cam upgrade & big bore throttle body

[fowler]

An S38 engine with vanos......

Agreed a PITA engine with out the added bonus of Vanos is just

[M5pilot]

yeah....I wish I had real engine without the racing pedigree.....

I take it you've worked on lots of S38's with A-Tech to know it's a PITA?

All engines can be a PITA if not maintained!

[fowler]

why lie s38 in a E30 now thats a weapon

[M5pilot]

Ok, all 3 of us are going a little off topic now.

Anyway, I'll be back in the evening and I hope to see some info on the dyno conditions and some real evidence of BTB's sapping midrange power.

Sal

[fowler]

+tatty bye have fun

[Ant]

oh dear.

NO Sal, I said that from dartford toll booth to the M20 turnoff the cars were pretty much even, Simons touring was rather sick a bit later on that night though as a result of the caning all 3 recieved

if you want to put words in my mouth, its polite to ask 1st dude

re the massive debate over my dyno, look at the shape- good by anyones standard, I also provided data on other vehicles dynoed @ the same time to add some context to the post.

I'm not claiming anything here, just making sure ALL the facts are there in an open debate.

Tyre pressures were 31 psi ( 225/45Z16 on 9J )
ambient temp was 18.5 degrees in the dyno cell( 6 ambient as it was 11.45 @ night )
baro pressure was 997 Mbars according to the startup baro correction log.

As I said before, if you wish to discredit the dyno used, talk to the owners, its not mine but do bear in mind the figures recorded at the recent dyno day @ Fritz where most people were agreed it was about spot on, better still drive a "known output" car down on the 4th Nov and back to back it with your unit ?

Talk to Richard, 01823 674459 and tell him his dyno is shit I doubt it will be appreciated dude.

[M5pilot]

POST EDITED:

I don't need to drive a car to any other dyno to compare. Not saying their dyno is shit, who's putting words in who's mouth now? I have said above that your engine may just an extraordinary lump but we won't know until we can:

1) get it another known and accurate dyno
2) do a back to back test with your MS and a standard 325i setup.

Did Richard fit an Air intake probe to the car? If so then depending on where he put it the results can be heavily skewed. This is a very easy mistake to make which I have done in the past. If the AIT probe is touching part of the filter it can get a false reading (much higher than actual air intake temp). The dyno would then over compensate and givea much higher figure than actual.

On our dyno this information is printed out by default so people can see the difference between ambient and inlet temperature.

On a standard M20 airbox even doing motorway driving the AIT is always around 5 degrees higher than ambient. We aim to get within this on the dyno, sometimes we have to have the fan running for quite some time.

Bring your car down to us on the 4th and we can then see what it does against all the rest of the cars on the same day under the same conditions.

Can you provide some printed documentation to give the conditions? Our dyno does this by default on the graphs.



Can you map the Alpina for me? You might be able to get more power on the road than both myself and Bexleys could.

Play nice Mr A-Tech! If myself and Fowler can have a grown up debate without swearing then so can you.

Sal

[snoops]

all this tech talk

why dont you get the car dynoed on another dyno as well to compare results and eliminate any inaccuracy?

[Ant]

possibly not Dave, every car is unique and there are good and bad ones out there. MS is not the reason for the plot, its more the state of tune than anything and how much timing, how rich etc that affects the outcome, plus the speed at which the ECU can respond to the data it recieves.

The graphs are there to back up Fowlers posts, they exist for no other reason than that. As ususal the nay-sayers were ripping the poor guy to shreds, his only input was to have stood and watched the cars being dynoed, and enjoyed the whole experience

@ Sal, I'd not dream of altering the MBE mapping , thats your toy to play with, a nice toy @ that.

I have AFR data should anyone require it, the maps will NOT be made available though, thoise are only of interest to me.

[DaveD]

possibly not Dave, every car is unique and there are good and bad ones out there. MS is not the reason for the plot, its more the state of tune than anything and how much timing, how rich etc that affects the outcome, plus the speed at which the ECU can respond to the data it receives.
.

According to the previous posts the ms defines the state of tune therefore it should all be down the this plus the map?..I was under the impression the ms replaced the ecu in its major functions ..or does ms piggyback..

[fowler]

oh joy we have more doubters so what dave you have through money at car so what its the way the tuning of MS that complenets the mods for attached to the vehice it has been taken out of context
yet again its turned in to a bitch fight.

so what it made that power on that dyno on that day. i was just reporting that fact.
so what have we got to prove to anyone each time you post its just BTTB this bttb that who actually cares
it all makes a diffrence to the characteristics of the engine which in turn gives you more POWER
THAT IS THE RESULT THAT EVERY CAR OWNER WANTS.
so every mod has its benefit put them all to gether and you have a well rounded automobile
it just depends what route you want to take.

[fowler]

to achieve the end result.

[DaveD]

oh joy we have more doubters so what dave you have through money at car so what its the way the tuning of MS that complenets the mods for attached to the vehice it has been taken out of context
yet again its turned in to a bitch fight.

so what it made that power on that dyno on that day. i was just reporting that fact.
so what have we got to prove to anyone each time you post its just BTTB this bttb that who actually cares
it all makes a diffrence to the characteristics of the engine which in turn gives you more POWER
THAT IS THE RESULT THAT EVERY CAR OWNER WANTS.
so every mod has its benefit put them all to gether and you have a well rounded automobile
it just depends what route you want to take.

i feel ,most of the above is gobbledygook..I asked none of the questions you have answered all i am trying to understand is what ant was saying, it seems to me that this is the philosophers stone of tuning..a free lunch and there is no such thing as that or maybe there is..but it has to be proven

[fowler]

you talk in rhythms
free lunch ??
it has been proved the proof is on the paper
why should we have to prove it to you or any one it was just an observation.
you have your views i have mine.
if you really believe we would conduct and unfair dyno then broadcast it you are very much mistaken my friend
its no benefit to us
its no my fault you don't believe us you have that right
i have no idea what mods you have done to your car and you claim miller maf is the best thing since sliced bread but why has it not taken off if the product is so good ???

[DaveD]

you talk in rhythms
free lunch ??
it has been proved the proof is on the paper
why should we have to prove it to you or any one it was just an observation.
you have your views i have mine.
if you really believe we would conduct and unfair dyno then broadcast it you are very much mistaken my friend
its no benefit to us
its no my fault you don't believe us you have that right
i have no idea what mods you have done to your car and you claim miller maf is the best thing since sliced bread but why has it not taken off if the product is so good ???

You vehemently state this is the truth...how come it is no one else's...no one else has claimed an extra 35bp for it..no enthusiast on all of the sites I have visited have made the claims you have about ms and if you wish us to believe you, you have to prove it or suffer criticism.

I do not and never have claim that the miller maf is anything but an aid to better performance and if you can remember that far back the original thread was how to get more TORQUE not about excessive BHP claims...maybe it hasn't taken off here as it is an imported product and quite expensive,who knows but it does what it says it does
which has been proved ..( tested it earlier this year
http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... ght=miller )

by the way what rhythm do I talk in jazz rock waltz time..and if you don't understand "free lunch" maybe "something for nothing" might do!

[fowler]

thank you for your comments! Mr jive talking dave D
I was only stating on what i have seen paper (and in the fleash) does not lie, nor do I but for this debate to carry on any further you have to be willing to change your mind that its a possibility that it may of been found to get more power from an M20 with out going the traditional methods.
Maybe Mr Ant has found another way of performing miricales with the m20. i think wine to water is another one too.
The reason people dont post things like this as is any flames of a break through are pissed on
From what i am lead to believe all you are doing is piggy backing of the moronic and torque from the miller conversion is down the to resolution of the maf and chip aiding bottom end torque.
i can think of better ways to spend my money.
I have to prove nothing as i am only stating a fact its down to the owner of the car to prove it.
dont wory you don have to patronise me i am clearly not stupid.

[bss325i]

After all this debate it is still not clear to me what is best for my next step.

[oakey]

BSS^ I've decided to go the MS route and I'm going to call and tomorow to arrange getting it fitted. So 'hopefully' we will soon have some more info about the pros and cons and any power gain from MS

[M5pilot]

The reason you've not got a clear answer is because everyone has their own opinion.

The biggest problem is that hardly anyone has the experience of driving cars which have MAF conversions or are running standalone.....except in reality myself, Andyboy and Ant.

My personal feelings have been stated and I'll state them again now that most of the heated and technical debate is over.

The MAF conversion using the Unichip or by altering the chip itself to suit is the best compromise as far as driveability and consistency are concerned. The reason the driveability and consistency remain in this setup is because your keeping all the origional mapping on the BMW ECU which BMW have developed under many many conditions. Let's face it, a 325i with a good AFM and all sensors working properly are very driveable cars and all this method is doing is adding a better air metering device and also carrying out a remap so that the new MAF signal can be understood buy the ECU and your mapping to get more power aswell.

The standalone system is good also but your relying on the person mapping the car to get the driveability and consistency under the wide range of weather conditions. This can take time and you have to be very patient to get the desired results.

One is not really going to give you more power than the other under full throttle conditions.

There are a very large amount of people who have had MAF conversions on here and I've been at the mapping sessions when they've been done. The owners have mostly walked away with very large grins on their faces!

Quite a few of my own customers have opted for the MAF conversion and none have been dissapointed.

Having met you and understanding what you want from a car it's very probable that the MAF conversion would suit you more.

Sal

[M5pilot]

BSS^ I've decided to go the MS route and I'm going to call and tomorow to arrange getting it fitted. So 'hopefully' we will soon have some more info about the pros and cons and any power gain from MS

MS is a brand of ECU which will enable you to remove the OE fuelling system.

Every type of Standalone system is going to give pretty much the same results.

It's better for the members to refer to this upgrade/change as going "standalone" or "aftermarket" ECU.

There are many types of aftermarket ECU out there. MS is the cheapest of them all and very much a hobby/ home modifier system. The more serious, better built and retail ones are the MBE, Motec and VEMS.

VEMS is around £300 for the basic unit and the MBE is around £700 for the basic unit. Motec is very very expensive.

Look inside an MBE unit and then look inside an MS.....it's a world apart in terms of quality of components and build quality aswell as features.

Sal

[bss325i]

The main elements im after a good drivabilty in all conditions(this is probably most important), something that is fairly easy to reverse if desired, more power and abbility to accomodate further mods.

[M5pilot]

I'll be doing a MAF conversion to my 325i auto very soon. I'll also have the Alpina here with standalone.

You can come take a drive of both to get a general feel of what each does well and doesn't do well.

The MAF conversion is extremely easy to reverse. Standalone usually requires alot more work. There are no plug and play systems out there unless you have your loom modified.

Sal

[fowler]

are we on the hard sell SAl LOL !!!
no thats a good idea but for Oakey running an old 073 ecu it would be better for him to run stand alone as he would not benefit from maf using moronic ver1.1 feel free to correct me if i am wrong Sal
but is not fair to run the two products on manual cars to have a fair comparison

[M5pilot]

The same could be for your hard "A- Tech" sell

If someone has the early Motronic then it really is best to remove it! My god those cars drive like crap on part throttle.

It is unfair to test the MAF and Standalone on two totally different cars with transmissions but there are certain aspects like consistency that can be experienced especially when it comes to cold starts etc.

I can quite easily convert the Alpina to Unichip/MAF and standalone within about 1 hour so that might be a worth while experiment. I have a spare unichip to hand.

btw...I'm not a Unichip dealer

My opinions here are very much unbiased as far as selling the products are concerned. I don't and will never supply MS and unless your a unichip dealer you don't have access to the software and hardware.

Sal

[M5pilot]

I've just spend the last 30 mins looking into the Miller MAF conversion properly. In the past Ant has shown me a unit but I really never took much interest. I never even knew the price!

$520!

At today's exchange rate that's £254.

Shipping is around £40 max so that's £300.

Customs is around 3% on such items but let's assume they get it wrong and over charge at 7%, so that's £320.

Then add VAT to this = £376.

That's rather cheap for something that's plug and play! I haven't really followed the Miller threads so not aware of any problems.

Remapping the Miller Eprom is not really something I think is going to be an issue with a decent emulator so factor in £300 for a proper live remap for cars with lairy cams etc. That's a total of £660-£700.

Miller MAF is so well built too (CNC machined Billet), I remember looking at it at Ant's place and saying it's over engineered.

[bss325i]

Who can sell, fit and map the uni chip and MAF for me if i decide upon this?

[fowler]

i think bexley's is a uni chip dealer

[Gunni]

its more the state of tune than anything and how much timing, how rich etc that affects the outcome, plus the speed at which the ECU can respond to the data it recieves.

I have AFR data should anyone require it, the maps will NOT be made available though, thoise are only of interest to me.

plus the speed at wich the ecu can respond to data ?

You have got to be kidding me, the motronic is even so fast that to it the engine is basically STOP. Engine Conditions don´t change faster then even the slow motronic, don´t try and push the ecu speed as giving the HP as it doesn´t. That´s false advertisement.

I require that AFR data.
I also would like to see the timing information for 100kpa.
or publish them here. I have stock maps to compare to and others.
Only they and they alone will show if the dyno chart is right

Here are some facts about engine airflow.
The intake system of the M20 goes from the Valve to the air horn in the filter box. at WOT at over about 4500rpm the AFM is fully open and causes NO restriction, and at that same point intake pulse tuning will not get anybetter with a different intake setup before the throttle body.
Surtenly no where near 5hp, let alone 30hp.
Especially since the exhaust has not been changed all the restrictions there remain the same.

Even the best dynoed stock engines in the USA have not made it past 150whp or anywhere else.

getting the AFR right is the least of your worries and was proven to me on a dyno, going from 13.5 down to 12.5 made about 1-2hp diffrence.
and anything below 12.5 on a NA engine that has such low compression is plain stupid.

There is no way I will take said dyno graph as truth before seeing other information to back it up, and I suggest nobody take such extreme cases as true as they never are. And I can´t belive Ant that your faith/lack of understanding of engine operations doesn´t doubt this one bit.

There is only 1 way one engine management system can out do another one.

[Ant]

I have taken an open and broad minded approach to everything , where did I state that the dyno is 100% gospel ?? fact is on that dyno, that night those results were dished out, all involved there on that night were surpised with the results obtained from my red turd, me included, hence the repeated runs and the other dynos to get a comparison.

There was Myself, Dave(random)Fowler( Ben) Chris P-Chris, another Fritz staffer( sorry forgot name) and another guy with an E36Evo present.

The fact is, the Dyno printed the figs out, and I posted them for the sake of someone else's reputation,as he was being labbelled a liar( plain and simple terms ) with this thread quickly spiralling waay off topic.

As for faith, I have faith in the products I use,and the methods I use, my posts here and elsewhere have reflected that, Agreed without another dyno the results can only be taken as a freak ocurrance, but what if the results stack up ? now that would be an interesting read huh.

As I have stated, those that cry foul take it up with the dyno owners, I merely used their equipment to map Richards 635 on Omex 7100 so the poor bugger could get home, my dyno runs were pure R+D fun as there was time for that on the day(night )

Just a reminder for you.

my car popped out regular 199-202 runs back to back
Daves M50tu popped 215 back to back
ChrisP's M40T popped 171 back to back
Modded M30 on Cam and Standalone did 260@5200 ( iirc )
Those other figs were posted with the original dyno prints as comparison,

Make your own minds up, the timing map is my business I'm afraid Gunni.

[Gunni]

, but what if the results stack up ? now that would be an interesting read huh.

Then the engine isn´t stock.
That´s just how simple that is.

[1an]

Ant in the noon year ill have an engine that you can prove this theory once again, (we will be popping by at some point)

this is one of them subjects where people will continue to argue as and dont get me wrong there are many ways of doing things but a dyno plot is a dyno plot at the end of the day, yes it would be nice to see it on 2 or maybe 3 different dyno's and take an average but i doubt that will happen.

[Gunni]

A dyno plot is not always correct that is the problem.
Also how dyno runs are done skeews the results, and most often not intentionally.

[bss325i]

BSS^ I've decided to go the MS route and I'm going to call and tomorow to arrange getting it fitted. So 'hopefully' we will soon have some more info about the pros and cons and any power gain from MS

Is this along with your TBs?

[DaveD]

I've just spend the last 30 mins looking into the Miller MAF conversion properly. In the past Ant has shown me a unit but I really never took much interest. I never even knew the price!

$520!

At today's exchange rate that's £254.

Shipping is around £40 max so that's £300.

Customs is around 3% on such items but let's assume they get it wrong and over charge at 7%, so that's £320.

Then add VAT to this = £376.

That's rather cheap for something that's plug and play! I haven't really followed the Miller threads so not aware of any problems.

Remapping the Miller Eprom is not really something I think is going to be an issue with a decent emulator so factor in £300 for a proper live remap for cars with lairy cams etc. That's a total of £660-£700.

Miller MAF is so well built too (CNC machined Billet), I remember looking at it at Ant's place and saying it's over engineered.

I paid $400 for mine in Jan(sale) VAT £20.72 parcelforce clearance fee £ 13.50 shipping$35 and I assume if you give the cam profiles to Miller they might be able to map to suit (ok not as good as a live map but can be run)

[reggid]

A dyno plot is not always correct that is the problem.
Also how dyno runs are done skeews the results, and most often not intentionally.

there have always been problems with RR dyno numbers ever since they have been used to estimate bhp.......dynos are nothing more a tool to load the engine against so that engine modifications, running conditions, tuning can be evaluated......using dynos to determine bhp always opens a can of worms because the resulsts can vary substantially......a RR day is probably the most useful power run as there are other similar cars present usually.

From my point of view i am either going to do a unichip with MAF or WOLF 3D with MAP the later is twice as much with the obvious advantages....the former would be choice if there was asmuch support here as you guys do in the UK but the Wolf is made here and the person with the most knowledge of the WOLF tuning is within walking distance from where i work. My last experince with the unichip was not that good it left me with a flat spot at 2500rpm probably over advanced timing....the guy was very experinced with unichips so either he did a half assed job or the unichip has alot of limitations and don't want to spend 200 to find out the later......

(Sal the WOLF is as close to plug and play as possible with standalone http://wolfems.cart.net.au/cat/32992.html which comes with a connector that connects to the standard motronic harness)

so really what i and most others are after the improvement that can be had with a really good tune without AFM and perhaps a better ignition system.

Whether car made 200bhp is actually irrelevant, whats more important is what it made before so you have your estimated gains from the mods as it may have been 185bhp or 160bhp when stock which makes evaluating the effectiveness of the mod different........and having a before and after almost elimates any calibration errors unless these are huge.

Basically a bhp number from a dyno in isolation is a waste of paper really.....to come close to prove a genuine 200bhp IMO you'd really need atleast a second opinion on a different dyno.....nobody here belives you can't make 200bhp on a dyno on a m2025 with mods in question but the isue is whether results are correct and i don't think anyone is claiming delibrate deception