Hartge's Views on Suspension

[M5pilot]

I just been on the phone to Birds UK talking to kevin Bird about suspesnion setups.

The reason I called him is because I had a ride in a H26 with the full Hartge suspension and in all honesty Ive never been in an e30 with such a supple ride with handling which is as good as karan's car (which is excellent).

he then gave me a mini lecture talking about how hartge dont believe it takes super hard suspension to get a car to handle well. he said the Hartge spring kit was actually the same spring rate as mtec springs but just a little lower (being lower improved the handling aswell). He then went on about Anti roll bars.
Now the rear anti roll bar is the most important. This is what, as he put it, "kills the oversteer" and allows you take corners alot faster.
The front Anti roll bar is not of that much importance but it was sold by hartge only because most of demand because alot of people think you "have" to do the fronts if your doing the back.

Seeing as they dont sell any supension anymore (he said maybe you can still get shocks) I asked what would be the nearest thing to get that sort of ride and Handling.

He went through a few brands and said While Eibach springs are high quality they are far too hard. He said to research on springs that had very similar spring rate to Mtec ones but about 15mm lower.

As for Anti rolls bars, a rear 16mm one be ideal (this is the thickness of the hartge ones) and leave the front Mtec item alone. Thickening the fornt one would again introduce understeer.

As for shocks, standard Mtec items or maybe some uprated Bilsiteins Sports would be the best choice.

Oh, and while i was on the phone he said he had the last anti roll bar with bushes in stock which I have now bought.

Obvioulsy, some may think Kevin is talking rubbish but having been in a Hartge car I have to say, he knows exatly what hes talking about.

The biggest problem I have with E30 suspension when uprated is the ride gets too hard and makes the car really horrible to drive.

So for me atleast, the hunt is on for springs that are 15mm lower than Mtec but have about the same spring rate. I am going to fit the rear ARB only with the poly bushes they supply.

Then its standard Mtec shocks and lets see what the end result is!

Hopefully Kevin's input about suspension will be beneficial to all of us.

[Turbo-Brown]

I've got an old book on suspension which agrees with that:

If you've got hard springs, more of the energy in a bump will be transferred into the body causing it to rise and the weight to come off that wheel. Hit a bump mid corner a the lower weight on the wheel means less grip.

A softer setup lets the wheel move without the body being affected

[Demlotcrew]

Sal, thats why im not changing my setup, Hartge kit is also really good in the wet, but with karans i dont think he could do much appart from slide side to side.

Andrew

[M5pilot]

Looks like they know their stuff then!

BTW, Eibach rear anti roll bars are also 16mm but unfortunalety only the rears cannot be bought.

Ants old sport used to have some fairly soft lowering springs on it with bilstien sport shocks. The ride in that was superb and the handling was better than my Koni/AVO setup. If that had thicker anti roll bars Im sure it would have been pretty much ideal.

Ive also noticed that Quaser's cab which is again fitted with soft lowering springs handles excpetionally well and rides very smoothly.

E30Pilots car also only has AVO lowering springs on it with standard shocks. That handles very close to what karans car does. Im going to have a look at the AVO springs in more detail and get the spring rates. Alot of people slag them off but from experience there is little else out there to beat them for ride comfort and handling.

Are we all wasting out money on expensive suspension kits which in reality dont really do much for handling?

[Karan]

since putting my hartge arbs on...... i have to agree with demlot... they really do rule in the wet.,.. theres higher ultimate grip and mid slide 'controllability' is vastly improved! in the dry it is now harder to get the arse out and bodyroll is very little as i demonstrated to u at lakeside Sal...

Sal.... just a cheap option.... but it IS possible to fasten 2 rear arbs together,,,, either welded or with some type of bracket! teh drifters do this to make slides more controllable middrift.. u can even jubilee clip them the whole way across believe ot or not! this would also work!

unfortunately with older cars.... ie e30s the only way to really make them handle is to increase spring rates and harden the car... as a result of the high unsprung weights (this is the big enemy to handling as well as geometry) newer bmws use ally stuff in the arms... which although weaker than the old skool e30 bits are far lighter!

also remember my car is polybushed... im sure it would be softer with stock bmw bushes (im staying with rubber ones for the project car for the time being....) the poly bushes tend to add a certain 'edge' which does transmit more knocks..

i agree harder is NOT better... unless the road is smooth...

demlots should be nice when he gets some h&r springs on there... although i think up to the limit it is fine as it is...for a road car.. mine tends to come into its own on mway driving and when really pushing at the limit and over it... the balance just feels so right even compared to my other 4 pot e30s... one which i spoilt by putting eibach/koni on--

i have to say one thing about the iS>... its prettyy hard to top tyhe suspension setup on that car as the stock mtech is sooo good.. just a bit high...

Karan

[Demlotcrew]

Sal, dont get too excited your not going to find amazing handling with cheap springs, so i would not bother.

Andrew

[M5pilot]

Demlot, AVO's have been tried and tested by myself and E30Pilot. While they arent the most expensive at about Ԛ£90 they are most certainly not rubbish.

Why do we have to keep slating stuff because its cheaper than the likes of Eibach?

With Avo's we found superb ride height which is practical, same sort of ride as Mtec springs, no bounciness and they have stood the test of time.

Karan,

your car has been praised by myself and many others in the handling department quite a few times.
I would buy that kit if only it wasnt so low at the back.

Anyway, just got another email from Kevin advising me on going for Origional Equipment Mtec shocks all round from the "early car". He said the Bilstien sports are very hard on the 325i's and I can confirm this from when I fitted them to my 2.7. I had H&R springs aswell and its totally different from the cup kit. Cup kit actually rode better and handled better.

Demlot, your car rolls so much and has alot of understeer.

[M5pilot]

Did anyone ever get to go in Geoff's H26? I did. He pushed that car really hard around the same Lakeside roundabouts and the handling was fantastic, minimal role just like Karan's car.

Therefore you dont have to fit super stiff springs and shocks on to E30's to get excellent handling as Hartge have proven.

[Karan]

Sal if ure worried bout height,.... there is a ceeky thing u could do for the rear of the car.... u coulkd get a steel spacer made about 1cm thick and have it placed under the rear springs...

Karan

[Jhonno]

yeah i'd concur with everything said here.. if you look at the Lotus Elise i think you'll find that has quite 'soft' suspension setup yet is touted as one of the best handling road cars..

on the track, you may need a stiffer setup as the speeds are higher and the surface quality better

if you want springs to a certain spec Sal - try H&R race springs maybe.. you can specify length and poundage so if you can find out the spring rates of the M-Tech springs then maybe that would be an option, other than that i think there are a couple of companies in the uk that will make you a set of springs to how you want them

[M5pilot]

But arent the shocks made for shorter springs? Do you think it could be a case that it would be pulling the shock rod out a little more than it should be?

Oh, and another thing, I dont think Cup kit is made for Tourings.

Will invest in the Mtec Shocks for a start and will hunt down some more springs of a more expensive nature. I can imagine the slating I get for fitting "cheap springs" from the brand name snobs.

Also want to find out a bit more about progressively coiled springs. I was far from impressed with Eibachs. I hated they way they initally rolled and then suddenly tightned up. This may not be the case with other progressively coiled springs though.

[M5pilot]

yeah i'd concur with everything said here.. if you look at the Lotus Elise i think you'll find that has quite 'soft' suspension setup yet is touted as one of the best handling road cars..

on the track, you may need a stiffer setup as the speeds are higher and the surface quality better

if you want springs to a certain spec Sal - try H&R race springs maybe.. you can specify length and poundage so if you can find out the spring rates of the M-Tech springs then maybe that would be an option, other than that i think there are a couple of companies in the uk that will make you a set of springs to how you want them

Again, im not that inclined to spend masive amounts of money due to the fact that I have found that AVO's do a great job.
I will go and drive e30Pilots car again and attempt a few roundabouts.

From the last drive which was on Saturday I was very impressed. high speed motorway driving was extremely stable. High speed conrnering with the standard front shocks he has was way beyond what Id expect. To top it off, ride quaility excellent.
Ive been in a car with Eibach springs and Billy shocks, it was no where near as good and it had all new bushes aswell. Proof that the price of some of the stuff out there is not an indicator of the quailty.

[Jhonno]

end of the day i guess its down to whether you are happy with the handling of the car.. (why do you think F1 drivers find it difficult swapping to a team mates setup?!) if you are happy with Avo's then who am i (not that i was, i've been in Quaser's cab and was impressed with the ride considering the state of the roads in London) or anyone else to argue.. Proof is in the pudding when you are able to out corner them on the way to Lakeside or summat lol

[Demlotcrew]

Anyway, just got another email from Kevin advising me on going for Origional Equipment Mtec shocks all round from the "early car". He said the Bilstien sports are very hard on the 325i's and I can confirm this from when I fitted them to my 2.7. I had H&R springs aswell and its totally different from the cup kit. Cup kit actually rode better and handled better.

Demlot, your car rolls so much and has alot of understeer.

Ha thats funny since the early sports only came with the upside down bilstein sports shocks all round

So what exactly is he telling you to buy? (by the sounds of it, my setup)

The conclusion of the body roll and understeer of my car came from when you drove it? Or just speculation?

Andrew

[M5pilot]

You know Quaser's cab has PI springs and standard shocks. Bit soft but doesnt handle too badly.

Quaser has driven e30Pilots car and commented on how well it handled and rode.

Another person to ask is PeteE30Touring. he has Avo springs with Koni shocks.

Anyway, everyone to their own.

To be honest price has got nothing to do with it. I know the AVO's are good so I will fit them. Unless of course someone can impress me with something else. If I find something thats better by a big margin and costs Ԛ£150 I will pay Ԛ£150.

I hate changing suspension anyway and would rather get it to my spec (as Im going to drive the car) first time round.

Saying that, Ant has some suspension fitted to his car, cant remember the name but its regarded as cheap by the brand name snobs but its very very good.

[Karan]

Anyway, just got another email from Kevin advising me on going for Origional Equipment Mtec shocks all round from the "early car". He said the Bilstien sports are very hard on the 325i's and I can confirm this from when I fitted them to my 2.7. I had H&R springs aswell and its totally different from the cup kit. Cup kit actually rode better and handled better.

Demlot, your car rolls so much and has alot of understeer.

Ha thats funny since the early sports only came with the upside down bilstein sports shocks all round

So what exactly is he telling you to buy? (by the sounds of it, my setup)

The conclusion of the body roll and understeer of my car came from when you drove it? Or just speculation?

Andrew

if u just turn in all e3s will understeer...

u have to provoke neutral/oversteer cornering in all e30s i feel--maybe not as much in the 4 pots or m3s as the 6 pots...

also dont forget the m3 tca bushes Sal.... geometry is vital...

demlot do u have these? if not GET them!

Karan

[Demlotcrew]

Quaser has driven e30Pilots car and commented on how well it handled and rode.

Drives a touring,

NUFF SAID! [/quote karan off]

I just dont believe for a min that a cab with standard dampers and lowering springs would out handle a cab with stock springs and stock dampers, that contradicts all the theories.

Andrew

[M5pilot]

Ha thats funny since the early sports only came with the upside down bilstein sports shocks all round

So what exactly is he telling you to buy? (by the sounds of it, my setup)

The conclusion of the body roll and understeer of my car came from when you drove it? Or just speculation?

Andrew

What was suggested was Early shocks for the FRONT.

No he is saying that 15mm lower than Mtec (the 15mm lower makes a big difference).

I drove your car. Very nice smooth ride. Understeered and rolled too much though.

I wouldnt comment on your car if I hadnt driven it, that would be unfair.

Obvoulsy if youve changed something since then it may be alot better now but at that point, all I was impressed with was the smooth comfortable ride. Oh and the top end power from the 4 pot.

[Karan]

end of the day i guess its down to whether you are happy with the handling of the car.. (why do you think F1 drivers find it difficult swapping to a team mates setup?!) if you are happy with Avo's then who am i (not that i was, i've been in Quaser's cab and was impressed with the ride considering the state of the roads in London) or anyone else to argue.. Proof is in the pudding when you are able to out corner them on the way to Lakeside or summat lol

on that note..... i had a race with a 535/540(guessing as it was debadged and he was pretty fast on the striaghts-not much in it) e34 today..pulled away very slowly from him on straights... but at the nxt roundabout i did make him look very silly indeed.... my tyres didnt even start screeching or scrubbing and i was able to go round the outside of him and he was rolling all over the show.... made my day as i went round the outside with one arm on the steering wheel with my 195 3 spokes on the rear! followed by the 318 badge of course

karan

[M5pilot]

also dont forget the m3 tca bushes Sal.... geometry is vital...



Karan

Yep, I had them on the 2.7. its not a small difference.

[Karan]

Ha thats funny since the early sports only came with the upside down bilstein sports shocks all round

So what exactly is he telling you to buy? (by the sounds of it, my setup)

The conclusion of the body roll and understeer of my car came from when you drove it? Or just speculation?

Andrew

What was suggested was Early shocks for the FRONT.

No he is saying that 15mm lower than Mtec (the 15mm lower makes a big difference).

I drove your car. Very nice smooth ride. Understeered and rolled too much though.

I wouldnt comment on your car if I hadnt driven it, that would be unfair.

Obvoulsy if youve changed something since then it may be alot better now but at that point, all I was impressed with was the smooth comfortable ride. Oh and the top end power from the 4 pot.

i have driven demlots car and id be well happy with that setup for the road... although i never pushed it that hard to understeer u can feel sometimes what a car is gonna do without pushing it hard and actually reaching the limit. my only prob with demlots was the steering which was a tad light in my opinion,,,, hence id recommend the m3 tca bushes and a return to 205 section rubber... although saying that it is on hartges now so the light steering issue may no longer be a problem

[Demlotcrew]

Sal early Mtech shocks from the front are Bilstein sports! Ill get you the part number and i have one in my loft which has the BMW parts stamped into the case along with a bilstien number and its yellow! I really donÔš't know why he would recommend u mix dampers???

The only thing my car has had done is the subframe bushes and lower profile tyres because of the hartge wheels. You say that 15mm makes a difference? well yeah it would if the car was riding on brand new springs! but mines are old and the car sits much lower than 15mm more like 25mm.

Anyway, each to their own.

Andrew

[M5pilot]

Quaser has driven e30Pilots car and commented on how well it handled and rode.

Drives a touring,

NUFF SAID! [/quote karan off]

I just dont believe for a min that a cab with standard dampers and lowering springs would out handle a cab with stock springs and stock dampers, that contradicts all the theories.

Andrew

Well, no one is asking you to believe it. Im sure you understand I have better things to do than come on here and lie for no reason.

[Karan]

god damn suspension debate...... LOL



always ends like this..

i think we should understand... each setup has its pros and cons..... once they are on track they will all be crap...

for UK roads id say stock mtec or cup kit is the way to go..

Sal so what if they dont make one for the touring.... just get the spacer made as i suggested--its not a problem and easily done.... the shock is constant rate the whole way so having it sitting at a different rest position has no effect!!!

Karan

[Demlotcrew]

Ha thats funny since the early sports only came with the upside down bilstein sports shocks all round

So what exactly is he telling you to buy? (by the sounds of it, my setup)

The conclusion of the body roll and understeer of my car came from when you drove it? Or just speculation?

Andrew

What was suggested was Early shocks for the FRONT.

No he is saying that 15mm lower than Mtec (the 15mm lower makes a big difference).

I drove your car. Very nice smooth ride. Understeered and rolled too much though.

I wouldnt comment on your car if I hadnt driven it, that would be unfair.

Obvoulsy if youve changed something since then it may be alot better now but at that point, all I was impressed with was the smooth comfortable ride. Oh and the top end power from the 4 pot.

i have driven demlots car and id be well happy with that setup for the road... although i never pushed it that hard to understeer u can feel sometimes what a car is gonna do without pushing it hard and actually reaching the limit. my only prob with demlots was the steering which was a tad light in my opinion,,,, hence id recommend the m3 tca bushes and a return to 205 section rubber... although saying that it is on hartges now so the light steering issue may no longer be a problem

Thanks Karan, im really happy with the handling, like i said to you when following that Type R his inside wheel was lifting off the ground and i was still on power, and thats with the shitty firehawks in the dry.
If anything i would like to drop her a little more to make her a aesthetically pleasing. I might go down the 10mm cup drop route, which means i can keep my springs.

Andrew

[M5pilot]

Sal early Mtech shocks from the front are Bilstein sports! Ill get you the part number and i have one in my loft which has the BMW parts stamped into the case along with a bilstien number and its yellow! I really donÔš't know why he would recommend u mix dampers???

The only thing my car has had done is the subframe bushes and lower profile tyres because of the hartge wheels. You say that 15mm makes a difference? well yeah it would if the car was riding on brand new springs! but mines are old and the car sits much lower than 15mm more like 25mm.

Anyway, each to their own.

Andrew

Part number would be good, I will compare with what he has given me.

Dunno why is telling me to mix and match.

However, I think he has a fair bit of knowledge so I lets see what the end result is!

[Karan]

Sal early Mtech shocks from the front are Bilstein sports! Ill get you the part number and i have one in my loft which has the BMW parts stamped into the case along with a bilstien number and its yellow! I really donÔš't know why he would recommend u mix dampers???

The only thing my car has had done is the subframe bushes and lower profile tyres because of the hartge wheels. You say that 15mm makes a difference? well yeah it would if the car was riding on brand new springs! but mines are old and the car sits much lower than 15mm more like 25mm.

Anyway, each to their own.

Andrew

Part number would be good, I will compare with what he has given me.

Dunno why is telling me to mix and match.

However, I think he has a fair bit of knowledge so I lets see what the end result is!

he sounds like he knows what hes on about.... but that is relevant for all cars really! does he actually have an e30?

hartge rule....!!!!

[Demlotcrew]

Okay heres the pics taken right now. Hope you can make the P/N out.





As you can see its 1" short and it was taken from a early sport. The new dampers are slightly better as they disperce the heat into the strut leg.

Andrew

[Simon13]

Ant runs Apex springs. A car with brand new m-tech springs, and billy sports or the later boge jobbie would be interesting. I think we slate the m-tech stuff but all our m-tech setup cars are 15years old! Only cars which are re-bushed and new shocks springs should be considered if u get me.

H&R cup kit has progressive springs sal. half of it is the bloke driving it anyway!

Who are the "brand snobs"? made laugh that did!

U slag sports off like no 2moro but there's always a wanted add for one? Even if they are more rusty than non kit cars

2p

[Demlotcrew]

Sal, get me a pic of a BNC box on a M42? I been tinkering with the idea of getting one, but i just dont see how it will fit!

Andrew

[M5pilot]

BMC on an M42.....mmm..........dunno where im going to get a pic from to be honest. Let me see if we can get one on trial, if it dont fit then we get refund.

Mtec stuff is really good when its new. I have a friend who replaced all the shocks and springs on his early sport and it was really really good. He had all the bushes replaced aswell.

Brand Snobs - well i wont disclose any names.

Sports?....bloody chav magnets........LOL, SE's and Tourings are much classier.

Dont take my Sport abuse to heart, I dont mean it. If it was practical I would actually buy one but wouldnt pay more than Ԛ£1000 over an SE. Ԛ£3500 is top money for a decent sport as far as Im concerned. Anything over that has to be Alpina/Hartge or 2.7 with 200+ BHP. Just my opinoin really, dont take it to heart.

[M5pilot]

he sounds like he knows what hes on about.... but that is relevant for all cars really! does he actually have an e30?

hartge rule....!!!!

I dont know if he owns one. One thing I do know is that he has driven loads of them, probably owned one in the past and has probably played around with them quite a bit.

As I said before, Geoff's H26 handled like it was on rails, very little roll like yours and very nice ride quailty. Only about 15-20mmmm lower than a sport aswell.

[Ant]

My last post for 2 weeks and its this.................

The Tech 1 had Boge -35mm springs with replacement yellow Billies straight from the $tealer

The SE has APEX springs all round, Apex front inserts and yellow billies on the rear, the Apex rears were too choppy and made the car feel flat when turning in, no feel no roll , so I swopped to some softer comp damping Billies and she grips like a limpet now, good weight transfer charateristics too.

Se handles better than the sport ever did, its a lot lighter which helps and doesn't push the front anymore, Offset TCA bushes are in the boot ready to fit upon my return, will have the Borbet Bs refurbed then too if theres any Ԛ£Ã”šÃ‚£ left

keep the peace peeps, catch you early May

[bryn_p]

I guess I should get off my lazy ass and finish my cars as I have the following setups:

325i Sport - Bilstein Sport(?) dampers and Eibach springs (all new) - very hard ride but corners very flat (not driven it for 4 years though!)
325i Track Car - Koni adjustables, Apex springs and M3 control arm bushes - not finished yet so not driven in anger, but seems very very hard but very direct.
325i SE - New M-Tech inserts and unknown lowering springs from Proven Products (any ideas gents??). Too hard to be M-Tech in my opinion, and don't compliment the dampers well.

The best I had was my mint 1990 325i Sport on original M-Tech stuff. It handled brilliantly and had a nice ride too. The only thing better I've driven is my M5, but that has EDC which is Ԛ£500 a corner

Does anyone know if the EDC on the E30 M3 is any good? Its quite a rare option I think???

Cheers,
Bryn.

[Adammcf]

Interesting little read this was! Was thinking of changing my shocks at some stage and now Ive no idea what to get! LOL