Project-M45 super charger (developments)

[jkarran]

http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/ for the composite supplies.

That duct used <1sqM of CSM, about a sqr foot of C/K twill. 70ml gellcoat and 350ml polyester resin.

If you plan to use kevlar than buy some shears at the same time. They're pricey but the stuff is totally unworkable without them.

I just did some sums and came to some worrying conclusions. If the duct base is 5x6" at 10psig there's an outward force of 1360N (equiv 136kg) and a force of 180N trying to rip the ally neck out of the glass.

At room temp I'm sure it will be fine but at 70degC will the 7 bolts (in an ideal world 195N each) that hold the flange to the SC just pull through? I think a pressure test in the oven might be in order

jk

[appletree]

WOW no that is cool, realy cool!! that has given me a idea of how to make an inlet i need to do thats a stupid shape. (TB to S/C inlet) is the fibre glass and carbon fibre reasonably easy to work with??

just got one question, how do you intend to fix the inlet you've made to the outlet of the super charger???

[jkarran]

The flange at the bottom of the duct has a flat underside from the waxed mdf, it will be trimmed to shape, drilled to take the 7 fixing bolts (I tapped 3 new M5 holes in the long runs between the 4 main 8mm fixings on the SC outlet) and bolted up to the SC with some non setting sealent.

The glass is dead simple to work with, just rip it into small patches, hold it in place with a finger, paint resin on, wait a moment till it softens then stipple down onto the mould with a bit more resin. 3-4% catalyst gives you 20min or so of working time before the resin gells at cool room temp. just mix 100mL at a time untill you are happy working fast or ding a big simple shape.

CF is harder to apply (neatly). Best method is to drape it over the shape once the last lot of resin has cured beyond tackiness (otherwise it tugs at the fibers and makes a mess as you drape it), add any cuts, stretches etc then paint resin onto it and work creases/bubbles out with fingers and brush. CF onto gellcoat is a nightmare, the tacky gellcoat makes a right mess of the weave if you're not careful when laying it down.

A mask with organic vapour traps is a good idea if you are doing lots or just get good ventilation. Wear disposable gloves, the resin turns your skin a sticky black Buy some acetone for cleaning up, the resin is disgusting stuff.

jk

[Andy335Touring]

Thanks again for the info and pics

What do you think of useing some polysyrene(sp?) foam cut to shape then use a thinish skimming of clay over the top for the mold ?

I was thinking if you are using less clay you won't have so much shrinkage as it drys out and the foam will be fairly easy to remove ?

[Jon_Bmw]

You could use petrol on the polystyriene to disolve it. The added bonus is that it makes a cheap napalm as well

[jkarran]

Having spent last night removing (most of) the clay I think that sounds lime a good idea. Try a test piece first though because the resin disolves polystyrene, the fumes might be a problem. Basically the jet washer didn't touch the clay, it had set too hard. I had to resort to soaking in warm water and removing the clay 1/2" at a time with a butter knife. The clay also leaves a residue on the inside of the duct that needs to be sanded out (midget hands needed).

Ah well, one done, one to go and some lessons learned. Scorch the top surface of the clay to remove the fine strag fibers that will bind it to the gellcoat. Wax the clay surface to ease cleaning later.



In places the flat sealing face isn't as big as I hoped (must have got careless when making the mould) but it needn't be a problem, non setting silicone or something similar will seal that just fine. It is also much stronger than I expected, squeezing as hard as I can at its weakest points it doesn't flex apreciably



And finally a view of the extra M5/6 (?) tappings I put in to support the flat plate I initially planned to use. One of these (top of picture) can't be used because of the shape of the duct, the other two will be helpful in spreading the load.



jk

[stuartgallafant]

jk, that duct you made looks fantastic!!

it really is something to be proud of!!

[jkarran]

It'll be almost totally hidden in the car

The plenum on the other hand should be sweet if I get it right and polished up real nice

jk

[stuartgallafant]

are you fabricating the plenum in a similar way?!

[jkarran]

PS. What are theEatomM60 like in comparison to the M45, size wise? They would make a good upgrade for you if you later decided to upgrade. I seem to remember them being very similar but with about twice the displacement per rev.

1000cc/rev vs 750cc/rev (the number after the M is cubic inches/rev). They (M60 from Mercs) have totally different inlet outlet arangements to the CooperS one.

The BMW Works upgrade blower might be an option (M60 or just improved M45, anyone know?).

jk

[Toby_Unna]

that looks superb!

[jkarran]

are you fabricating the plenum in a similar way?!

I wish! Plenum is welded alloy that all needs grinding smooth and polishing. Gotta learn how to do it sometime and I've put it off long enough, just waiting for payday now to buy a tig set.

jk

[stuartgallafant]

im gonna have to have a go a fabricating a plenum too, for my engine project

im not looking forward to it!!!

[appletree]

stuart can you still not see that fan picture??

[stuartgallafant]

stuart can you still not see that fan picture??

dude, sorry mate! yes, i can see it now! i dunno what was happening before!!

looks like a good little set-up you got on that!! thats what im gonna have to do to mine. i've got the E34 air-con fan for my lump, which has to be mounted in front of the rad, so a similar set-up to yours will suit

just out of interest matt, what injectors will you be using in place of your M42 ones?

[appletree]

not quite looked that far ahead yet, if IIRC the ones in it are okup to 200bhp but i dont know what the next step is or what colour they are?? any ideas??

what conversion are you doing stuart?? did i read somewere that you was looking in to doing a supercharger on a M42? do you work at/for bmw as i could do with having a look how the mini tesioner works for the supercharger if you could get a pick.

[stuartgallafant]

...i dont know what the next step is or what colour they are?? any ideas??

i might possibly have a set of MINI Cooper S injectors for sale. Rated to 380cc. I thik i'll be using these, as they can probably cope with the pressure better, and they're newer

what conversion are you doing stuart??did i read somewere that you was looking in to doing a supercharger on a M42

thats a bit of a secret at the mo!! to be honest, i havnt got a final idea on what i'm doing, it keeps changing as the days go on, but all will be revealed soon!! i do have a supercharger if i do want to do the conversion

...do you work at/for bmw as i could do with having a look how the mini tesioner works for the supercharger if you could get a pick.

yes, i do work for BMW. PM with what you specifically want to know

[appletree]

[quote="jkarranThe BMW Works upgrade blower might be an option (M60 or just improved M45, anyone know?).jk[/quote]

As far as i understud it the works Charger is the same as the m45 but with teflon coated roters like mine rather than streight alloy ones. do;nt know if this improves the performance?? less heat better seal???

[jkarran]

Mine are teflon coated too Pretty sure thats the stock (mark 4?) Eaton M45 internals. They've changed their website though and I can't find the data anymore.

I thought the blower upgrade was to get more boost without sacraficing thermal efficiency. I'd have thought a bigger pair of rotors would be the logical way to do it but I am guessing so I could be wrong.

Yours has different castings to mine I think between the two M8 tappings at the narrow end of the outlet port (pic on pg1 of this thread)... Odd, is yours the BMW/Cooper upgraded one?



jk

[appletree]

Done a few more bits yeterday, made the new throttle cable guard mount thing, made a plug for the brake fluid resivour as it had three out lets (one for clutch) and started to strip the engine and order new parts of which there are LOOOOADS .

mainly spent time degreasing the engine last night and removing the timin cases ready for the real stripping to start thursday night.

the engine does seam to look very dark and brown in the pics but it actualy quite good





also started looking in to making the air ducting for my throttle body to S/C inlet the same way as JKarren and made up some strip for the G/F C/F to grip on to.

the plate below mounts on to the back of the S/C and then goes over the inlet and the hole next to that is the throttle body, as you can see it very orcward in shape and size soi think i am gonna have a go at making one like JK however mine will have to have a plate for a recirc dump valve to bolt to molded in to it. the strips will be weled up and then on to the plate and have grooves ground in to them for the F/G to grip to

i know the plate looks abit rough at the moment but is because i had to chop bits off it to make it fit and it was abit trial and error as i wanted to take the least amount as possible out.





i've also had tomodify the throttle bodys cable mount, i've cut it in half and am going to use the mount and stop for the Auto kick down function as the normal mount and stop is tohigh and getting close to touching the bonnet, useing the auto set up gives me around 1" between that and the bonnet.



lastly i've made up a support for the S/C, my idea is to make a second "u" mount and bolt it on to the engine mount stud and then use the rose joint to triangulate the force down to there rather than having it all pulling on the inlet manifold studs.

[stuartgallafant]

matt, this really is looking fantastic!!

i see you and JK have been discussing the John Cooper Works Upgrade Kit... basically, the charger is EXACTLY the same. the only difference is the size of the pulleys. as far as im aware, the pulley is about 10-15% smaller IIRC.

The teflon coated rotors in question are black, and these Eaton M45 'chargers superceeded the original 'chargers in early '06 i believe. The changed the rotors due to heat dissipation and air turbulence/flow or something like that... The black teflon coated rotors create a better charge force and create less heat, how much by, i am not sure. i cant imagine it will be a great deal!

hope that helps chaps!!

if after all this you're wondering why you get a new charger with the conversion, its because the company needs to look like its actually changed somehting significant!! the original 'chargers were supposed to be sent back to BMW GB after the Works upgrade, however, not much of them were, hence you see so many eBay!!! So, yes, you pay £4500 for a smaller pulley!!!!

[appletree]

mine isnt a upgrade one as far as i know but i have seen people selling the work ones on ebay and they have black internals lioke mine and mine does seam to have a diffent castings to yours on the back .

IIRC mine was off a 05 plate delivery mileage car and had been in garage for a bit.

hears a pic of my dads merc one and my mini one, not sure if the merc ones a M62 as it does seam to have slightly bigger internals. it also has a spring loaded pully to prevent damage from back fire!!

[jkarran]

i see you and JK have been discussing the John Cooper Works Upgrade Kit... basically, the charger is EXACTLY the same. the only difference is the size of the pulleys. as far as im aware, the pulley is about 10-15% smaller IIRC.

That would not make me a happy man to hear that having shelled out £4K5 no matter how much faster the motor was. Can the pullys not be pulled off or is it really just a marketing exercise? I guess you have to be careful what you say

I might be tempted to take the pully off mine, run it at the engine end and turn up a smaller one for the SC, saves rotating weight and material.

Funny thing, the different castings, I could understand different machining on different model years to correct a problem/reduce cost etc but it seems very odd to go with new castings.

Matt, the throttle body arrangement looks neat. You using clay for the former?

jk

[stuartgallafant]

Can the pullys not be pulled off or is it really just a marketing exercise? I guess you have to be careful what you say

yes, the pulleys can be changed, but its not simply just changing the pulleys. It comes as a kit, because all the preset values for everything are changed, but essentially, it comes down to the pulley being a different size

I might be tempted to take the pully off mine, run it at the engine end and turn up a smaller one for the SC, saves rotating weight and material.

what do you mean by take the pulley off and run it at engine end???

Funny thing, the different castings, I could understand different machining on different model years to correct a problem/reduce cost etc but it seems very odd to go with new castings
jk

when you say castings, are you talking about the rotors or the casing of the 'charger?

[jkarran]

I guess there are a number of other bits (IC, ECU) in the works upgrade but swapping the whole SC to swap the pully seems extreme!

By 'run the pully at the engine end', what I mean is use the pully salvaged from the SC as the power take off from the engine (take-off shaft has not been made yet, could be made to suit the old Eaton pully?) and fit a smaller (fabricated) pully to the SC. It just means I have a smaller rather than a larger pully to make.

The casting I refer to is the SC rotor housing. Differences are visible around the outlet port between mine and Matt's.

jk

[stuartgallafant]

oh right, i get ya!!!

[gareth]

It's going to be a good technique(sp?) for some thing i have to try to get around on my car, similar to your shape, i need an 90 degree elbow thats 4 1/2" diameter oval one end going to a round 85mm diameter circle at the other end.

i know the one


i've missed this thread for a bit...

i'm very impressed with the work involved and feel an almost uncontrollable urge to fit a jag blower to my M30 and finish it off with some nice homemade carbon ducting!!!

that's if i ever get round to getting it roadworthy again!!!!!

[keri-WMS]

I looked into the Eaton details a few years back, and as far as I could find out they are all Teflon coated as standard, the "works" ones had a really odd (thicker) abrasive coating that was designed to run with VERY little/no rotor clearance!

This coating apparently then simply wears down (rapidly) where ever the rotors touch, creating a self-perfecting seal.

But, as ever with info off the internet, it might be cobblers!

[stuartgallafant]

sounds like it makes sense though keri

[appletree]

the rotors on mine are veery rough, i thought it would have been realy smooth almost polished finished, but the above would make sence!

JK- ya i am going to use the clay as a former and do the C/F like you! i will be calling on you for some pointers when i get started .

found some other weird stuff on ebay, basically clay like stuff that you heat up to 65 degrees mold and then it sets to nylon!!! does melt at 65 degrees again but you could make any type of guage pod or Ice install/brakets you wanted.

[stuartgallafant]

matt, put a link up mate, i could do with some of that stuff!!

[jkarran]

the rotors on mine are veery rough, i thought it would have been realy smooth almost polished finished, but the above would make sence!

Mine are glass smooth and slippery apart from a couple of scratches from a sand grain that had got in there Ah well, it's nothing too bad.

JK- ya i am going to use the clay as a former and do the C/F like you! i will be calling on you for some pointers when i get started .

found some other weird stuff on ebay, basically clay like stuff that you heat up to 65 degrees mold and then it sets to nylon!!! does melt at 65 degrees again but you could make any type of guage pod or Ice install/brakets you wanted.

No problem. Might be worth trying a fiew test pieces first to get the hang of the layup process, it's pretty easy but familiarity helps avoid the niggly little problems like sticky outey fibers that set like needles and shred your skin when you put the next layer on Ouch!

jk

[appletree]

Hi Stuart and others
Matts Dad here not sure how to do a link but the stuff is called Polymorph here is an eBay number for some which is on at the moment 220020856953, looks interesting stuff and not expensive Will buy some soon to experiment with looks like you can make it into sheets with a rolling pin (as long as your not caught) and the mold the sheet whilst still warm. Matts Dad

[stuartgallafant]

well that stuff sounds cooler than a penguins plonker!!!

might have to get me some! do you think it will be any good to help me fabricate a whole inlet plenum chamber out of?

[appletree]

Buy some with an open mind, you never quite know, might be best thing since sliced bread! 65 deg might be a bit low, also with them saying it is bio-degradable in soil I wonder if it will "age" worth a play though:D Matts Dad