318iS Chip Testing - dyno graph

[tim_s]

Thanks Sal.
Am quite surprised at the results considering both chips are actually running leaner than the factory chip lol. how much was the timing advanced? 10rwhp through timing alone is surprising! Spose there's potentially still a few more ponies in that engine if it were richened up a tad. impressive! Although not sure that running all that extra advance and a leaner AFR is ideal, esp if not using super unleaded etc.

[M5pilot]

Tim,

there are no more ponies to be gained "safely".

Making the mixture richer will not give any increase in power. The Alpina on standalone has had many hours of dyno mapping now and there was no power difference between running 12.5 AFR all the way to 13.5 AFR.

Cannot disclose how much timing we have put in but I can say it's less than the other chips we've had a look into.

In other words it's a hell of alot safer aswell!

Also, a note to those who will copy our chip, don't bother, it won't work.

Sal

[Gunni]

Tim,

there are no more ponies to be gained "safely".

Making the mixture richer will not give any increase in power. The Alpina on standalone has had many hours of dyno mapping now and there was no power difference between running 12.5 AFR all the way to 13.5 AFR.

Cannot disclose how much timing we have put in but I can say it's less than the other chips we've had a look into.

In other words it's a hell of alot safer aswell!

Also, a note to those who will copy our chip, don't bother, it won't work.

Sal

There can´t be any gained horses unless the engine is knock limited and one would run higher octane fuel, correct tuning will allow an engine to be run at the MBT all the time, but that requires imense tuning of the coolant and air temp curves. it will not always maintain max power as that simply isn´t possible, the engine will only make more power as the intake charge get´s colder, so the limit while intake temp is 30deg would be less, but with the proper tuning that limit can be tuned to for those situations.

Also why would changing the TB to a BBTB not need a chip to compensate the extra air now entering the engine?

Andrew

It´s in the way AFM/MAF chips are tuned, unless the afm or maf is at it´s measuring limit then any more air is already tuned for in the chip tables.
and it´s really simple, 5% more air = 5% more fuel will maintain the same AFR.

Power does not come from more and more fuel but at the correct ignition timing.

[tim_s]

OK, I'd have left the car at a minimum as rich as factory, if not richer, if increasing timing and seeing a figure of 13.5:1, for safety (lower temps, less chance of det) if nothing else.
I understand that for you richening made no extra power, but that doesn't tally with what I've seen. All NA cars I've owned have made peak power at an AFR richer than 13.5:1, although mb your sensor reads a little on the lean side.
My IS when standard unsurprisingly made its highest power figure, an extra 6-7hp or so, at around 13:1 AFR, going a fair bit richer than the 13.5:1 of the standard chip. Going further towards stoich than factory will prob only increase EGT and lose power.

Not really sure what your alpina has to do with the discussion, but what the hell if we're talking about cars with completely different engines in them, my car has also had many hours on the dyno, makes peak power at about 13:1 on the dastek effort, which relates to 12.5:1 ish on my LC1 which doesn't appear to be working spot on. When i r/r'd it a month or so ago, I had it set to 13:1 on my LC1, bringing the AFRs down from to indicated 12.5:1 on the LC1 (13:1 on the rollers) gave me a few horsies. The LC1 is on the downpipe which could account for some of this. I have lots of graphs to show this.

Out of interest, are you just using plug in chips, or actually tuning them Sal?

[Gunni]

When doing all those runs, where you maintaining the exact same intake temp?
even between days?

[tim_s]

You asking me gunni? lol
did loads of runs on motronic and megasquirt one morning. spent about 3 hrs on the rollers, monitored the air inlet temps etc on megasquirt and took breaks etc.
did a few runs a couple of weeks ago too, made sure air inlet temps were constant again etc - that's when the car was tuned to my wideband, and richening it up gave a few more horses.

[e30_Turbo]

Tim,

Was the rollers AFR's read from the tailpipe or the downpipe?

My LC-1 is in the downpipe too and I noticed that the readings at the MOT test station were out a by about 1 afr, although IIRC I was comparing the lamba values as that's what their equipment put out.

I put this down to the fact the sensor was stuffed up the backbox, a few metres from the LC-1. The only other thing to note is the way you recieve the info, the last few updates of MS and the LC-1 have enabled many more ways to view the signals, I use LC-1 default on everything and it's been fine so far.

And from the limited tuning I've done, my engine felt most powerfull @ WOT running about 12.9-1, although I had to run a lot richer to prevent knocking due to IAT's rising like a rocket once on boost, something I hope to have solved this time round. Fingers crossed!

[tim_s]

Tim,

Was the rollers AFR's read from the tailpipe or the downpipe?

My LC-1 is in the downpipe too and I noticed that the readings at the MOT test station were out a by about 1 afr, although IIRC I was comparing the lamba values as that's what their equipment put out.

I put this down to the fact the sensor was stuffed up the backbox, a few metres from the LC-1. The only other thing to note is the way you recieve the info, the last few updates of MS and the LC-1 have enabled many more ways to view the signals, I use LC-1 default on everything and it's been fine so far.

And from the limited tuning I've done, my engine felt most powerfull @ WOT running about 12.9-1, although I had to run a lot richer to prevent knocking due to IAT's rising like a rocket once on boost, something I hope to have solved this time round. Fingers crossed!

haha, yeah all sounds a bit familiar. I use MS2 extra beta so yeah it has the better calibration stuff, I've also recently cleaned and free-air calibrated the LC1 by removing it from the exhaust etc.
And yeah I think the position has something to do with it. Have the LC1 at downpipe, dastek jobby poked well up the exhaust with Paul's little bracket thing. tbh i trust the dastek as Paul tests so many cars (including 3 of my mates' cars when i was on incl my mate's S2 that was recently remapped and the AFRs on Paul's rollers tallied perfectly with what he expected) that we just 'know' it's right plus there really isn't much arguing with the car making more power! It's an NA car and so should make peak power at about 13:1 imo.

[M5pilot]

We are not doing actual live tuning on these.

Mate, our difference in our opinion on AFR's could well be down to our individual sensors reading a little differently. I'm only going by what we measure.

Gunni - you know how anal we are about intake temps vs ambient temps. Even if it means waiting with the fan on for 5 mins to get the intake temps down we will.

Every individual run has it's intake temp recorded and also ambient temperature recorded. All were approximately 7 degrees above ambient.

Sal

[Gunni]

That´s why I was asking Tim and not you

[M5pilot]

aah...sorry!

[ShepsEvo3]

Sal, maybe now some guys will realise why tuning on a dyno is better than tuning on the road. Most guys advance ignition on the road untill they hear det then back it off slightly, but as we know, power can drop off before det is heard.

Its great to see the results as you've posted them too.. makes for interesting reading and its something I've wanted to do for ages!

[ShepsEvo3]

Sal, what I am interested in is what was the maximum increase in power and at what REVS over standard was the chip that only gave another 4BHP at max power?

From the above graphs you can see that the "peak" power gain was only 3.3 bhp. At around 4750 rpm the "other" chip gives around 4bhp at the most.

Sal

Maybe the "18BHP increase" is at idle?

[tim_s]

Sal, maybe now some guys will realise why tuning on a dyno is better than tuning on the road. Most guys advance ignition on the road untill they hear det then back it off slightly, but as we know, power can drop off before det is heard.

Its great to see the results as you've posted them too.. makes for interesting reading and its something I've wanted to do for ages!

Lol yeah that's true, but still, remember we weren't able to get any more power than from my road-tuned sparks map when we were on the rollers at all! I'm also the first to admit that I'm not exactly the most experienced at tuning sparks maps. mb mine needs some more testing on the rollers, but i dunno.
I must admit I've never been too convinced about plug-in chips for the 318is, but 12hp sounds good. I wonder what bin sal used; I have a few bins but have never been "12hp" impressed with anything. the jayson chip actually worked ok for me. If I did it all again, I think I'd be bloody tempted to get you to do a unichip setup

[M5pilot]

LOL!!

Don't be starting that arguement about rollers vs road mate! The die hard road mappers will come looking for you!

You, I and loads of other tuners know the score on ignition timing and road mapping.

Sal

[M5pilot]

Unichip would be ideal!

The problem is that not many people are going to pay that sort of money.

The general E30 market demands cheap eproms, this in my opinion is as good as it's going to get and be very safe at the same time.

We do not use any bins from the UK, we have a specific guy who makes files like these for us and has proven himself to be extremely good on BMW's, infact better than the rest. He does BMW's only, has a dyno himself and does has been tuning BMW's from before the E30 days.

While I'd love to say I make these files the fact is that I don't. We do ask for certain changes to be made during testing which are sometimes very beneficial but a majority of our own tuning is standalone tuning and soon Unichip.

Sal

[ShepsEvo3]

Sal, maybe now some guys will realise why tuning on a dyno is better than tuning on the road. Most guys advance ignition on the road untill they hear det then back it off slightly, but as we know, power can drop off before det is heard.

Its great to see the results as you've posted them too.. makes for interesting reading and its something I've wanted to do for ages!

Lol yeah that's true, but still, remember we weren't able to get any more power than from my road-tuned sparks map when we were on the rollers at all! I'm also the first to admit that I'm not exactly the most experienced at tuning sparks maps. mb mine needs some more testing on the rollers, but i dunno.
I must admit I've never been too convinced about plug-in chips for the 318is, but 12hp sounds good. I wonder what bin sal used; I have a few bins but have never been "12hp" impressed with anything. the jayson chip actually worked ok for me. If I did it all again, I think I'd be bloody tempted to get you to do a unichip setup

Tim, you are right it seems you did a good job on the open road, but it would be good to spend some quality time on your ignition timing while on the dyno, but for the gains if any expected, is it worth the fuel and time?

Sal, also works for fuel - AFR's too, you found that 13.5:1 works for the 318is on the dyno where others maybe tuning for 12.8:1 and loosing out? Or the other way round LOL

[ShepsEvo3]

Unichip would be ideal!

The problem is that not many people are going to pay that sort of money.

The general E30 market demands cheap eproms, this in my opinion is as good as it's going to get and be very safe at the same time.

We do not use any bins from the UK, we have a specific guy who makes files like these for us and has proven himself to be extremely good on BMW's, infact better than the rest. He does BMW's only, has a dyno himself and does has been tuning BMW's from before the E30 days.

While I'd love to say I make these files the fact is that I don't. We do ask for certain changes to be made during testing which are sometimes very beneficial but a majority of our own tuning is standalone tuning and soon Unichip.

Sal

Thats true Sal, the Unichip is much more expensive than an EPROM change, but it works and is tunable to any mod you have done on the car. The later Unichip (Q) is f'in awesome, alowing for AFM to MAP or TPS or MAF conversions using the cars original management... and thats MUCH cheaper than going standalone. Although MS is also a good way to go, I have no real experiance on that, but I can vouch for the Unichip Now who wants me to fit one to thier 318is? Not for free though

[Demlotcrew]

It´s in the way AFM/MAF chips are tuned, unless the afm or maf is at it´s measuring limit then any more air is already tuned for in the chip tables.
and it´s really simple, 5% more air = 5% more fuel will maintain the same AFR.

The ECU on our cars does'nt take a reading from the AFM at WOT. They have 'enrichment maps' for WOT but obviously still take a air temp reading from the AFM just not the 'air/mass' thats being sucked in.

So from what Sal has said a BBTB isnt letting any more air in than a stock one so its money better spent else where, right?

[ShepsEvo3]

Has anyone actually tested to see if the AFM or the throttle body is restrictive on these cars?

[Demlotcrew]

On a M42?

Im hooking up a vacuum gauge to my engine when i get a chance, just for fun to see what different filters are doing what etc. (s14)

[ShepsEvo3]

On a M42?

Yes We know that the S14 AFM is restrictive as I have tested on another forum

[Demlotcrew]

Ive not

[M5pilot]

BBTB generally gives better throttle response.

AFR's do not change and hence we don't need to make any adjustments.

Sal

[M5pilot]

anyway.......looking forward to getting a nice 325i in now and hopefully be able to do something on the M30 engine aswell.

I already know the results from a few other chips on 325i's (again, rubbish) simply down to adventurous ignition timing!

Sal

[e30_Turbo]

I was told by Dave Walker ( I.e I was speaking to him on the phone ) that the BEST way is to map a car on the rollers and fine tune on the road.

BUT another engine tuner I know well tells me the only way to do it is in a engine cell with an engine dyno, they never map the engine in the car...ever......

I personally can't wait to get on a RR myself for a play, soon, real soon I hope.

[Gunni]

The tricky bit is fuel enrichment on snap throttle,.
wich can be hard on a dyno if you´r not sure what you are doing.
By holding a car to a specific rpm and then test the snap throttle you can tune that.

Everything can be done on a dyno, it´s the diffrent conditions like colder air that need to be done
on the road.

[tim_s]

Has anyone actually tested to see if the AFM or the throttle body is restrictive on these cars?

yes, we have! it wasn't! we hooked up a vac gauge on your old rollers with mine on the 1.8 ages ago? we also removed the afm and ran again, same peak power output. also a chap i know in the states did the same and found the same. Same goes for throttle really, no perceivable difference with the BBTB, although lots of gains with throttle bodies - but that's not just due to throttle diameter.

As for the sparks map, there's no point in much extra time on the dyno imo - when we tested the other wk at yours, we couldn't get any extra power anywhere. If you reckon there's any more power in there I'm happy to give it a go, but I don't really.

As far as road tuning versus tuning on the rollers is concerned, I reckon what dave walker set but the opposite way around can work well too. I've done loads of road tuning on mine, then just done final tweaks on the rollers - the stuff you can't check on the road. basically the car was pretty close to perfect through road tuning megasquirt, which is the beauty of it. Finishing up on Paul's rollers, managed to just tweak the AFRs to give a little more hp where tuning to my wideband's AFR wasn't quite ideal, but otherwise it was unchanged.

A bit more on topic - Sal, I agree with you, there's a market for chips cos they are cheap, and 12hp is a very good gain for the money! Oh, and BBTBs are a bit rubbish imo!

[ShepsEvo3]

Has anyone actually tested to see if the AFM or the throttle body is restrictive on these cars?

yes, we have! it wasn't! we hooked up a vac gauge on your old rollers with mine on the 1.8 ages ago? we also removed the afm and ran again, same peak power output. also a chap i know in the states did the same and found the same. Same goes for throttle really, no perceivable difference with the BBTB, although lots of gains with throttle bodies - but that's not just due to throttle diameter.

Opps, so we did!

[tim_s]

lol, was your idea too! (and not a bad one at that!)

[ShepsEvo3]

I do remember that now LOL, alot has happened since then

Saying that, I am doing an M30 engined E30 at the moment, mapped with AFM fitted, done the "vac" test to see if its restrictive and isnt, but I have just done the AFM to TPS conversion and although I havn't fully mapped it yet, there were considerable gains low down. I can't say anything more than that right now, but a similar thing could be experianced in anything else with a flappy AFM.

Will chat to you when you are next up about the timing

[agreen]

once my car had been chiped by evolve automotive

drivalbilty was sooo notiable improvment, driving my car home wasalot more fun

sal half throttle response has been improed alot and i mean alot

and the engine seems alot more pokey (not the correct terminoligy i am sure ) low down the rev range now where it lacked power before

well worth the money not just for the bhp and trque gains but the driving experiance is hightened and that alone is worth the small price of the chip

maybe its just 318is 's but mine is som such more fun now its been chipped until the noveltty wears o and i want more power lmao

cheers sal good reliable and most of all tested products that acctually work just shows with extensive testing and a good knolage of e30s (sals ad 15 i think lol ) good gains are achevable

Bang for buck ou cant get anywhere neer these sort of gains

Thanks again to all at evolove

[M5pilot]

Thanks for sharing your experience with everyone Arron.

Again, thanks for bringing us a nice healthy car.

Sal

[jens]

I have in my 318iS chip from Pro formance, have anybody experience or dyno from that chip.

[ShepsEvo3]

Good work Sal, the proof is in the puddin there. Great results and great value from just a relative DIY chip change.