lpg conversion anyone ??

[bazza93]

LPG is going to die a death when the government tax it as they do with petrol or diesel.

at the moment it is heavily subsidised with tax incentives, it actually costs more to produce at this time than other fuels due to the nature of its supply and demand.

thats it they get us all to change over to it, then once done........BAM.... there's your tax bill

[StuBeeDoo]

LPG is cheaper because of the tax rate being much lower. Does anyone know how long this tax incentive will last? When it was first bought in there was a 5 year guarantee but that must have expired now?

The price differential is down to lower tax. Although it's theoretically possible for any Chancellor to raise the tax by as much as he sees fit, whenever he sees fit, it is highly unlikely the fuel duty on LPG will rise by more than 1 or 2 pence per litre more than the equivilant duty on petrol and diesel - mainly due to the "green" aspect of LPG combustion.
I read somewhere that if successive governments raised the fuel duty on LPG by 1p more than on petrol/diesel in every budget, it would take over 50 years for LPG to be the same price at the pumps as unleaded.
The price differential may reduce, but it is unlikely that LPG will reach 80% of the pump cost of unleaded within our lifetime. 80% is the point where the running costs would reach parity.
Worth bearing in mind is that most Government vehicles (PM's included), Royal Household vehicles, and even US Presidential vehicles are LPG'd.

[casper8r]

I think the next big thing will be biofuel (diesel alternative), allready very cheap, and if you can't be bothered to filter your own it will allready be available from your local supermarket in the form of vegetable oil, all clean and refined allready at around 40p per litre.

Less popular at the moment is bioethanol (or bioethanol mix, the bio alternative to petrol) the bugatti veyron reputedly gains circa 30hp running on this stuff, and to think the Ford model T was the first biofuel car as it ran on ethanol because there wern't any garages round the corner and the science of refining fuel was in its infancy in 1908.

Look out for petrol pumps dispencing and cars run on petrol and bio ethonol mixes in 2008. Thee however will simply be 85% normal petrol to 15% ethonol (or approx).

Had a chat with a friend a couple of weeks ago, he actually owns a company that is developing alternative fuel solutions and knows his stuff. His opinion on LPG - "it's a red herring" and he also seems to think it's not going to become more widespread, quite the opposite, he said it's on decrease in UK.

As for bio-fuels... I don't think these will ever replace petrol, but surely could be mixed in to reduce dependency on crude oil. It's simply not viable to replace petrol with biofuel because it's not sustainable.

That being said, LPG is not a bad alternative for the time being, especially if you can do a DIY conversion. However considering the points above I don't think spending a couple of grand on a "professionaly" installed sequential system makes sense in case of e30's.

[StuBeeDoo]

it actually costs more to produce at this time than other fuels due to the nature of its supply and demand.

LPG is a by-product of crude oil refining, so the production costs are the same as the production costs of petrol. I think I'm right in saying that worldwide there is actually a surplus of LPG at the moment.

[march109]

Its not that simple tho, with the introduction of vehicles next year that run on bio diesel, ethanol mixes, even fuel cells the oil companies (who supply petrol forecourts) are going to have to supply more of whichever one dominates the market. and provide all the fuels for these new cars.

Since LPG is an add on kit (at least I can't think of a production car that runs of lpg from the factory), it will become less supported, if the supply reduces so forecourts can concentrate on fuel supply for factory built cars running on alternatives to LPG then they will be free to raise they're prices to what they want. The supply will drop but demand remain stable then prices are free to rise. As long as the price remains below petrol which the same car can still run on it will always be the more attractive option.

The chancellor isn't the onl one who can influence the price of LPG. I admit its unlikey between even the two to rise that fast, but LPG is harder to produce than the new alternatives I can see oil companies dropping support for it slowly when they can produce alternatives cheaper and increase revenue that way.

[bazza93]

I think the next big thing will be biofuel (diesel alternative), allready very cheap, and if you can't be bothered to filter your own it will allready be available from your local supermarket in the form of vegetable oil, all clean and refined allready at around 40p per litre.

Less popular at the moment is bioethanol (or bioethanol mix, the bio alternative to petrol) the bugatti veyron reputedly gains circa 30hp running on this stuff, and to think the Ford model T was the first biofuel car as it ran on ethanol because there wern't any garages round the corner and the science of refining fuel was in its infancy in 1908.

Look out for petrol pumps dispencing and cars run on petrol and bio ethonol mixes in 2008. Thee however will simply be 85% normal petrol to 15% ethonol (or approx).

Had a chat with a friend a couple of weeks ago, he actually owns a company that is developing alternative fuel solutions and knows his stuff. His opinion on LPG - "it's a red herring" and he also seems to think it's not going to become more widespread, quite the opposite, he said it's on decrease in UK.

As for bio-fuels... I don't think these will ever replace petrol, but surely could be mixed in to reduce dependency on crude oil. It's simply not viable to replace petrol with biofuel because it's not sustainable.

That being said, LPG is not a bad alternative for the time being, especially if you can do a DIY conversion. However considering the points above I don't think spending a couple of grand on a "professionaly" installed sequential system makes sense in case of e30's.

red herring, that was my initial thoughts, hence that is why i started this thread, but it seems to many zoners comments on this thread that it is not.
it seems to be a viable solution to cut running costs

[oze30]

In Oz, they have used LPG with diesel to burn more cleanly and you do get a power boost.

Incidently, I do have 2 M30 LPG kits for sale with tanks.

[march109]

it actually costs more to produce at this time than other fuels due to the nature of its supply and demand.

LPG is a by-product of crude oil refining, so the production costs are the same as the production costs of petrol. I think I'm right in saying that worldwide there is actually a surplus of LPG at the moment.

I wasn't aware there was a surpluss, but I was aware that they use it in refineries for other purposes as it is more difficult to transport and store safely than other fuels, what I should have said is production for use as a widespread publically available fuel is more expensive.

I also wouldn't argue that at the moment it is a very appealing alternative fuel to petrol, and anyone who jumps on the LPG bandwagon now will certainly make savings compared to those that don't since the theorised increases will take many years to come into force.

You will easily make your money back on the system, and then some in that time.

[StuBeeDoo]

I don't think spending a couple of grand on a "professionaly" installed sequential system makes sense in case of e30's.

It doesn't. SGI on an E30 is overkill. The mixer system is perfectly adequate.
As I posted above, my system - all brand new, with full supplier back-up - cost less than £750 to fit. Any more than that outlay on an E30 would be a waste.
If you used second-hand kit from eBay, you could do it for a lot less than that - Brian bought a kit recently off ebay for £160 IIRC - but as with everything bought through eBay, caution has to be the watchword and you have to know exactly what you're buying.

[daimlerman]

Just to make things painfully clear,is it this sequential system that will take advantage of the higher octane value?

[StuBeeDoo]

I was aware that they use it in refineries for other purposes

It's also used as propellant in aerosols and as refrigeration gas.

[bazza93]

so who want's to write up an article and put it to the mods then ????
i know i started the thread but i am not clued up enough on it
got to be worth it, saving money and keeping the e30's on the road

[march109]

Probably oil company propeganda, but I read if every available hectere of land in the UK were used to grow crops that could be used to produce bio fuel, there would still not be enough bio fuel to replace all the normal fuels we use every day in this country. Plus we'd probably go hungry and the bio fuel would be super expensive.

Its just one alternative and not a solution to the wider problem.

[march109]

Just to make things painfully clear,is it this sequential system that will take advantage of the higher octane value?

Neither system make better use of the higher octane rating, if you had a turbo that would.

The octane rating is a measure of how much energy is required to ignite the fuel, not how much energy the fuel will produce.

[StuBeeDoo]

Just to make things painfully clear,is it this sequential system that will take advantage of the higher octane value?

SGI is the terminology for gas injection. The hardware is similar to electronic fuel (petrol) injection. You have individual injectors for each cylinder, usually fitted in the inlet manifold as close as possible to the petrol injectors. In fact, I've heard that at least one injector manufacturer is working on a single dual-fuel injector to use as a direct replacement for the standard petrol injector.
The mixer system works (on an M20 engine) by fitting a venturi between the AFM and the TB. The petrol injectors are disabled when running on LPG and the engine breathes in the LPG/air mix. The main disadvantage with this system (in some engines) is that back-fires are possible, so you have to have some means of venting them. SGI doesn't have this problem. IIRC, Brian has only ever known M20's on LPG to backfire a handful of times - and only when provoked. It hasn't happened to me - yet - and I often rev my engine in excess of 6k rpm (have to, it's only a 2ltr!!).
So to answer your question simply, it doesn't matter which system you use - from an "advantage of the increased octane rating" point-of-view.
Hope that's clarified it for you.
Stuart.

[DRIFTBOY]

so who want's to write up an article and put it to the mods then ????
i know i started the thread but i am not clued up enough on it
got to be worth it, saving money and keeping the e30's on the road

As and when I get to fit my M30 LPG kit I'll be happy to provide a write up of how it was done.

I hope to have much better knowledge on the subject by then too.

That's if I can get internet at home again (AOL has f****d up AGAIN!!!).
Don't get too much Zone time at work so I have to try catch up whenever I can at the moment!

[bazza93]

so who want's to write up an article and put it to the mods then ????
i know i started the thread but i am not clued up enough on it
got to be worth it, saving money and keeping the e30's on the road

As and when I get to fit my M30 LPG kit I'll be happy to provide a write up of how it was done.

I hope to have much better knowledge on the subject by then too.

That's if I can get internet at home again (AOL has f****d up AGAIN!!!).
Don't get too much Zone time at work so I have to try catch up whenever I can at the moment!

welldone for voluntering will look forward to seeing it

[DRIFTBOY]

No probs!

It won't be for a little while yet though, probably early next year due to other activities I've already got going.

But, the sooner I get it done the sooner I can be saving money!

[Theo]

Are you able to take an LPG car on a ferry or the eurotunnel trains?

[StuBeeDoo]

Are you able to take an LPG car on a ferry or the eurotunnel trains?

Ferries are no problem, but you have to run on petrol while on board.
The tunnel is a different issue. LPG power is banned. They've been "reviewing the situation" for years.

[bazza93]

Are you able to take an LPG car on a ferry or the eurotunnel trains?

Ferries are no problem, but you have to run on petrol while on board.
The tunnel is a different issue. LPG power is banned. They've been "reviewing the situation" for years.

wonder how that works with the blackwall tunnel
it does say at the entrance no gas cylinders

[Theo]

Are you able to take an LPG car on a ferry or the eurotunnel trains?

Ferries are no problem, but you have to run on petrol while on board.
The tunnel is a different issue. LPG power is banned. They've been "reviewing the situation" for years.

Cheers for clearing that up Stu, I was under the influence that you can't take them on the ferries, tempted to lpg my 3.5 now.

[StuBeeDoo]

Are you able to take an LPG car on a ferry or the eurotunnel trains?

Ferries are no problem, but you have to run on petrol while on board.
The tunnel is a different issue. LPG power is banned. They've been "reviewing the situation" for years.

Cheers for clearing that up Stu, I was under the influence that you can't take them on the ferries, tempted to lpg my 3.5 now.

I haven't been abroad - yet - but IIRC, Brian said it's banned from some road tunnels.
I suppose it's ok if you know in advance, and can plan your intended route around it. Wor Lass wants to go to France next year, and navigating 'round LPG bans is the least of my worries.

[StuBeeDoo]

wonder how that works with the blackwall tunnel
it does say at the entrance no gas cylinders

So does the Tyne Tunnel, but I've been through several times since I converted. TBH, I've never bothered enquiring. If Tunnel Control ever pull me, I'll plead ignorance.


..... Or insanity.

[StuBeeDoo]

Going back, briefly, to the lpg/petrol/road derv duty differential.......
I've read somewhere that another reason that LPG duty is so low is that it is also used as fuel for domestic heating. Unlike red diesel - which is coloured for identification purposes (and is a similar price to the end-user as LPG) - there is no way of potentially identifying for what purpose the LPG was sold unlike the other road fuels.
Can you imagine the uproar if the price of gas bottles rocketed?

[daimlerman]

When I was running on LPG I investigated this.Road type LPG is the sort sold in red bottles as 'butane',rather than the gas I use,for example,on board my boat and comes in blue bottles.The red one's are cheaper in large sizes, but(there is always a but..)the snag is transfering it to your car tank.Your require a pump and suitable adaptors that make it an expensive option.I did discover that heating LPG is usualy the 'better' sort,so if you live beyond the reach of mains gas this may suddenly become more viable as you could 'lose' the extra cost against the overal cost of a domestic LPG gas central heating instalation...with a pump for the cars on the side,so to speak ...

[StuBeeDoo]

Hmmm.
I thought blue bottles were butane and red bottles propane - could be me getting it wrong though.
IIRC, "Autogas" can be blended butane/propane, with different blends for different seasons, but UK Autogas tends to be (virtually?) 100% propane. I'm sure Brian said that French Autogas has higher butane content than ours.

You're right about having LPG central heating and syphoning some off for the car though.

[daimlerman]

Sorry,to much of the falling down juice too early in the day!! Thats why the empty boat blue bottle sat in the back yard says 'butane' on it....it's propane in red bottles that you need....I live in the city centre so LPG central heating is a no go for me.

[Brianmoooore]

Three problems with using red bottles:
1) They are more expensive than buying autogas at a pump, or the savings are minimal.
2)You have to turn the bottle upside down to get liquefied propane out, and bottles tend to have all sorts of cr*p in the bottom that you don't want in your fuel system.
3) If the revenue men get wind that you've been using propane on the road without paying the appropriate duty, then you're in deep shite, including possible forfeit of your car.

Re the bulk propane tanks: All tanks have a bottom liquid draw off point as well as the normal vapour draw off, but a connection to it could attract unwanted attention.

[Brianmoooore]

No problem at all with taking LPG powered cars on ferries, as long as the tank is shut off on the car decks. This is done automatically on any installation that conforms to current regs.
Still banned in the channel tunnel, although if your filler is hidden, no one will know!
Banned in some underground car parks, although I've parked for a week in underground car parks, six stories down, in Paris, and no ones complained.
The only 'banned' place that regularly affects me is a short road tunnel in Rouen. A ban which I totally ignore.

[daimlerman]

So therefore,Brian,you are saying that domestic central heating requires vapour and a car instalation requires liquid?My findings regarding red bottles confirms what you are saying,my problem was transfering the stuff under pressure and the weight of the large size red bottles....plus the worry that a supplier may wonder why I was going through the stuff so quickly....

[Brianmoooore]

You can get most of a red bottle to transfer without a pump by lifting it (upside down) higher than the car.
Gently heating the propane bottle helps as well. Electric blankets have been used for this.
Your supplier is required to report any suspicions of gas being used illegally!