For fcuk's sake!

[minime1275]

Earlier in the week i booked my 320 in for an oil change at my local National Tyres. I took it in a 9:00 this morning expecting it to be done in 10 mins as I was their 1st customer. I specifically asked them to use their 10W40 Duckhams XQR semi-synthetic after reading Oilman's posts on here (priced Ԛ£15 with my money off vouchers! ) rather than the other stuff they had (Hypergrade I think)


However, I was told to return at 10:30 as the filters hadnt been delivered - fair enough, I'll go for a breakfast at Morrisons while im waiting.

At 10:20 I was walking back towards the garage and I could see my car on the ramps and hear it being revved. I walked into the garage where 2 mechanics had their heads under the bonnet and were revving it.

"We cant get the oil light to go out", one said.
"Oh! Hadnt you better switch it off and stop revving it then?!" I asked nervously.

The mechanic drew my attention to a "rattling" noise coming from the engine and I know for certain that it was a new noise.

"Oil pump must've gone", said the other mechanic.
"Well, its been fine until now - are you sure its the pump?" I said.
"What? Are you saying we've done something?" he replied.
"All Im saying is that I brought it in and everything was fine. No oil light coming on, no rattles (unusual ones, anyway)"

They rang another garage round the corner for advice and he suggested a faulty spring in the new filter they'd just fitted. They took the new filter off and it was bone dry.

"Thats strange, never seen that before!" he said.

Anyway, theyve put the old filter on with the new oil and told me to come back this afternoon when a new new filter has been delivered.

Fair enough I though. I have to go somewhere, so Im going back to have the job finished later. I suggested I paid them when the jobs done properly.

"Thats Ԛ£10 sir"
"Ԛ£10? It says Ԛ£15 for the semi-synthetic or Ԛ£10 for the other stuff. I asked for the semi-synthetic when i dropped it off, didnt I?!"
"Did you? I put this in because I thought it would be best with the age and mileage"

Anyway, they're gonna replace filter and put semi-synthetic in when I go back later today.

IMPORTANT QUESTION
Might they have done any harm running the engine for even a few minutes when the filter they fitted wasnt allowing the oil to circulate and it was making a rattling noise? The noise has gone, but Im worried that damage may have been done? What do you think?

[M3RAGS]

well if there is no oil circulating, then there will be oil starvation and a lack of oil pressure. This could have happened.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys

[Dom]

depends how lucky you are, but I certainly wouldn't be taking my car there again!!

[nav786]

where abouts did you go? what area? only that there is a national tyre place in Woking where i am that has very bad reputation, and also there is a morrisons opposite. could it be same one....

[mrmean]

theres a new law thats come out now,that could get garages like this in sum deep sh*t.id look in2 it if i was u and report the garage 4 it!!

[minime1275]

They called me back just after I posted my original thread, saying a new oil filter had been delivered. I drove there, they put the new filter on and the same problem occurred. No oil pressure and the filter was bone dry.

However, now he says that the wrong filter must be listed in the parts catalogue and has ordered a official BMW part for as soon as possible.

My friend has built and rebuilt engines and says "I wouldnt be happy with them revving it with no oil circulating - blipping once to get it flowing, yes, but I wouldnt be happy with that! It could drop a rod or something!"



He's said the engines are tough, but to get the garage to sign the invoice, saying what they've done and the problem with the oil not getting through, just incase!

Im now waiting for a phone call from the garage when the BMW filter arrives, but Im gonna be sh*tting myself whenever I drive it now! Hope they haven't done any damage to the engine.

[minime1275]

where abouts did you go? what area? only that there is a national tyre place in Woking where i am that has very bad reputation, and also there is a morrisons opposite. could it be same one....

No mate, its in the North West.

[minime1275]

I'll wait until later, when we've confirmed its not the oil pump knackered but the wrong filter fitted, before I name and shame the actual branch.

Just want 100% facts before I slag them off anymore (though if it was the oil pump, there would still be no oil pressure when they put the old filter back on - surely!!!)

[Demlotcrew]

This is why i do it all myself!

Dude i dont think its the oil pump, and as long as they were not revving the tits out of it, i think that minimal amount of damage would have been done, as the engine was not put under load.

Andrew

[minime1275]

This is why i do it all myself!

Dude i dont think its the oil pump, and as long as they were not revving the tits out of it, i think that minimal amount of damage would have been done, as the engine was not put under load.

Andrew

Andrew, I really appreciate your answer. They were blipping it to about 2-2.5k rpm and it was probably running for 3-5 mins in total (including swapping filters and trying again.

As I said, it was making a funny noise when they were doing it, but the noise has gone since they put old filter back on.

I only took it to the garage cos by the time id bought 5 litres of semi-synthetic and a new filter, it would cost around the same or more than the Ԛ£15 I was gonna pay. Wish id done it myself too

[minime1275]

Just had the job finished - all it required was an official BMW Parts oil filter (search me what difference it makes!).

I asked the manager/mechanic to sign a statement Id written at the bottom of the invoice stating that the engine had been run with two faulty oil filters, preventing oil circulation, creating zero oil pressure and resulting in a strange noise indicative of oil starvation. Im not a particularly fussy customer but my mate's a mechanic and he suggested I do this. If something went wrong in the future as a result of the engine being run with no oil circulating, I wanted some proof this had happened or id be up shit creek, as I told the manager.

He did not like me asking that, we got into an heated arguement and, as he admitted later on we "got a bit aggressive towards each other".

In the end he appologised, I appologised and he signed the statement. As far as im concerned, job done and I'll DIY it in the future! In the end, it only took 8 hours for my oil to be changed.

[Adammcf]

At least you got it sorted in the end. Thats why I never use oil filters on any car that havent come directly from the main dealer.
No point risking your engine over a couple of quid on an oil filter.

[Jesus325iTouring]

If its any conolation to stop you worrying about possible damage,I've run an old Merc 230 so low on oil that whilst ticking over one day it started getting REALLY knocky and bangy and just stopped! It then wouldn't turn over even.
Damn i thought,I knew I should have put oil in it,the light had been on for weeks after all!
Now thinking I've siezed it up,i search the barn I was in for any traces of oil i can shove in it,well,I had just changed the oil on an old 1978 Peugeot 504 that had been sat for 12 years so lying around was a tub of black treacle like 12 year old oil,that'll do for now!
Poured the oil in my Merc,crossed my fingers and turned the key......bugger me,after a few rattles its started up,the rattles pittered out after a few seconds and normal service resumed!
Well,i still didn't bother to put any new oil in it sfter that and continued to drive it around with this 12 year old treacle in in.
To give you some idea of the abuse it got after that, i was using the car to drive to Carlisle twice a week,a 600 mile round trip,tha last time I drove back I drove at between 110-120mph all the way back (early hours of the moring mind),the engine didn't miss a beat!
My point is,you probably have done no damage whatsoever to your engine so I wouldn't worry about it

PS Did the same to a MK3 Escort as well,except the 110-120mph bit and never did any damage to that either.

PPS Too anyone reading this,my Tourer DOES NOT GET THIS KIND OF TREATMENT!

[alan325i]

You took your pride and joy to National Tyres I wouldnt let them loose on my kids tricycle let alone something as technical as changing oil and oil filter.

Last time i took my car there to have tyres changed due to wife goin gup a kerb in it and ripping the shi out of tyre (which is all their good at) they suggested i have my rear shocks replaced.

"Whys that" i said
"Well sir, there is some rust on the outer casing" they said
"Oh right" i said " Id'd better take it to the MOT station which has just passed my car the day before and tell them im reporting for passing a car with dodgy shocks"

That kind of shut him up.

Amazing how mant times you take your car there and they say you need extra work done. Like i would have them chimps doing it anyways

[Matt]

wouldnt the car have a oil filter pressure by pass for when the oil filter is all clogged, it lets unfiltered oil through the engine?

[psychochild187]

i know the filter will have a bypass valve built into it for when the filter gets too clogged it lets it up the outside and down the inside rather than throught the element to the inside!

cant see how there would by a complete bypass

i got slick 50 for cases like these!

[M3Compact]

This article is from Bike magazine Feb 2004.

It may be a bike engine, but they run on petrol, are cooled by water and lubricated by oil in much the same way as a modern petrol car engine.

"Stage 1: Setting up. 'Modern engines are bullet-proof,' goes the pub wisdom. 'If you change the oil regularly and warm them up, they'll go on forever,' it continues. So why do we feel pangs of guilt when we miss a gear and trill off the rev-limiter, and feel uneasy as the fan cuts in while sitting at the lights? It's easy to believe engines are fragile, highly strung machines on the cusp of destruction with every revolution.
Time to conduct a very unscientific experiment: make an engine self-destruct then analyse the remains. It won't be under load, so won't be representative of road conditions, but it'll be interesting. Enter a 1998 Kawasaki ZX-6R with 20,000 miles on the clock.

Stage 2: Overheating. Run the engine at high revs (8000+rpm) for 30 minutes to see how it deals with fearsome heat. Heat is the engine's enemy and high performance motors are in a constant battle to produce as much power as possible without overheating. Severe overheating makes the oil lose its lubricating efficiency, at which point wear dramatically increases in the engine bearings and seizure can occur. Seized bearings or pistons are a possibility.
So what happened?
Two minutes. The fan comes on.
Three minutes. The header pipes and exhaust begin to glow.
Five minutes. With the exhaust glowing red-hot, coolant starts boiling and gushing from the overflow tank at the back of the bike.
15 minutes. All the coolant has boiled away and the clouds of steam that had surrounded the bike begin to clear. The radiator fan switches off because there's no more coolant to heat the switch.
30 minutes. The engine continues to run for the full half hour, obviously incredibly hot but with no apparent problems.
The temperature in combustion chambers can reach 2000Ԛ°C, way higher than aluminium's melting point (660Ԛ°C). The cooling system needs to keep the temperature of the cylinder head below around 250Ԛ°C for it to run reliably. If the oil gets too hot it will burn or carbonise, causing excessive wear and possible seizure. The cooling system is under pressure, so the water can reach temperatures in excess of water's boiling point at atmospheric pressure (100Ԛ°C). When it reaches 120Ԛ°C it's likely to boil over.

Stage 3: Drain oil, refill with only 1 litre, run on rev limiter for one hour The manual says the oil level should always be kept within the gradings on the sight glass, but we wanted to know how long an engine would last with far less oil than recommended. We thought the engine would cope with very little oil in it. Though the capacity is 3.5 litres, the oil loop itself will contain much less than this so the system should stay lubricated. The sump allows the oil to cool though, so in this case it will become very hot. The oil is responsible for up to a third of an engine's cooling, so this will make the bike run even hotter than before.
Banging off the rev limiter shouldn't be a problem. After all, it's there to stop the bike over-revving well before it self-destructs. And manufacturers test engines for long periods on the rev limiter - sometimes for days on end.
Things do not go according to plan.
Draining the oil is the first problem. The engine is almost red hot and when the oil drains out it's the viscosity of water and boiling ferociously. (The boiling point of oil is around 320Ԛ°C. It can withstand this for brief periods, but will carbonise if it's at this temperature for too long.) Within seconds it melts right through our plastic drop tank and oozes over the workshop floor. Damn.
We add the 1 litre. Hmm. It's possible to hear the oil boiling immediately.

Stage 4: Carry on regardless. The engine is started and the throttle taped fully open. For the first few seconds everything seems fine, but then we hear the first backfires.
No cause for concern until the backfires become worryingly frequent. We realise that the limiter is cutting the spark so that unburnt fuel is being pumped into the red-hot exhaust and exploding. The sequence is this:
20 secs. Flames from the silencer.
50 secs. Big flames are coming out.
1 m 10 secs. Small hole appears in the exhaust.
1 m 20 secs. A large hole is blown in the silencer and sparks fly.
1 m 25 secs. It looks like there's a huge fin burning at the back of the bike.
1 m 35 we attack it with fire extinguisher.
1 m 40 Dash in and turn off the ignition.
1 m 45 Dowse the bike with fire extinguishers and leave the building.

Stage 5: It's alive a day later, when everything has cooled down; we top up the oil and start the engine. It runs smoothly and doesn't sound too harsh either. The bike's won. We leave it alone."

A fair testament to the brilliance of modern engineering.

[minime1275]

M3Compact - I wonder if the bikes owner knew what they were gonna do when they borrowed it! At least I have a bit more mechanical sympathy with my 320!

The truth is, you've made a good point and you've done a lot to calm my easily worried mind.

wouldnt the car have a oil filter pressure by pass for when the oil filter is all clogged, it lets unfiltered oil through the engine?

Im not too knowledgeable on the intricacies of the oil system. Maybe it should when you fit the right type of oil filter, but they don't do that at this particular garage!

I do know that the oil pressure light stayed on with the wrong filter on it, they were blipping it to try to make it go out and he said "listen to that noise its making"

Im also sure it has more rattles and clicks now and i daren't take it past 3,000rpm. The 320mile trip to Newquay (following 120+ minis off www.Minifinity.com for the 'Riviera Run' ) in a fortnight will be the real test!