2.7 Vs the Hot Hatches

[Demlotcrew]

i think he means in "certain situations" ie. if youve got a m3 and a 2.7 side by side at 40mph in 4th gear (for example) the 2.7 should pull better than the m3.

Never in a million years, i did a test just like this with an Alpina and the M3 pulls in any gear up hill at any engine speed faster than a proper 2.7.

Andrew

[Davenotouring]

A Clio 182 and a CTR are about even, if the CTR is in VTEC all the time, it would slightly have the legs IMO. Depends what spec 2.7 you're talking about. There wasn't much between my Civic and Karans 2.7 (which was a decent one) when mine was 1.6.

I'm looking forward to having a play with Reverend Ozwaldo in my Civic once it's been mapped. We've both just gained 200cc.

[Falkster]

I think, as some have already said, through the twisties you could stay ahead but on a mainly straight road you wont have a chance. Just look at the weight they Civic and Clio are carrying. The Focus ST170 would be well behind during the twisties and on the straight.....the car doesnt perform like the power may suggest (a friend has one). The 330ci would eat it aswell! My ex-wife used to have a 328 coupe sport and I was suprised how well that went....not all noise and no go.

[oguz327]

A Clio 182 and a CTR are about even, if the CTR is in VTEC all the time, it would slightly have the legs IMO. Depends what spec 2.7 you're talking about. There wasn't much between my Civic and Karans 2.7 (which was a decent one) when mine was 1.6.

I'm looking forward to having a play with Reverend Ozwaldo in my Civic once it's been mapped. We've both just gained 200cc.

Bring it on Dave, but i am under no illusions that i will be able to beat you, if the 1.6 was as quick as Karans, your 1.8 will kill my 2.7.

Then again, your civic is far from standard and you have mucho better driving skills than me, still ill have a shot at the title.

Really looking forward to the ring trip when i can put my 2.7 to the test and see what sort of metal i can beat or keep up with, should be interesting. The extra torque should help on the hilly sections no end.

[Andyboy]

A Clio 182 and a CTR are about even, if the CTR is in VTEC all the time, it would slightly have the legs IMO. Depends what spec 2.7 you're talking about. There wasn't much between my Civic and Karans 2.7 (which was a decent one) when mine was 1.6.

I'm looking forward to having a play with Reverend Ozwaldo in my Civic once it's been mapped. We've both just gained 200cc.

You've forgotten the Clio Williams - what a weapon that was! Or a Peugeot 405 Mi16 for £500...............

[Falkster]

A Clio 182 and a CTR are about even, if the CTR is in VTEC all the time, it would slightly have the legs IMO. Depends what spec 2.7 you're talking about. There wasn't much between my Civic and Karans 2.7 (which was a decent one) when mine was 1.6.

I'm looking forward to having a play with Reverend Ozwaldo in my Civic once it's been mapped. We've both just gained 200cc.

You've forgotten the Clio Williams - what a weapon that was! Or a Peugeot 405 Mi16 for £500...............

I had a Clio Williams 1 and TBH I was hugely dissapointed with the performance. If you think the standard one was 137bhp and the Williams was only 150bhp with no weight savings! Its a far cry from the likes of the Clio 197 of today!

An Mi16 in a 205 would be fun though

[march109]

A Clio 182 and a CTR are about even, if the CTR is in VTEC all the time, it would slightly have the legs IMO. Depends what spec 2.7 you're talking about. There wasn't much between my Civic and Karans 2.7 (which was a decent one) when mine was 1.6.

I'm looking forward to having a play with Reverend Ozwaldo in my Civic once it's been mapped. We've both just gained 200cc.

You've forgotten the Clio Williams - what a weapon that was! Or a Peugeot 405 Mi16 for £500...............

I had a Clio Williams 1 and TBH I was hugely dissapointed with the performance. If you think the standard one was 137bhp and the Williams was only 150bhp with no weight savings! Its a far cry from the likes of the Clio 197 of today!

An Mi16 in a 205 would be fun though

I got a mate who for the right £Â£Ã‚£ will build one for you to any spec, in fact hes really good at making a french turds fly withought the need for laxatives. Still trying to tell him German is the only way to go (comapred to french poo).

[Falkster]

But the point was that you would expect it to be pretty damn good when you bought it.

They had the receipt for a great car but it just didnt happen

[jonb]

But the point was that you would expect it to be pretty damn good when you bought it.

They had the receipt for a great car but it just didnt happen

???

Thats strange? As all the press reviews said that it was an excellent car in all areas of performance. Some said it was better than the 205 gti even.

[Andyboy]

I had a Clio Williams 1 and TBH I was hugely dissapointed with the performance. If you think the standard one was 137bhp and the Williams was only 150bhp with no weight savings! Its a far cry from the likes of the Clio 197 of today!

Must have been something wrong with it. They were quicker than the 16v Astra which was something and I raced one in my 1800 Golf GTi Mark 1 - the Clio shat on me very comprehensively and there was no way in hell I could stay with it.
The French make utterly crap medium-big cars but very good small ones. The 106 Rallye was a superb little thing, the original Cooper S reborn.

[Falkster]

But you think about back in the day the Clio was the same bhp as the Astra and as the Astra was shite round corners and heavier it would whoop its arse. The Mk1 Golf was pretty damn good at most things but mid range poke it was not....what did it kick out??? 115bhp??

If you think about the initial discussion, someone was trying to compare a Williams against a Clio 182 and the like!!

[Andyboy]

But is the 182 15 years better?? 32 bhp more but I bet it's a lot heavier. The Golf had very good midrange - the VW motor was very torquey - a good all rounder if not the ultimate.

Tell you what - get a really healthy Williams 1, 2 or 3 and pit it against a 182 along the A82 from Glasgow to Fort William. You reckon the newer car would get there much (if any) faster? I'm not so sure. Chuck in a Cooper S and an old 1.9 Pug as well.

[Jhonno]

Astra's arent that bad round corners, had a few inc GTE/GSi XE engine is excellent, uses piss all fuel, but goes like a rocket

[Andyboy]

Oh come on!!!! Those Mark 2 Ashtrays were bloody terrible! They were the beginning of the end for Vauxhall imo. The Mark 1 GTE was a great car as were the Chevettes (fantastic handling - 100 times better than the basic Escort) but from there on they went down the pan. The Mark 3 Astra was so bad you'd think it had 10 psi in the tyres. As for the Vectra.................garbage.


Back in the eigties we (the old AmD) used to race an 8v GTE in the old Slick 50 Series. It was a nightmare trying to get power and none of the regular cams would work. Then we got Piper to grind something utterly stupid - and By Christ it worked. 160 bhp from a 1.8 8v on standard L Jet, useless idle and no low down power at all - but did it go. The problem was trying to keep it below 7500 rpm at which point the lifters would pump up. The Astra could be made to handle very well with only minor mods which says a lot for GM's chassis 'engineers'. This Astra did so well (it beat the fastest Golf) VW approached AmD to run a 16v Golf in the Firestone Saloon Car Championship which was basically Group N.

Only 3 late 80's Vauxhalls are worth a wank - Carlton GSi 3000, the 88-94 Senator and the Omega. I will, one day, own an F plate 'egg crate grille' Senator 3.0 Auto just for the Council factor - i love 'em! Great looking car.

[snoops]

and theres the lotus carlton 2.7 twinturbo

[Ziggy]

88-94 Senator

I thought it was just me! Cue the music from the Bill...

[E30Mark]

The French make utterly crap medium-big cars but very good small ones. The 106 Rallye was a superb little thing, the original Cooper S reborn.

You calling my Citroen ZX good?

[OllieB]

I've got a standard '55 plate CTR, and off the line there is simply no traction at all. Once you are underway, from about 30 onwards I reckon you could count on one hand the number of E30's which would even be in sniffing distance on a straight line charge. You have to drive the Type R's like you have stolen it, AND your pubic wig is on fire. If you change up a fraction too early then you are not in the right range for the next gear, so you need to be just about to rattle off the limiter before you think about changing.

[reggid]

I've got a standard '55 plate CTR, and off the line there is simply no traction at all. Once you are underway, from about 30 onwards I reckon you could count on one hand the number of E30's which would even be in sniffing distance on a straight line charge. You have to drive the Type R's like you have stolen it, AND your pubic wig is on fire. If you change up a fraction too early then you are not in the right range for the next gear, so you need to be just about to rattle off the limiter before you think about changing.

you must be mutated (i.e. have many fingers) as there are heaps of e30 on this forum that will beat a stock CTR, unless i am missing something, isn't a CTR a 200hp 142lbft car weighing approx the same weight as a e30?

I'd be more worried about a Mazda 3 MPS 2.3T ~260hp 280lbft torque monster than any honda currently FS.

[forty]

I could'nt really care less whose is faster, I went from a phase 3 gti-6 back to an e30 because its so much cooler to drive around in, I like people looking at the car-its a talking point....That NEVER happened in my poojoe.

Anyway, I think this new breed of 200hp Hot hatches would walk on a standard 325/327
If I can remember the CTR has I-Vtec which enabled 95% of torque available from 3000rpm right up to the red line? I maybe wrong but I remeber something about it
Our old e30's only make peak torque & bhp at one point in the rev range so unless like has been said before you keep it on the boil a modern hot hatch willl leave you behind.

I had a traffic light grand prix with ont off the lights in my 190bhp Series 1 Rs Turbo and she () blew me away...

[oakey]

I've got a standard '55 plate CTR, and off the line there is simply no traction at all. Once you are underway, from about 30 onwards I reckon you could count on one hand the number of E30's which would even be in sniffing distance on a straight line charge. You have to drive the Type R's like you have stolen it, AND your pubic wig is on fire. If you change up a fraction too early then you are not in the right range for the next gear, so you need to be just about to rattle off the limiter before you think about changing.

you must be mutated (i.e. have many fingers) as there are heaps of e30 on this forum that will beat a stock CTR, unless i am missing something, isn't a CTR a 200hp 142lbft car weighing approx the same weight as a e30?

I'd be more worried about a Mazda 3 MPS 2.3T ~260hp 280lbft torque monster than any honda currently FS.

well said.
+almost any of the 335i's on here would beat a ctr.

[OllieB]

I don't reckon. I was talking about standard E30's anyway really, and a CTR would match an E30 M3 round a track, as well as in a straight line, while I doubt you could say the same about a reasonably unfettled 335i. Its old tech you see, it just doesn't cut it anymore. Has anyone posted any 0-60 times- 1/4 mile times in a 335i? Bet you a standard CTR would beat a 335i in pretty much every race situation. By the way, I'm not trying to start an argument/fight, before everyone who is blinded by their passion for old beemers starts kicking off, just merely arguing a point. When I first drove the CTR I was absolutely astonished at just how fast and capable it is for a 200bhp FWD hatch, as everyone who I have taken out in it has been.

[march109]

Any car modern or not is exceptionaly reasonable if its around 200bhp + 200lbft,

for me thats the magic figure that puts them ahead of small hatches and family runabouts in terms of fun.

[bigun]

lets face it ctr's am rubbish jap crap my mates got a 2.7 schrick cam in it chip its in turd gear when it gets goin other mate 300 bhp scooby and the 2.7 does him in third everytime

[OllieB]

lets face it ctr's am rubbish jap crap my mates got a 2.7 schrick cam in it chip its in turd gear when it gets goin other mate 300 bhp scooby and the 2.7 does him in third everytime

Sorry, you are going to have to clarify some of that for me. So,

1)-CTR's am rubbish
(They are rubbish? If so why?)

2)-got a 2.7 schrick cam in it chip its in turd gear
(No idea here, turd gear? As for beating a 300bhp impreza turbo I personally find that very hard to believe.)

[Simon13]

And with regards to the E30 M3 well I have the joy to drive one aswell and in certain situations the 2.7 would murder it (all the torque) but then again in other areas the M3 is far superior..

I couldn't see a good 2.7 'murduring' a 215 M3.

I know the 2.7 has alot of torque but when the M3 hits 4k revs it really does come alive.

Anyone got a 200hp 2.7 and a 215 M3 ???

yes me and Demlot and the power difference was similar as stated the M3 was only a car length if that in front upto 125 odd mph, my pina was down on power though!

A problem with big torque 2.7's is getting the power down, especially in the wet you really have to feed the throttle in or the back will just brake out if your too aggressive. In an S14 car you just plant your foot and go

[Simon13]

Sorry Ollie but an E30 M3 can take a CTR on track even if it is 20 years old. It's got the same power and that sublime chassis that even a hothatch which is 20 years newer CTR can't beat.

A wanker on my road drives a CTR, he's one of those types who drives 100mph then hammers on the brakes for the speed humps on my road, he is a total retard, as is the bloke he rents with who happens to drive a wanky cabby Audi TT 225bhp which i molested once in my alpina when i went for a spin with after i had pulled the whole interior out and left the drivers seat in. He couldn't lose me on the m-way!

He also does the speed hump trick too!

[oakey]

lets face it ctr's am rubbish jap crap my mates got a 2.7 schrick cam in it chip its in turd gear when it gets goin other mate 300 bhp scooby and the 2.7 does him in third everytime

Sorry, you are going to have to clarify some of that for me. So,

1)-CTR's am rubbish
(They are rubbish? If so why?)

2)-got a 2.7 schrick cam in it chip its in turd gear
(No idea here, turd gear? As for beating a 300bhp impreza turbo I personally find that very hard to believe.)

a 2.7 will never beat a decent impreza. believe me ive tried many times. i once had a go against one from the lights in the wet...... that was embarrassing

[oakey]

especially not in turd!

[oguz327]

A good 2.7 in the wet is a fucking nightmare to launch quickly, just cant get the power down.

Andrew's been in my car and recons its as quick as his M3 engined E30 if not quicker and its barely run in.
On the twisty stuff no doubt it would be a different matter.

When i had my 2.5 engine in i had a go with a newish v tech civic and he beat me by a fair bit, wouldn't mind having a go again, recon it would be a lot closer now, ill keep ya all posted

[OllieB]

[quote="oguz327"]A good 2.7 in the wet is a ******* nightmare to launch quickly, just cant get the power down.

Same as the civic, 1st gear is just unusable if you are going for it, better of just lunching the clutch in 2nd

[Demlotcrew]

Andrew's been in my car and recons its as quick as his M3 engined E30 if not quicker and its barely run in.
On the twisty stuff no doubt it would be a different matter.

Oz you need to remember that your car is totally stripped out and that counts for alot!

There is No doubt its quick, the car just seems to accelerate really well with a very good mid range!

Come summer time we will need to have a little play again.

Andrew

[oguz327]

Andrew's been in my car and recons its as quick as his M3 engined E30 if not quicker and its barely run in.
On the twisty stuff no doubt it would be a different matter.

Oz you need to remember that your car is totally stripped out and that counts for alot!

There is No doubt its quick, the car just seems to accelerate really well with a very good mid range!

Come summer time we will need to have a little play again.

Andrew

Deffo mate, we will have to hook up a track day or something, doubt there will be much in it in a straight line either way.

[Foomanchu]

Wow this is great a topic I started and it is really getting people thinking a bit... I feel sort of proud I guess...

I only had this thought because I had had some small but fun duels now if I choose to get involved I would hope that the other dude is going to give his all as well... just as I do I, so although I put all I have into it they may not.
So in that instance I Did make a Preface lift CTR move out of my way at a silly speed and I did stay with a 330 ci Cab until nearly twice the limit and the Clio 182 could not keep up with me when the hammer went down 80-130 now that could be I'm a better driver who has more confidence in my ability and car or that I'm a bit dim and I don't have much respect for my life or my car as nobody knows me here I will leave that judement between me and my shrink.....

No seriously though it was a bit of fun I won game over.
My 2.7 is a whole lot quicker than it was as a 2.5 which wasn't that slow so any dudes in Type R STI's EVO's you probably are quicker but you don't look as cool in your baseball cap and Burberry....

[reggid]

IAnyway, I think this new breed of 200hp Hot hatches would walk on a standard 325/327
If I can remember the CTR has I-Vtec which enabled 95% of torque available from 3000rpm right up to the red line? I maybe wrong but I remeber something about it
Our old e30's only make peak torque & bhp at one point in the rev range so unless like has been said before you keep it on the boil a modern hot hatch willl leave you behind.

i don't see how a 200hp hot hatch (particualy a non turbo one with not torque and all these hatches are also getting heavier by the year) can be much quicker if at all than a 200hp 200lbft e30 when they weight the same. So it will come down to the drivers skill, gearing and reaction times plus drag at higher speeds.