Conversion for the convertible: M30 it is! DONE!

[Ziggy]

The thing I did Jon was to tack it with an arc welder, then gave someone at work £20 and he made it look very pretty. I personally would tack it and take it to a fabrication place, it will take them about 20 mins instead of your(if you are anything like me) 5 hours of swearing and grinding!

Off topic: are you going to LA POD?

Sounds like a plan - if I get it all cut & lined up, I'm sure I can find someone to sort it out for me

Can't make the Pod - I'll be in Italy
Hence the request for volunteers to let me have a ride in their car at Gaydon!

[FormerMember]

Sureley the M30 engine is only 26KILOS heavier than the M20 one.?

M30 212kg, M20 171kg so it's ~40kg heavier + bigger gearbox etc..
In cabrio it's easily balanced by relocating battery to trunk.

Don't use M10 gearbox if you want to cruise big speeds with sensible revs. You'll also have problems with flywheel, clutch and starter, so use 535 box.

Original 325 fuel pump is good enough. E28 535 radiator should also be used, fits straight without any problems

And then to M20 vs M30 power-debate (shame that multi-quote doesn't exist on this forum).
M20 produces 170-180hp with little mods and power comes 4500 - 6000.
M30 makes 220hp with little mods, power comes 1000-6000. 200Nm @ 1000rpm, 320Nm @ 4000rpm vs. M20 230Nm max @ 4000....
0-100km/h M30 with 3.6 differential ~6,5s vs. M20 powered E30 7,8s.
Top speed M20 powered cabrio 218km/h, M30 powered cabrio 235km/h.

And the list just goes on and on. M30 is easily the best option if making "budget-power". It just pulls the car so effortlessy - just what you need in cabrio. No big "power-jump" @ 4000rpm, just linear powercurve 1-6krpm.

Low budget: M30 - you can turbo it if you want more power later. Nothing big with the swap and M30 lasts 1 000 000 miles when serviced correctly.
Medium budget: M52 - better fuel consumption, 230hp / 300Nm easily. EWS and wiring are problems.
Big budget / project: M60 is "the thing" in E30 cabrio, 300hp / 400Nm and that V8 sound. Not easy swap, costs alot but it has bullocks (or however you say that in english )

[Ziggy]

Thanks for the input Jonsku

Totally agree with your ideas of big/med/small budget conversions too - great way of looking at it. Thing is, the M52 doesn't really have much advantage for me - fuel consumption doesn't bother me at all! The E30's just a weekend car now The simplicity of the m30 conversion is far more attractive than a few mpg, as is the cost of replacement engines etc.

M60 would be awesome, no doubt. Not for me at the moment, but who knows - maybe I'll go that way rather than turboing the M30 in the future.

So is that, that then?! M30s can be made to sound good I'm sure... will be sad to hear the last of the m20 though
So... Jon... when am I coming to collect my first bits?!

[Toby_Unna]

M30 212kg, M20 171kg so it's ~40kg heavier + bigger gearbox etc..

the e34 gearbox is the same getrag 260 as the 325i box, just a larger output flange and a different bellhousing pattern cast in to the case. there's no weight difference.


as far as i'm concerned m30s are just a bigger m20 Jon, they can sound lovely.

i think you know what you need to do

[Ziggy]

as far as i'm concerned m30s are just a bigger m20 Jon, they can sound lovely.

i think you know what you need to do

Doesn't sound like I have much choice, does it?!
Don't know if Jon's gearbox is the dogleg or not - I seem to remember that they're not as strong, but do they take the same prop & clutch, & fit the m20 shifter? If so, I'll go with it anyway - not much hassle to swap a box if necessary (plus dog-leg's cool!).

So - the shopping list:

Engine mounts - e30.de unless I find some elsewhere
Gearbox - E28 m535i - Our friend, Mr MSM
Clutch - E28 m535i - Mr MSM (or a new one depending on how it looks)
Fly - E28 m535i - Mr MSM
Rad - E28 m535i - Mr MSM
Prop - Custom with front half of Jons, back half of mine, if I don't happen to find a cheap E30 M3 one in the mean time.
Throttle cable -Jon's car?
Altenator, PAS pump, airbox? Jon's any use?

& then, a cheap, probably auto E34 / E32, or just the engine...
Anything else I've missed?

[FormerMember]

as far as i'm concerned m30s are just a bigger m20 Jon, they can sound lovely.

i think you know what you need to do

M30 with tubular manifold & big exhaust sounds awesome

Here's mine last summer, original exhaust-manifold, dirty car, valves unadjusted etc etc but i think you get a picture of the sound
www.tkk.fi/~jhaukile/IMGP0093.MOV

Doesn't sound like I have much choice, does it?!
Don't know if Jon's gearbox is the dogleg or not - I seem to remember that they're not as strong, but do they take the same prop & clutch, & fit the m20 shifter? If so, I'll go with it anyway - not much hassle to swap a box if necessary (plus dog-leg's cool!).

Dogleg-boxes are quite rare and their gearing is quite short so acceleration is good with those. I've one and it seems to be little heavier than original 260/5 and little bit longer too. You need E30 M3 gearbox-holder and E24 635csi rubbermounts also with that ;)
Clutch is the same, hardy-thingie is lot bigger than in M20.

Engine mounts - e30.de unless I find some elsewhere
Gearbox - E28 m535i - Our friend, Mr MSM
Clutch - E28 m535i - Mr MSM (or a new one depending on how it looks)
Fly - E28 m535i - Mr MSM
Rad - E28 m535i - Mr MSM
Prop - Custom with front half of Jons, back half of mine, if I don't happen to find a cheap E30 M3 one in the mean time.
Throttle cable -Jon's car?
Altenator, PAS pump, airbox? Jon's any use?

e30.de "shop" is nowadays www.300mm.de , lots of other interesting stuff there also ;)
You can use your old, M20, throttle cable.

I'd recommend relocating battery to trunk (then you need the long batterycable from hardtop 325). Expansion-tank from facelift E30 325 is nicely fitted near ABS-unit and windshield-washertank from 325ix goes nicely to batterys place.

Propshaft needs to be from behind dogleg-box if you'll going to use one. It's the same as in M3.

However, good luck with the project. Not hard thing to do

[Toby_Unna]

the box jon had in his m535 was non dogleg i think, which is a good thing. the dogleg one uses the same fly and clutch but needs a different box crossmember, prop length and the shifter design is completely different. so if you build it with that box then it breaks (which it will) there's a lot of work to swap to the overdrive box.

shopping list looks good. i think an e30 m40 throttle cable will work, that's what i had on mine. e28 won't, e30 m20 might.

[ric325i]

oh yes the m30 it is!

they do sound very good! they keep the m20 6 pot whirl but have a slight 'lug lug lug lug lug' noise to the engine which reminds you its big!

well i hope you pass on all the m20 goodness you have to someone as i bet thats a good motor!

oh you can use the e34 rad if you push the engine far enough back

[FormerMember]

the e34 gearbox is the same getrag 260 as the 325i box, just a larger output flange and a different bellhousing pattern cast in to the case. there's no weight difference.

-E34 / E32 (M30B35) used getrag 260/6, it's the strongest getrag 260 made.
-E23 / E24 / E28 (M30B34) used getrag 260/5.

Both are reinforced so they are little bit heavier than 260 from M20B25, bigger bellhousing etc etc but yes, basically they are same as 260 from M20B25.

The weight-difference ain't very big but the difference in torque they can handle is remarkable. So if you plan turboing the engine seriously (+600hp) you should get getrag 260/6, don't bother with the others.

[ric325i]

+600 in a e30....esspecially a cab!

that would be a cool cab it may twist in 2 and snap but it would be a cool cab

[Ziggy]

I think by the time it gets to 600hp, swapping gearboxes will be the least of my worries! Sounds like Jon's box'll do just fine Any other ancilliaries that I can use from the E28 lump? Just means that I'll either have spares, or I can get just an engine/loom/ECU for a potentially lower price

E28 bits: Flywheel, gearbox, clutch, prop...
Alternator, Starter motor, PAS pump?

E34/E32 (auto?) m30b35 engine, inc engine wiring loom, ECU, inlet mani, exhaust mani, TB, AFM, sump, airbox, Alternator?, Starter motor? PAS pump?

Not going to rebuild an engine before I sling it in, but are there any obvious service things to do other than plugs / fluids / filters? Oil pump / water pump?

[Gunni]

I´d reccomend the E32/E34 engines

parts availability,
more updated engine management,
no need to swap pans and pickups,

And they are only about 17year old instead of 20-30year old engines so they probably are in a better overall
condition,

[Ziggy]

I´d reccomend the E32/E34 engines

parts availability,
more updated engine management,
no need to swap pans and pickups,

And they are only about 17year old instead of 20-30year old engines so they probably are in a better overall
condition,

Sounds good already pretty much what I'd decided to do... just the offer of bits for free (well, might give him something for em!) from an e28 m535i means I might as well get whatever's compatible with an E34 lump, even if the engine itself isn't ideal!

[Toby_Unna]

e28 alt will fit but only if you take the complete aluminium mount bracket from the block too. not sure on the pas pump.

just get an engine with absolutely everything, leave the loom connected to the engine and all ancillaries.

servicing - water pumps cheap, oil pumps less so
it's easy to whip the sump off and remove and inspect the oil pump with the engine out, no bad thing to put a new sump gasket on either because it's a total pain once the engine's in

[Ziggy]

Worrying - http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... ic&t=72354

[gooner1]

Sureley the M30 engine is only 26KILOS heavier than the M20 one.?

M30 212kg, M20 171kg so it's ~40kg heavier + bigger gearbox etc..
In cabrio it's easily balanced by relocating battery to trunk.

Don't use M10 gearbox if you want to cruise big speeds with sensible revs. You'll also have problems with flywheel, clutch and starter, so use 535 box.

Original 325 fuel pump is good enough. E28 535 radiator should also be used, fits straight without any problems

And then to M20 vs M30 power-debate (shame that multi-quote doesn't exist on this forum).
M20 produces 170-180hp with little mods and power comes 4500 - 6000.
M30 makes 220hp with little mods, power comes 1000-6000. 200Nm @ 1000rpm, 320Nm @ 4000rpm vs. M20 230Nm max @ 4000....
0-100km/h M30 with 3.6 differential ~6,5s vs. M20 powered E30 7,8s.
Top speed M20 powered cabrio 218km/h, M30 powered cabrio 235km/h.

And the list just goes on and on. M30 is easily the best option if making "budget-power". It just pulls the car so effortlessy - just what you need in cabrio. No big "power-jump" @ 4000rpm, just linear powercurve 1-6krpm.

Low budget: M30 - you can turbo it if you want more power later. Nothing big with the swap and M30 lasts 1 000 000 miles when serviced correctly.
Medium budget: M52 - better fuel consumption, 230hp / 300Nm easily. EWS and wiring are problems.
Big budget / project: M60 is "the thing" in E30 cabrio, 300hp / 400Nm and that V8 sound. Not easy swap, costs alot but it has bullocks (or however you say that in english )

Not according to these figures M20 - Straight 6 cylinder SOHC 12V. Baby Six. 1977-1992. 117kg 258lbs
Used in E21 320, E21 320i/6, E28, E30, E34, E21/30 323i, E30 325e and E28 528e
2.0i (129bhp), 2.3i (143bhp), 2.5i (170bhp), 2.7e (125bhp)

M30 - Straight 6 cylinder SOHC 12V. Big Six. 1973-1993. 143kg 315lbs
Used in E12 525/528, E28 525i, E23 725i, 2800CS, E28 528i, E23 728i, 3.0CS/i/L, 3.0Si, E12 530i, E23 730i, 3.3Li, 633, 732i, 733i, 535i, 635i,

but as you say battery relocation would make even less d ifference up front.

[ric325i]

Worrying - http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... ic&t=72354

oh yes its started!

good man

and once again spadge is the passer of the m30 parts.....thats where i got my 535i all those months ago.

but i think i had further to go to get my m30 - difference is the big lump was still in the big 5.

i hope you have a big van for the big 6

[Ziggy]

oh yes its started!

good man

and once again spadge is the passer of the m30 parts.....thats where i got my 535i all those months ago.

but i think i had further to go to get my m30 - difference is the big lump was still in the big 5.

i hope you have a big van for the big 6

If he still has it next weekend then it will indeed have started... could go see Jon in Loughborough at the same time...

Not got a van...

... got a pickup though!

[ric325i]

sweet that will do the job!

love it

[Andy335Touring]

3 DAYS TILL TRANSFORMERS THE MOVIE!!!

Seen it, just not on the big screen

Add E34 down pipes to your list.

[Ziggy]

Add E34 down pipes to your list.

E32 no good?

& where abouts do they come out on an E30?

[ric325i]

3 DAYS TILL TRANSFORMERS THE MOVIE!!!

Seen it, just not on the big screen

.

i hate you, i hate you, i hate you.

my mate watched it on the big screen 2 nights ago, he knows people at a cinema.....i used too

have to wait i guess.

[ric325i]

oh yes its started!

good man

and once again spadge is the passer of the m30 parts.....thats where i got my 535i all those months ago.

but i think i had further to go to get my m30 - difference is the big lump was still in the big 5.

i hope you have a big van for the big 6

If he still has it next weekend then it will indeed have started... could go see Jon in Loughborough at the same time...

Not got a van...

... got a pickup though!

i didnt notice the bbs at first!

its only fair you take out the bmw centre caps though

[FormerMember]

Sureley the M30 engine is only 26KILOS heavier than the M20 one.?

M30 212kg, M20 171kg so it's ~40kg heavier + bigger gearbox etc..
In cabrio it's easily balanced by relocating battery to trunk.

Not according to these figures M20 - Straight 6 cylinder SOHC 12V. Baby Six. 1977-1992. 117kg 258lbs
Used in E21 320, E21 320i/6, E28, E30, E34, E21/30 323i, E30 325e and E28 528e
2.0i (129bhp), 2.3i (143bhp), 2.5i (170bhp), 2.7e (125bhp)

M30 - Straight 6 cylinder SOHC 12V. Big Six. 1973-1993. 143kg 315lbs
Used in E12 525/528, E28 525i, E23 725i, 2800CS, E28 528i, E23 728i, 3.0CS/i/L, 3.0Si, E12 530i, E23 730i, 3.3Li, 633, 732i, 733i, 535i, 635i,

I found my figures here: http://www.behindmatrix.com/e30/fotost/ ... f00500.htm
I'd think those are measured with everything bolted on.

And to the topic:
ziggy: CHECK the upper oil-pipe (in the cylinderhead) tightness and clean it. It's most common thing to go wrong with M30.

[Andy335Touring]

Add E34 down pipes to your list.

E32 no good?

& where abouts do they come out on an E30?

Should be OK in theory so long as they come from the same age as the engine so the manifold fixing should be the same, carn't be 100% sure though due to using E34 stuff on mine.

With my M3 exhaust the down pipes end about 6" back from the lolly pop/on the underside of the foot well.

[Ziggy]

Cheers mate

Can't see it being too difficult to get hold of some, even if I get an engine from an E32 & those ones don't work out.

[Ziggy]

Well that's the engine sorted out... Collecting it & hopefully t'other bits from Jon, next weekend

So just the prop, engine mounts & service bits to sort, & I'm there?! Didn't take long to get this far... wonder how long it'll take to get it in the car

I assume the e30.de mounts use some kind of rubber mount too? If so, are they just the standard E30 ones?

[Andy335Touring]

I assume the e30.de mounts use some kind of rubber mount too? If so, are they just the standard E30 ones?

Yeah, just normal M20 rubber mounts

[Ziggy]

Shplendid Cheers!
Going to have to resist starting this before Gaydon...

[Andy335Touring]

Get all your parts ready then get stuck in, i didn't and the conversion took ages but the information wasn't so good back then, Toby and me hooked up towards the end of our swaps so we could share some info with each other.

[SPADGE]

Ziggy the e32 downpipes look identical to the e34 items to me

[gareth]

agreed. i'm running E32 dowpipes with no probs.

if you're going to use a M3 exhaust, i have the mating flange drawn up if you want a copy. cut the downpipes and weldd the flange on, then it's just a bolt-on job every time you need to work on the thing.

[Toby_Unna]

if you want a copy. cut the downpipes and weldd the flange on, then it's just a bolt-on job every time you need to work on the thing.

...which is a damn sight easier than removing the downpipes every time because you thought you'd 'save time' by welding them straight to the rest of the exhaust

needless to say the turbo system has lots of joins!

[gareth]

my thoughts exactly!

i can't see how the exhaust could be removed if the downpipes were welded on!!!

[Toby_Unna]

oh it comes off, believe me

my exhaust was welded as one piece, i was very impatient once i had a prop and therefore the potential to drive it!