SuperCharging an M42-Opinions? Whats needed?

Discuss general engine, turbo and supercharger conversions in this section

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hoshy
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Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:24 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:Right, lets say that we're talking about the M45 for an M30 (that's confusing!)

The M30 displaces 3.5 litres?

Let's also take 6000rpm as being our crank speed.

So, at 6000rpm, the M30 consumes this amount of air (based on a few assumptions):

((3.5x6000)/2)*.85) which is the ((displacementxcrank speed)/2)*VE)

= 8925 litres/min

The divided by 2 is there as each cylinder only inhales every other crank revolution, and VE is the volumetric efficiency, which I've made up as being 85% for the sake of arguement)

From the graph above, we can see that the M45 can shift about 320 cubic feet of air / min at 14000rpm.

Now one cubic foot of air = 28.316846592 litres.

So at 14000rpm, it cam move 9061.39090944 litres of air / min.

Sounds good so far!

However, if we want to calculate the boosted air flow required, we need to select a boost pressure so lets take the 9psi suggested above.

So, to work this out, we first need to calculate the pressure ratio which is:

(Absolute pressure/atmos pressure)=PR

Absolute pressure is atmos+boost pressure so we have:

((14.7+9)/14.7)=1.61

Which essentially means that our engine will be able to consume about 61% more air at 9psi than it would if it were running normally aspirated.

If we compare the figures again, we see that the engine under 9psi will now want this much air:

8925*1.61=14369.25 litres / min
whereas the most the M45 can supply is 9061 litres / min

Quite a defeceit not quite so great :(
Do you know how you estimate bhp from desibred boost pressure ?

I fancy playing with a few numbers this afternoon.
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Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:45 pm

Now there's a loaded question.

You can make a reasonable guess on your power output as long as you don't lower the compression ratio with the following equation:

You need to work out the pressure ratio which is calculated:

(atmos pressure+boost pressure)/atmos pressure=Pressure ratio.

Now atmospheric pressure is, give or take, 1bar or 14.7psi so to calculate the gain of say the 6psi I'm planning to run, we get:

(14.7+6)/14.7=1.41

This assumes that all things being equal, the engine will now consume 1.41 times the amount of air under 6psi than it would have done if it were normally aspirated.

So I should be hoping to see 171+1.41=241bhp although I'm secretly hoping for a bit more courtesy of TBs and the engine management :)

You do need to know the original power output of the engine for this to serve as a guide though, so if you knock a point off of the compression ratio, you'll knock shedloads out of the power which would then have to be built up with boost again.
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Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:32 pm

Also not forgetting to subtract the power used to actually turn the supercharger, don't apply to turbos although you will get a power drop as a result of backpressure if I understand it correctly.

TB's theory is sound, however I am pretty sure its not that accurate, no offense intended ofc:)

Someone must know roughly how much gain you get from just adding air..the problem is that most people change loads of stuff when the jump to FI, making it impossible to say how much is a result of the extra fuel/air mixture being burnt. Anyone know any Uni Mechanical Eng Professors? :)

*sigh*

build it and dyno it seems like the only option.
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hoshy
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:29 am

I'm a mega newbie to cars and FI but as I understand it you're correct.

afaik the one thing a supercharger has over a turbo is the low end power though. Personally I'd rather have that than a top end surge. It gives you more range for gear changes esp. with a standard 318i gearbox which has the flatest 3rd gear ever.

turbo-brown, cheers for that.

Ahh shit I'm drunk so I'm not gonna write anymore. tomorrow I can say what I mean.
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hoshy
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:53 am

wow, that's not the worst pwp I've ever made.

post when pissed, that is. I'm feeling it today though.. :cry:

turbo-brown, thanks again. Any idea where to look for info on the drag the super is likely to add?

Ashley
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:37 pm

Yeah if you do a search on Eaton superchargers their site's quite informative. Think I posted the graphs on the previous page too :)
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hoshy
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:27 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:Yeah if you do a search on Eaton superchargers their site's quite informative. Think I posted the graphs on the previous page too :)
Cool. I saw some of the graphs. will take another look. chrs
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:08 pm

davetouring wrote:Good lad good lad!

Will be a giggle.

Gonna make notes this time, and do a longer trip next time.

Petrol on the way is the most expensive part, so the longer you stay, the more worthwhile it is.

:D
what about petrol on the way back..
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Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:26 am

bingo. :) misson sucsessfull.

the great blag has started :)
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Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:28 am

Karan wrote:
davetouring wrote:Good lad good lad!

Will be a giggle.

Gonna make notes this time, and do a longer trip next time.

Petrol on the way is the most expensive part, so the longer you stay, the more worthwhile it is.

:D
what about petrol on the way back..
I was planning on crashing and getting the train back! :? :D
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Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:57 pm

bingo. Smile misson sucsessfull.

the great blag has started Smile


Sounds Promising! i've pm'd you my addy so let me know postage and stuff!

Wicked......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Sun May 01, 2005 11:24 pm

Yes mate also pmed you my details and the request for one,

thanks

andrew
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hoshy
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Sun May 01, 2005 11:49 pm

frosted mate, you should have my details. let me know if not...

You the man ;-)
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frosted
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Tue May 03, 2005 8:53 am

right, they have been started to be put aside. im going to wait till there is a few becuase i want to send of a batch in one go . if it ends up that there are more people than chargers then ill workout some system of distributing them fairly. although obvasly the first few plp who have been following the thread have first dibs.

regards,


frosted
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Tue May 03, 2005 9:40 am

frosted wrote:right, they have been started to be put aside. im going to wait till there is a few becuase i want to send of a batch in one go . if it ends up that there are more people than chargers then ill workout some system of distributing them fairly. although obvasly the first few plp who have been following the thread have first dibs.

regards,


frosted
u certainly know how to cheer a bloke up at work :D :cool: u should still have my PM....
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hoshy
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Tue May 03, 2005 10:03 am

320Touring wrote:
frosted wrote:right, they have been started to be put aside. im going to wait till there is a few becuase i want to send of a batch in one go . if it ends up that there are more people than chargers then ill workout some system of distributing them fairly. although obvasly the first few plp who have been following the thread have first dibs.

regards,


frosted
u certainly know how to cheer a bloke up at work :D :cool: u should still have my PM....
seconded! 8)
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frosted
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Wed May 04, 2005 11:56 am

ive got eveyones details. keeping a list.

this is going to be fun to organise 8O

grin. all good.

im getting severly PISSED looking at cars.

looked at a sport 2day. 3200. piece of SH*T.

sigh,
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Wed May 04, 2005 12:01 pm

keep your chin up dude-when you find the right car it'll all be worth it!!

fingers crossed that the next one you see is 'the one' :D
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frosted
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Wed May 04, 2005 12:12 pm

problem is being in cornwall its unlikley.

i think i have see 1/2 sports in the area in the last 5 months!!!!!!!

i would go an get teh m3 thats sat at bexley for 6k but i dont think it would be to good as a daily drive.

also clients would have some interesting comments :)
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Wed May 04, 2005 12:27 pm

Where abouts in Cornwall are you Frosted?

Near Newquay arent you?

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Wed May 04, 2005 12:30 pm

not too far away. nearer truro mate
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Wed May 11, 2005 11:15 am

just an update. its still on. currently 3 stored :)
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Wed May 11, 2005 11:23 am

wahooo wahooooooooooo !!
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Wed May 11, 2005 1:50 pm

lovvin it mate :cool: -keep up the good work :thumb:
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Wed May 11, 2005 2:00 pm

cheers bud! looking forward to it!

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hoshy
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Wed May 11, 2005 3:10 pm

niceone mr frosted :)
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Wed May 11, 2005 3:55 pm

if any chargers still available, i'l be up for one.
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Fri May 13, 2005 3:24 am

Well i have been looking for ages on the web trying to find any info on putting the M45 supercharger onto an M20 engine and finally came across this thread. !

My main thoughts about installing this is which way does the supercharger rotate? and more to the point does the M20 engine rotate the same way, i have the feeling it wont work quite as well if its sucking air out of the engine!

Anyway, I found some nice pics of this supercharger installed on a motorbike!!

http://hogsden.dyndns.org/~jsavola/ahdin/index.html

Also are there any more chargers availble?
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Fri May 13, 2005 9:54 pm

i presume the eaton chargers all turn the same way i know mine did its an m90http://www.lentec.co.uk
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Fri May 13, 2005 10:13 pm

What about the ICV and brake booster vacume? how would we work round those?

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Sat May 14, 2005 12:21 am

think the ICV should work fine as it is :)

The servo vacuum:

When on overrun and idle, you'll have vacuum in the system. If you install a one way valve in the servo line, the servo will store the vacuum and operate as normal.

Servos have a vacuum reserve as standard so it's not asking it to do anything it wsn't designed to, think about it as you can pump the pedal with servo assistance (with the engine off) a good 2 or 3 times :)

EDIT> should add that when the throttle's shut, there'll be a pretty substantial vacuum between the engine and the throttle plate and it's here that the line to the servo's connected.
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Sat May 14, 2005 8:12 am

should probly mention your gonna need a large bypass or recirculating bov!
i had a hell of a time with boost spikes when changing gear!
every time i shut the throttle after giving it some right foot POP goes the boost pipes.

i got round this by wiring the electromagnetic clutch that comes as standard on the mercs to switch off just before the throttle closes.

also has the advantage of helping it idle.

i dumped the original ICV as i had the early l-jet (with dizzy!) that didnt come with an electric one anyway and used a heater matrix adjuster from a volvo 340 and a choke cable prob not the best way but it worked great for me!
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Sat May 14, 2005 10:45 am

cheers for the pics lemtec. I can see I'm gonna have to do more work than I originally thought. I don't think my m40 throttle body is connected to the servo but I'll have to check.

can I just get the overrun issue clear in my head: changing gear the butterfly is closed but engine is still at quite high revs (getting higher if changing down) so we need to keep that pressure from the charger from doing nasty things like blowing pipes apart. correct?

I guess also that the butterfly mechanism is designed to cope with high pressures when closed, such as generated by the engine vacuum so that the butterfly itself wont be the weak point on overrun?

Thanks.
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Sat May 14, 2005 10:51 am

what about a dump valve system? it will vent the air on overrun?

What about the cam cover vent?

Andrew
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Sat May 14, 2005 3:59 pm

Its more like a bypass than a dump valve i used a modified icv from unknown car and wired it so when the s/c is off the valve is open when on it closes.

The camcover vent runs to a diy! oil separator (made from scouring pads and few bits of stainless pipe) :wink: then to atmos!

I think the merc the charger came off had a bypass going back to the filter box. it was an electronic butterfly valve mesuring about 1 1/4".

The newer eatons had this built in!

Hoshy that sounds about right to me! but then im no expert!!

lennie
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