....

As for the labour, mates rates and a great independant BMW garage here on the Isle of Man - DGP garage in Port Erin, owned by a very knowledgeable owner who's a perfectioist with his Beemas

[iguana]

Thanks for all the information. Slightly off topic - IGUANA! I noticed your weblink/company. I realise that I used your services nearly two years ago! You came to get my 98 STI from Ware to take to Colchester due to a blown bottom end. Hope you're well.

Blimey small world, hello indeed, yes I remember the car.

So finally looking at a decent car now then 'eh


Cheers.

[tlee]

After plenty of deliberation and a stroke of luck, I've now made up my mind! With the help of a friend we are going to co-own this track car so that's helped the budget no end! I've tracked down a nice 328 Sport and it's provisionally sold to me pending any further offers the seller may receive whilst his advert is still live on Autotrader. I'm looking to get the car on track asap in standard form so I can fully appreciate the progression as it slowly turns into a more track orientated car.

After the first track day it will start on a diet and some coilovers will be added.

Hope to bump into some of you in the course of an eventful year!

[Lloydie38]

Thanks for all the information. Slightly off topic - IGUANA! I noticed your weblink/company. I realise that I used your services nearly two years ago! You came to get my 98 STI from Ware to take to Colchester due to a blown bottom end. Hope you're well.

I'm keeping my options open and going to take my time about this next car (for the first time in my life!). I just hope some more prepped cars start appearing in the classifieds.

Couldn't work out what IGUANA meant so I googled it - see weird result..... http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.ht ... _page_id=2

[delae30]

I tell you with some simple suspension mods(shocks and springs)+ tire upgrades the e30 with routine maintenance
is a lot of fun. It is like all older equipment, it is more mechanical. Combine this with the less weight and you have a very responsive entertaining ride. In short course with a lot of direction changes, its all about momentum and the e30 is great with the small chassis.

E36 are great cars but I have the cost is higher. Both are great cars, get rides in both if you can and then make your decision.

[tlee]

delae thanks for the opinion although I believe an E30 is a false economy for me since I will not be doing any mechanical work on the car myself. Starting with a car that is up to ten years older than the 328 kind of puts me off - the ten year older engine, the ten year older chassis, ten years more for rust to play a part. Of the E30's I've seen advertised, the good solid ones cost more just for the base car than the good 328 Sport I have found.

[delae30]

Thats strange. In america it is different. You can get a nice e30 for cheaper than an e36. But good luck with the BMW track car. I think campaigning a BMW is always going to be more expensive than other Makes.

[clubfx2]

Tommy

Best thing is to try both cars on a track, that will answer your question.

[tlee]

You're right, I think I should attend the Bedford day coming up in February and try to blag some pax laps (or even a drive!) of the two different cars. The only problem is my friend (the co-owner) is kind of set on the 328i and he won't be in the country at the end of Feb so won't be able to join in the car assessment/fun in Feb.

[lancelot]

I once had a similar conversation with Geoff Steel about the merits of an E30 v and E36. While we were discussing M3's, he basically said that it was a lot easier to make a good car from an E30 than an E36. The '36 required more work and money to get to the same level, but overall had more potential if you really went to extremes.