e30's vs civics

[kam-325i]

What about MotorBike engines.......Respectable Bhp from small cc, but very little torque..........

[nzracer]

and on topic as vtec came from motorbikes lol

[oakey]

it seems to me that the amount of torque needed to move a car quickly largely depends on the weight of the car.
Fast heavy cars have alot of torque
Fast light cars have far less.
On far ends of the scale you have a motorbike with say- 50ftlb and 150hp- it doesnt need the torque as its light
and a monster truck with 1000ftlb and 800hp- needs the torque as its heavy
The mondeo and civic stats are a good example
mondeo alot heavier but with similar bhp but loads more torque
civic alot lighter but with far less torque. yet both cars have similar top speed and 0-60

think of torque as pushing and hp as pulling??
torque is what shoves you out of corners and means you can accelerate well at low revs but wont necessarily affect straight line speed.

Just my thoughts-i could be completely wrong

feel free to correct me

[nzracer]

that sounds like youve hit the nail on the head mate!

[kam-325i]

Its always done my head in.......

Torque is a meaurment of rotaitional force about a moment.

Bhp, I think, is the force need'd to move the car as a whole, as torque,again, is a rotational force, not lineal.....

[Rosc0PColtrane]

What about MotorBike engines.......Respectable Bhp from small cc, but very little torque..........

No weight to pull though. Start talking nm per tonne if you want to involve bikes.

[Rosc0PColtrane]

it seems to me that the amount of torque needed to move a car quickly largely depends on the weight of the car.
Fast heavy cars have alot of torque
Fast light cars have far less.
On far ends of the scale you have a motorbike with say- 50ftlb and 150hp- it doesnt need the torque as its light
and a monster truck with 1000ftlb and 800hp- needs the torque as its heavy
The mondeo and civic stats are a good example
mondeo alot heavier but with similar bhp but loads more torque
civic alot lighter but with far less torque. yet both cars have similar top speed and 0-60

think of torque as pushing and hp as pulling??
torque is what shoves you out of corners and means you can accelerate well at low revs but wont necessarily affect straight line speed.

Just my thoughts-i could be completely wrong

feel free to correct me

Civic Type R weights in at 1300kg's. It's not light!!

[Davenotouring]

I love Civics! I love e30s too. They are totally different cars so you can't really compare. An e30 m3 with similar mods to a Civic my shape will be similar on track. Talking about a 200ish bhp m3.

[oakey]

it seems to me that the amount of torque needed to move a car quickly largely depends on the weight of the car.
Fast heavy cars have alot of torque
Fast light cars have far less.
On far ends of the scale you have a motorbike with say- 50ftlb and 150hp- it doesnt need the torque as its light
and a monster truck with 1000ftlb and 800hp- needs the torque as its heavy
The mondeo and civic stats are a good example
mondeo alot heavier but with similar bhp but loads more torque
civic alot lighter but with far less torque. yet both cars have similar top speed and 0-60

think of torque as pushing and hp as pulling??
torque is what shoves you out of corners and means you can accelerate well at low revs but wont necessarily affect straight line speed.

Just my thoughts-i could be completely wrong

feel free to correct me

Civic Type R weights in at 1300kg's. It's not light!!

never said it was matey

[munky30]

Cant be arsed to read all that.

Type-r's are good cars but you have to rag the nuts off them to have any fun. And they're fwd.

E30's are a completely different car. a 325 is much easier to enjoy imo.

Wouldnt surprise me if a type r beats an e30 325 in a drag though. They're pretty rapid.

Oh and just because I timed it yesterday and want to brag about it, and here's as good a place as any. My 325 engine/316 diff combo will go from 80mph to 120mph (indicated) in just over 8 seconds without dropping out of 5th.

[blingsta]

i demolished a civic type R on a long straight run in my 325 turbo.. ... he tried his best but never even looked like it was gonna catch or gain on me!!!! roughly 10 car lengths behind. and i know he was ragging it coz he was my mate.

[Jhonno]

Torque is the output of an engine, how much force it can exert on the crankshaft, bhp is the rate at which it can produce it

you need torque to shift weight, cars with lots of torque tend to be quick in gear, but maybe not that quick on a 0-60 dash say

think about the differences between driving a diesel and a petrol

[BreadBin]

Its horses for courses really. If you like maintaining an aging quirky motor with a tendency to rust and dodgy electrics then E30s are for you.

[Jhonno]

cant agree with the electronics, it doesnt have any really.. Rust tho sadly is a killer

[reggid]

for the non technical inclined in really really general terms torque tells you how it accelerates in the midrange and power tells you how it accelerates the topend.

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Torque is the output of an engine, how much force it can exert on the crankshaft, bhp is the rate at which it can produce it

you need torque to shift weight, cars with lots of torque tend to be quick in gear, but maybe not that quick on a 0-60 dash say

think about the differences between driving a diesel and a petrol

That's what was in the back of my mind.. I drove the sport Astra 150bhp diesel prior to launch. It was fecking rapid. Soo much torque, no need to drop down a gear, just flatten the pedal and it launched!

[maxfield]

Torque is the output of an engine, how much force it can exert on the crankshaft, bhp is the rate at which it can produce it

you need torque to shift weight, cars with lots of torque tend to be quick in gear, but maybe not that quick on a 0-60 dash say

think about the differences between driving a diesel and a petrol

A nice torquey(sp) is cool, my dads old alpina would wheelspin in 2nd at 2k with quater throttle in the dry.

Where as the M3 won't wheelspin in first with out being very violent with the clutch unless it's a rainy day

[maxfield]

Oh yeah we was having a play with a S2000 yesterday.

I was seriously expecting more from it 240 hp 6 gears and 1250kg

Boring person didn't want to play when he realised we was stuck to his bumper

[Steve-E30]

I was seriously expecting more from it 240 hp 6 gears and 1250kg

My old boss had one , Over rated revving piece of shite , He couldnt lose my maestro turbo and I was pushing him

[maxfield]

I was seriously expecting more from it 240 hp 6 gears and 1250kg

My old boss had one , Over rated revving piece of shite , He couldnt lose my maestro turbo and I was pushing him

Definatly!

We was stuck to his bumper at about 6k and 1/2 throttle

[Jhonno]

for the non technical inclined in really really general terms torque tells you how it accelerates in the midrange and power tells you how it accelerates the topend.

you need torque to shift weight, cars with lots of torque tend to be quick in gear, but maybe not that quick on a 0-60 dash say

[Simon13]

torque is how HARD you hit the wall

bhp is how FAST you hit the wall

easy!

[oakey]

torque is how HARD you hit the wall

bhp is how FAST you hit the wall

easy!

nice!

[Rosc0PColtrane]

The fatser you're going, the harder you're going to hit it!

[jonb]

torque is how HARD you hit the wall

bhp is how FAST you hit the wall

easy!

Simon

If 2 cars have the same 170bhp(163 in your case), and one has 210ft/lb"s of da torque and the other 170ft/lb"s(151 in your case). Then the one with more torque will be quicker.

[Eddie25]

Its all about drivebility in my eyes. This debate is never ending, its all about personal preference. Im a big fan of torque. If im on a motorway for example and need to pass a truck i much prefer to breath on the accelerator and woft past it in 5th. Rather than dropping a couple of cogs and waitin for the VTAK to kick in. Hondas are great cars dont get me wrong. I would recomend them to anyone. But thats my personal preference.

[Simon13]

torque is how HARD you hit the wall

bhp is how FAST you hit the wall

easy!

Simon

If 2 cars have the same 170bhp(163 in your case), and one has 210ft/lb"s of da torque and the other 170ft/lb"s(151 in your case). Then the one with more torque will be quicker.

no jon your confused!

both cars A and B have 100bhp yeah? both cars are identical in weight etc

So they hit the wall both at the same speed, BUT car A has 100lbs of torque and car B has 50lbs.

Which car would cause more damage, or knock down the most bricks ala top gear styleee?

BHP defines your top speed, torque is just nice and gives a good shunt in the back, which we all like
Despite how good modern diesels are they still run out of puff compared to the same sized petrol engine, because their bhp is way below their peak torque outputs. Where as a petrol is always the otherway round.

Heres another Jon! which weighs more a ton of feathers or a ton of lead!

My experience in the cars......me and demlot had our cars on the rollers a while ago, his S14 did 200bhp and 160lbs. My alpina 2.7 did 190bhp and 192lbs. Whilst on a dual carriage way at legal speeds! we dropped into the same gear and went for it. Now you would think the 2.7 would have the grunt to pull on it having an extra 32lbs alot further down the rev range. Nope Chibsters pulled away from me and the extra bhp showed.

Torque is good for low speed and overtaking, but bhp comes into play at the high rpms and speeds.

I'm sure someone will shoot me down now!

[munky30]

The amount of torque wouldnt make any difference how many bricks it knocked down. The weight of the car would. The heavier car would knock down more.

I'm sure there's an equation for it... something like weight x momentum = force.

Unless they both weighed the same. In that case, assuming the driver had stopped accelerating before impact, they would knockj down the same amount... if they were still accelerating then maybe the one with more torque would knock down more.. but I doubt it. You'd need a hell of a lot of torque to keep a car moving after that kind of impact.

bhp and torque would have nothing to do with it in that instance.

I agree with the rest. In laymans terms, cars with high torque figures are better at overtaking, cars with high bhp are better for top end. My old mazda topped out at 140mph, it had 160bhp and 166lbs. My mates diesel vectra had 120bhp and 200lbs, it would spank the mazda from 60-100 but mine would beat his on 0-60.

Though to be honest, they mean nothing on their own, a car with no torque could have all the bhp in the world and it would be slow as sh*t, and vice versa.

[reggid]

for knocking down walls its kinetic energy i.e. mass and velocity^2 nothing to do with torque

Its simple if you have cars of similar mass and inertia it comes down to which car makes the most power at a particular instant, so in effect all that is important is the power curve and gearing (assuming mass drag etc equal) so crank torque is not neccesary becasue you can make up for with revs and gearing.

You only need crank torque if you want performance when at low to mid rpms which aint a bad thing on the street. Racing engines are made to make the most power possible in the operating range used during a particlar event.

[northloop]

I was seriously expecting more from it 240 hp 6 gears and 1250kg

My old boss had one , Over rated revving piece of shite , He couldnt lose my maestro turbo and I was pushing him

Do you seriously believe that the S2000 which has one of the best engines made in a long time is an over revving piece of shite?

Comedy comment

[BreadBin]

Do you seriously believe that the S2000 which has one of the best engines made in a long time is an over revving piece of shite?

Comedy comment

Most 'Zoners seem to inhabit their own personal reality where conventional thinking is optional

[pacerpete]

Steve e30 is a hero, imagine putting your hands up to having owned a maestro turbo !

[Simon13]

no it wouldn't! both cars are the same wieght, the car with more torque will actually be pushing harder when it hits. Moving the car with more force but no more speed due to the same bhp.

I'm struggling with words here as my polish is better. Um if you could measure how fast you hit a punch bag? You, yourself can decide how much torque you hit the bag with, even though you would hit it at the same speed. Your shoulder being the pivot point in this

[Rosc0PColtrane]

no it wouldn't! both cars are the same wieght, the car with more torque will actually be pushing harder when it hits. Moving the car with more force but no more speed due to the same bhp.

I'm struggling with words here as my polish is better. Um if you could measure how fast you hit a punch bag? You, yourself can decide how much torque you hit the bag with, even though you would hit it at the same speed. Your shoulder being the pivot point in this

I understand what you mean by the punch bag. But to control the power of a punch, you effectively pull out. It's a different technique to a full contact punch.

[Simon13]

but in essence you are varying the torque applied as such