Coilovers or Cup Kit for the M3 Touring

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bigpimpin
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Post Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:06 pm

I'm sure similar questions have been asked before but my setup is slightly different.

The car is a 325i Touring fitted with s50b32 m3 evo motor. Its got E30 M3 suspension setup.
The car sits perfectly but feels to heavy for the shocks/springs. It also squats down at the rear which is good for draggin but not so good for the rear tyres rubbing.

So, do I go coilover or a kit like H&R cup or KW's version?

I want the car to sit as it is now. I've been in touch with buster who is using Spax PSX for a 325 with the M3 struts.
Will a coilover kit designed for a 325 touring have the brackets on the strut for the anti roll bar mounts?

:mad:
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Andy325i
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Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:11 am

Have a word will Sal, (Zone shop) he is very knowlegable in these things :)

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Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:53 am

I have spax psx on my 325i,(approx 3000miles) + track days, however IMO i dont think there up to circuits.

Don't get me wrong the kit is fine and great on the road but it just doesn't offer enough adjustments when setting up the car.

Obviously this doesn't matter if your cars just being used on the road.

I'm currently looking to replace them with H&r coilovers

If the coilovers are too expensive, go with the cup kit (like i wish i had)
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:58 pm

go for coilovers mate, ive bought 2 different H&R kits and i dont rate them at all.
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:59 pm

Coilovers adujustable.

My dads gone with H&R coilovers they are awesome and not as harsh as people think.
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:51 pm

maxfield wrote:Coilovers adujustable.

My dads gone with H&R coilovers they are awesome and not as harsh as people think.
i've found them to be too soft.
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:03 pm

nice idea bigpimpin!

you have PM :cool:
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:19 pm

I would first decide what the car is going to be used for. I'd say coilovers are not anygood for road use and pointless as they will wreck your shell with adequate stiffening of the shell eg a welded in roll cage. Which is all fine if it's going to be a track slag

Some squat is good on an E30 and really helps get the power down particulary (sp) in the wet. Cheap 60mm suspension kits are way too stiff on the rear and make an E30 very snappy in anything other than dry conditions.

Again the issue of big wheels rears it's ugly head. I'd recommend H&R cupkit springs either saloon or cabriolet with inverted bilsteins either 45mm or 51's probably 51's would be best for you with the extra weight of the S50.
45's are better for track work but give a harder ride.

But with your lovely BBS splits this might not be suitable as cupkit springs are soft on the rear. This setup is good with Hartges/8j Alpinas and 15bbs as they are right on the money with their offsets so the wheel just tucks up into the arch under heavy acceleration. 16's and 15's are also the best for handling so there is alot of food for thought

m-dtech you are the only person i know who doesn't rate H&R stuff, have you tried it round the ring?! sounds like a G-max kit would be down your street rock hard cheap sh!te
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:25 pm

I'm even more confused now! :mad:

I had kind of decided on non-coilovers as Ian332 etc are not using them.

The car will only be doing about 1000 miles a year and probably all of these on the road.
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Post Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:17 pm

Cup kit is not up to to the job on the front m8. engine is too heavy for them.

Had them on my m30 touring . was an improvement over the standard 325 stuff but not good enough

Cant believe you dont plan on driving this car much after all the effort in puting it together
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Post Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:39 pm

Its not the damping on any of the options that will let you down it will be the off the shelf spring rates that will

Look at Faulkner springs and get the right spring rates and hieght you want and you should be fine

You may have fouling isues with coilovers, as your whels look swider than standard, but will depend on the offset
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Post Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:46 pm

Strange how others are using H&R 6pot springs on these coversions and using them on track and not complaining

The M30 is only 25kgs or so heavier than an M20. The S50 isn't a milion miles away either
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Post Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:04 pm

IMO no good and was a waste of my $$$
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Post Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:57 pm

m-dtech you are the only person i know who doesn't rate H&R stuff, have you tried it round the ring?! sounds like a G-max kit would be down your street rock hard cheap sh!te
no not had any novice laps round "the ring"

I live next to and regualrly use knockhill, and have found that they are no use.

Because something is expensive does not mean it is good. What works for one person does not always work for another. H&R are renowned (sp?) for being too soft !! Tried H&R twice and both times sold on at a loss and went else where.
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Post Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:58 pm

i recon the cup kit shocks are poo, but springs are ok for fast road driving, never used them enough on the track

personaly i'd go with a coilover set up, you'll get the drop just right

FK are available through GSF and the price is reasonable imo, they are not too bad from the feedback i had ( mailnly VW boys )
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Post Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:15 pm

Kos wrote:i recon the cup kit shocks are poo, but springs are ok for fast road driving, never used them enough on the track

personaly i'd go with a coilover set up, you'll get the drop just right

FK are available through GSF and the price is reasonable imo, they are not too bad from the feedback i had ( mailnly VW boys )
i was talking to 320Touring about those, cheap at around £500 for an E30 i might fit these on my m50 track car.
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Post Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:11 am

bigdek wrote:IMO no good and was a waste of my $$$
Unless you can get lb/in spec and free length (which I've never been able to get) than pretty much any aftermarket kit for track use is a waste of £Â£Ã‚£ imo. Even "rock hard cheap shite" G max springs are far too soft on track. I was on a real budget last season and used G max shocks from a kit second hand off ebay on custom springs, had a few top tens so not that sh*te. Everybody drives differently and prefers something different, everybodys car is balanced differently depending on how much stripping out etc has been done. Some people will rave about a set up just because it is so much better than standard, because thats what they are comparing it with.

As Jimmy says, forget about kits, get some springs made up to suit you because thats probably the biggest part of suspension. A cheap or expensive kit means squat, biggest advantage of an expensive kit is that you usually get a couple of stickers that you can slap on the car so everybody knows you have got the expensive kit so must take it all seriously and be a brilliant driver :wink: All IMO obviously ....
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Post Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:30 pm

rallydesign do tenstar springs at whatever rate/length you want.
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Post Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:41 pm

OK, so Coilovers are good and coilovers are not,
And H & R is good and sh*te.

The car is a road car not a track slag so I need a setup that works good on the road.

I just want to bolt something on that better suits the weight of the car as the 4 pot Springs aint up to it.
I aint got a clue about spring rates and let alone calculate the unsprung length of one.

The FK coilovers on GSF are £606 for touring 6 cylinder.
Suspension kits H&R/FK/KW are around £300 - £350
So, anyone with a tourer with these Kits fitted please let me know what ye think. Bigdek, i've noted your opinion on H&R springs. :mad:
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Post Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:32 pm

M-dtech!

i love it "people" reckon H&R are too soft and shite, they seem to have no names, though, i didn't know i was a novice thankyou for pointing it out, i'll remember that.
Just because you live next to a race track doesn't make you a good driver some people just can't drive, your here blowing you own trumpet. I've never commented on this forum ever that i am a driving God or all that sh!t.
You were using springs designed for a 325i right? Surely someone of your knowledge would know better then! :mad: To buy them twice when you already knew you didn't like them? Is very odd also. H&R 35mm saloon springs are £100 when Eibachs are £150 plus?! You do get what you pay for like anything in life, I've yet to come across parts for a car which are expensive and sh!t.

How can springs developed on the ring be no good? This forum is full of people who use these springs on road and track. I don't need to name them either.

I don't to bickering over the PM system it stays on here

As said H&R would be good for your car which stays on the road! Why slag the cupkit, name another suspension kit for an E30 that will give a decent ride on the road and be good enough for most peoples driving abilites on track? They make a good stab at both, coilovers are just one extreme as is a standard setup. It's probably the best middle position.

Does no one remember Geemans' track slag 318iS which had FK coilovers he said they were too soft for track and crap, probably why they are £500

enough from me!
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Post Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:47 pm

bare in mind that the engine is not a standard e30 engine so none of the available e30 kits were designed for this car
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Post Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:41 pm

if i was doing this conversion i would bare this in mind
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Post Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:16 pm

OK I'll try to make sense of everyones comments and just go buy something.
If it works I'll let everyone know, If it doesn't work I'll still let everyone know.

At the end of the day, standard 6 pot springs and shocks would suit the car better than the M3 suff thats on it, so uprated 6 pot should be a marked improvement.

Cheers.
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Post Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:30 am

bigpimpin wrote:OK, so Coilovers are good and coilovers are not,
And H & R is good and sh*te.:
This, and your last post, just about sums it up. :mad: :mad: :D . Because suspension set up and how a car feels to the driver are so subjective, its really just trial and error until you find something that feels right for you. For what its worth, may be worth thinking about some s/h stuff to start off with rather than blow all your budget on a full set up that you find isn't what you were expecting/wanted? Good luck with it.

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Post Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:34 pm

IMHO your needs do not need the expense of a coilover kit

If your dampers are good just get the right sping rates and right spring lengths from a supplier such a faulkner, get them to advise if you dont know whats right, and take the car along so they can see your needs.

I'm sure there are other supliers that can do the same
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Post Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:52 pm

bigpimpin wrote: I want the car to sit as it is now. I've been in touch with buster who is using Spax PSX for a 325 with the M3 struts.
Will a coilover kit designed for a 325 touring have the brackets on the strut for the anti roll bar mounts?

:mad:
i bought a spax psx adjustable kit for my touring and found the ride far to harsh even on the softest setting and also found the rear top mounts disintegrating at an alarming rate(3 times in a year). i binned this kit and went for bilsteins although i also had to experiment with different front springs to get the ideal ride height as you will as well. ive yet to be in a better handling e30 imo although i always keep an open mind winkeye
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Post Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:53 pm

Simon13 wrote:M-dtech!

i love it "people" reckon H&R are too soft and shite, they seem to have no names, though, i didn't know i was a novice thankyou for pointing it out, i'll remember that.
Just because you live next to a race track doesn't make you a good driver some people just can't drive, your here blowing you own trumpet. I've never commented on this forum ever that i am a driving God or all that sh!t.
You were using springs designed for a 325i right? Surely someone of your knowledge would know better then! :mad: To buy them twice when you already knew you didn't like them? Is very odd also. H&R 35mm saloon springs are £100 when Eibachs are £150 plus?! You do get what you pay for like anything in life, I've yet to come across parts for a car which are expensive and sh!t.

How can springs developed on the ring be no good? This forum is full of people who use these springs on road and track. I don't need to name them either.

I don't to bickering over the PM system it stays on here

As said H&R would be good for your car which stays on the road! Why slag the cupkit, name another suspension kit for an E30 that will give a decent ride on the road and be good enough for most peoples driving abilites on track? They make a good stab at both, coilovers are just one extreme as is a standard setup. It's probably the best middle position.

Does no one remember Geemans' track slag 318iS which had FK coilovers he said they were too soft for track and crap, probably why they are £500

enough from me!
Merely going on my experiences with H&R, used 2 different setups with different rollbars.
H&R are possibly a good in between if you want to retain a bit of comfort, and have some handling.
Not what id use on a track.

I have not read anything about FK coilovers other than what i seen in GSF a few weeks ago.

Im not questioning your driving ability, as stated in PM im more than happy to pay for a test session at knockhill and we can go round the track and find out what setup is better.

Im not digging or doubting or trying to slag you in any way, merly posting on an open forum my opinion of a manufacturer, yet you have taken it personaly.?!!

Offer stands, for testing on track and i'll even buy beer if im wrong!

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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:48 pm

bigpimpin wrote: At the end of the day, standard 6 pot springs and shocks would suit the car better than the M3 suff thats on it, so uprated 6 pot should be a marked improvement.
Didnt Alpina use the standard M3 stuff on the B6S? They just used the front springs from the AirCon equipped M3s, and Im guessing that still handled pretty well.
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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:19 pm

jmc330i wrote:
bigpimpin wrote: At the end of the day, standard 6 pot springs and shocks would suit the car better than the M3 suff thats on it, so uprated 6 pot should be a marked improvement.
Didnt Alpina use the standard M3 stuff on the B6S? They just used the front springs from the AirCon equipped M3s, and Im guessing that still handled pretty well.
Yup this is the setup they used..

Andy335Touring is using spax m3 springs in his m30 touring..
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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:25 pm

Hi,

On the suspension the solution is quite simple.

First decide what the car is for, road or track.
If its a track car, as there is no ideal compromise that works well
for both, then you will be looking at much stiffer damper / spring
rates than for road use and vice versa.

As the car runs around 1200 Kg with a biasis to the front on weight
distribution, then when considering the spring rates, the added front
weight needs to be factored in.

If its for Road only, then Coil Overs make for a harsh ride on normal
uk roads, and the car will skip over the bumps as opposed ride over them,
and when this happens the overall handling will suffer.

As your running M3 running gear, a very good compormise, that would be
available second hand would be a E30 M3 Grp N rated front and rear
springs, not a coilover set up, but much firmer than standard.
This would in part compensate a bit for the extra front engine weight,
but does not give the ability to adjust ride height to much.

You could then match some adjustable Bilstiens or Koni dampers to
your spring rates.

If the car is for Track, then Coilover would be better, and there is a lot
of choice pending your requirements and wallet size.

Not many understand how to set up full suspension, so double adjust
would be as far as you would need to go or ever use on Coilovers.

I have not read many replies on the amount of Bump, percentage of
compression in relation to free travel, spring rates of 'X' nm and damper
rates of 'X' nm, mechanical grip, oversized piston, amount of toe and camber and so on, which is an indication
that to date nobody is experinced enough to advise you.

You need to go back to square one, you need to determine your ride
height, the size of wheel and tyre, the use for the car, and then
start from there.

As I said, Grp N E30 M3 would be a good starting point,
so long as your wheels and tyres do not exceed the arch tolerances,
as it will fit your existing suspension set up, and then work
from there.

Regards,

The Gorilla.
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Post Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:42 pm

GermanGorilla wrote:
As the car runs around 1200 Kg with a biasis to the front on weight
distribution, then when considering the spring rates, the added front
weight needs to be factored in.
It will be around 1300kgs(mine was), i must get around to getting it on some corner weight scales rather than a weigh bridge.