cam upgrade & big bore throttle body

[fowler]

absolutely love this thread

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: Re:



Blimey!!

I've just read all this. i said that would happen Ant init.

As the man running the rollers i feel i should say that i believe there was no error. i've probably done more miles on them this year than i've done on the road. i don't believe they are that far out as they have remained pretty constant in all the time i've known them.

My own cars have always remained fairly much the same throughout and a lot of customers who have run elsewhere haven't seen any outrageous power gains purely from our rollers. you can see when watching the graph when any errors occur.

High powered wrong wheel drives and outrageous TVRs have taught me that.

I'm not into 'doctoring' figures as i'm not interested in the money i only interested in the cars.

In the last 10 years i've spent a lot of time in, around or under E30 325's and in my opinion a well maintained m20 with correct fuelling, no air leaks, compression and a good spark should make 170bhp no question.

My old H26 engine i built with love in my garage made 203 on a set of rollers back in the day. a similar one i rebuilt a few months back made 204 here (already waiting for the no it didn't ).

Ants' car is a credit to him. his experience shows as it's the first time i've seen his car running and i was impressed. we did a lot of 190ish runs and with a while of tweaking 202 was the best run. no one see's the hours and hours of work that goes into it including the hour or or so we were in there at night, freezing, tweaking and laughing at Fowler dancing to electro in front of the fan.

I really don't want to get involved in this debate as i don't have the time but IF there is a mistake i would like to know about it as somewhat feel responsable as i know some people once they've read it on a forum believe it to be gospel and could do without the bad press.

Get it down here in november Ant n we'll do a retest. Chris's cab pulled 6 perfect graphs in a row so i don't believe anything was wrong but obviously there is doubt.

There's now an organised drag racing on the sunday so we can test the power figures that way if you like .

My m50 BTW is running no cats, lambdas unplugged!!! (thanks andy for that info, i was wondering why it was averaging about 203 on the many runs with just a k&n and my development exhaust! 14.7 all the way all the way baby yeah)

It's now got a full Fritz exhaust is well maintained, reliable, thrashed to fook and loves it.

215 isn't that far out and with the omex 710 in my toolbox it should open it out nicely i reckon.
when i get time

from the man operating the dyno classic
Dave next time i will bust out the electric boogerloo, and the worm LOL

[DaveD]

off topic reply removed by Admin.

[reggid]

at the end of the day by all accounts there were sizeable gains (whatever they may have been) from a stock car using MS, removal of AFM and replaced with map sensor and wasted spark. If people doubt the figures then be patient as in the end the truth will probably be known through furter testing etc. The question is whats needed to run wasted spark with a standalone system?

[toby]

A coil pack at least is required to run wasted spark.

[fowler]

coil pack and just V3.1 MS

[CHRISP]

Coil pack and wide band o2 lamber fitted and a bit of remapping by ant no adjustment to turbo 8 hp gain ., both run on said rolling road.

[Gunni]

Gunni, I have the utmost resect for you , and everything you have posted is relative, Why you have chosen to join the ranks of nay-sayers and doubters is beyond me though, you and Salman asked for facts, I have given you the facts, argue about those, not whats better faster longer stronger( delete as applicable ) Indeed you're understanding is beyond anyones on here, and your post reflects that , however understand one thing, 99.99999% of people reading your posts will understand nothing of what you've posted, so upon occasion I and others will use more simple terms to express what/whay etc, NEVER assume thats a lack of understanding on behalf of the poster.

I SUGGESTED that the MS can extrapolate quicker - again no cast in stone verdict, may I state AGAIN for the record, no-one was more surprised at the output than those present on the day.

I also suggested, by posting data from other vehicles that the dyno is a little optimistic as per Andyboys posting above yours(read between the lines dude.. ), however using dyno data from the same dyno on comparable vehilces has resulted in more pages of flaming, I attempted to add context yet that was ignored until two pages later.

My involvement with this thread ends here,

You ask for facts and figures, they are there for all to see.

Did it make that power ??? only an engine dyno would answer that question- ANY other RR dyno is subject to the same varaibles IMHO so none can provide the definative answer to all the questions.

I hate the fact that everyone use PB wrongness on fully 3D mappable systems, thats pure laziness and a willingness to earn £Â£ over pushing a good product out the door.


To close , no-one came to strip and inspect my car today, nor expressed an interest in doing as such so , to my mind there's a slim chance you believe the figures are closer to the truth than you dare to admit.

Thanks to Andyboy for reading the posts properly and realising the data was open to some interpretation.

Know this, people on this board have a VERY high respect for the work you are doing and the level of knowledge you seem to have.

When you post something outrageous, people will want to believe it
without doubt, even despite their beliefs in the numbers.

I personally don´t want to see that happen.
If your engine is so healthy and making the stated power based only on the MS and wasted spark and what sounds like massive amounts of tuning , a quick motronic re-install and dyno will show
the "stock" level of the engine, if it is indeed 170hp on the dot and not any more I will have to learn alot more about engines. Obviously on the same dyno with the same ambient temps.

You DO know where I´m coming from,
WOT timing from the stock ECU are as follows above 5k,
19.7 @ 5100
27,6 @ 5400
31,5 @ 5680
31,5 @ 5920
27,6 @ 6320

Now if 170hp is realized at 5800rpm in stock form,
with an advance of 31,5 wich is pretty advanced,
now I don´t know at what advance you have it,
but it´s not going to be releasing 30hp no matter how much it´s advanced,
That´s just me.

But since it´s been confirmed that you yourself assume the dyno is a bit over real numbers, I´ll just leave it at that.

[hoshy]

bugger me.. that was an intersting read!

just because I've spent alot of time reading it, I feel I need to comment

ambient @ 6deg, well tuned map on any management on a really good b25 plus a few % over-read on the dyno - sounds like it could add up, no?

[reggid]

bugger me.. that was an intersting read!

just because I've spent alot of time reading it, I feel I need to comment

ambient @ 6deg, well tuned map on any management on a really good b25 plus a few % over-read on the dyno - sounds like it could add up, no?

i believe it was rerun on Sals dyno at evolve and made 180bhp or thereabouts...........as been said many times its the before and after figures that matters otherwise you don't know what you've gained!!!

[toby]

Before and after figures only REALLY matter if you want to brag about how many horses the old shed is running. If you make changes and feel the difference a dyno set up isn't actually necessary, is it? This topic is focused more on the torque required to make real-world driving more flexible and enjoyable. The nature of the torque curve before and after the modifications would be interesting but since dyno driving and real-world driving are so different they aren't really relevant here.

[Gunni]

Before and after figures only REALLY matter if you want to brag about how many horses the old shed is running. If you make changes and feel the difference a dyno set up isn't actually necessary, is it? This topic is focused more on the torque required to make real-world driving more flexible and enjoyable. The nature of the torque curve before and after the modifications would be interesting but since dyno driving and real-world driving are so different they aren't really relevant here.

Please, forget torque curves, think HP curve as it is independent of rpm while torque curves are.

Nobody can tell the diffrence of 10hp in a 370hp car.
Let alone at 70% throttle and with diffrent boost.

Dyno results are exactly straight forward results of how a car will behave in the real world. You can´t tune mid range on the road to gain maximum efficiency and fuel usage without a DYNO.
It´s just a fact.

Numbers only matter when you look at how a car was before and then after. Saying it feels better is good, but knowing that you have gained on an average og 10hp is knowing and not feeling,
could you tell that you have 10hp more at 5000rpm or 5500rpm?

I think Sal and Ant for instance will agree on this.

[reggid]

Before and after figures only REALLY matter if you want to brag about how many horses the old shed is running. If you make changes and feel the difference a dyno set up isn't actually necessary, is it? This topic is focused more on the torque required to make real-world driving more flexible and enjoyable. The nature of the torque curve before and after the modifications would be interesting but since dyno driving and real-world driving are so different they aren't really relevant here.

by figures i meant overlayed before and after plots as peak numbers are useless........

To see where and how much you've gained you need a dyno before and after otherwise its called guessing. Sure if someones happy to do a mod and feel the improvement and are satisfied then so be it, and your right you don't need a dyno for this but don't try and convince people you've gained 10hp when you don't know where you started from.

Before and after of the torque and power curves will say the same thing.

Gunni the torque curve is useful as differences often show up better here as it is more uniform curve vs rpm so the scale on the graph can be made to show smaller increments to make it easier to read.

[M5pilot]

Ant's car made 180 bhp on our dyno - exactly what we expected from a car with AFM removal and mapping to suit.

I'm trying to convince him to fit a CAT CAM and a manifold so we have another set of figures for a modded 325i but ..... he wants nothing other than a turbo

Sal

[toby]

Interesting, so why is there 20bhp difference between the readings of each dyno? (Let's not get upset about this.)

Sal, that's exactly the combination of mods I thought that car should have after I drove it. It feels like it could rev up so much more freely and quickly with a faster cam, eh? Still I never drove it with a turbo but he loves all that the fella.