Too scared to drift!

[minime1275]

My apologies Minime, i have mistaken you for someone else sorry

No problem

[jmc330i]

If you get too sideways you can slam on the brakes and make them lock up (important that they lock) then you will travel in a straight line in the direction of the momentum you have. So if the back comes around and the car is perpendicular to the road (90 degrees) you can lock the brakes and you will travel stright down the road sideways until you stop.

Thats called cadence braking I think.

Cadence braking is manual ABS. It allows you to brake hard and steer round whatever you were about to hit.

The best, non technical description I found of candence braking is this

If you lock the front wheels under heavy braking, you can no longer steer. ABS (anti-lock braking) automatically keeps the tyres on the point of locking so that you can continue to steer as well as slow down.

If you don't have ABS you can use cadence braking whereby you lock the wheels, then release the brakes so that you can steer, brake again, release and steer again in sequence until you have avoided the hazard. This is particularly useful on slippery roads, but it takes practice and quick thinking to be able to release the brakes when you are sliding towards the hazard.

Not quite on topic, but it could be useful to those who dont have ABS on their E30s.

[Davenotouring]

whereby you lock the wheels, then release the brakes so that you can steer, brake again, release and steer again in sequence until you have avoided the hazard.

I disagree with this to a certain extent!

You shouldn't 'aim' to lock the wheels, as this text seems to suggest!

You should lift off slightly if the wheels lock, to make them start moving again, then put pressure back on, but ideally they won't lock at all, and cadence braking won't be required.

The way that was worded just seemed a bit odd, it's like saying, 'You should lock up, lift off, lock up, lift off etc' which is rubbish!

[jmc330i]

Yeah, I know what your saying Dave.
But for the purpose of explaining the difference between cadence braking and what was written about locking the wheels whilst sliding sideways it seemed to be good enough.

It should say - apply the brakes as hard as you can, then just as the wheels begin to lock you back of slightly then steer, brake hard etc etc

[astondg]

Ok thanks guys, I didn't know what candence braking was. I know what you are describing but I didn't know what it was called, and I didn't know what I was describing was called either.

I think the way that bit you quoted described is how ABS works. I think it actually locks the wheels and then releases them a bit, etc. very quickly. But like you said a human driver should try to get to the point just before lock up.

[320Touring]

ABS actually rapidly applies and removes the brakes to effectively slow the car without locking the brakes

thats why you get the 'pulsing ' effect through the steering wheel when it kicks in.

Its designed to allow you to maintain full steering control in the event of an emergency stop type situ arising.

Cadence braking is kind of the 'Human' version of ABS, where the brake pedal is repeatedly pressed and released to avoid the brakes locking under emergency braking.

It's probably advisable to try cadence braking in a controlled environment, like an empty car park, so you get used to it.

Biggest difficulty is overcoming the instinct to push the pedal harder when the wheels lock.Trick is to practice it so that it becomes second nature!

[astondg]

I have just been doing some research and it seems you are completely correct about ABS, it also allows the wheel to almost lock before slightly releasing the brake. But I am sure I have seen more than one ABS equipped car stopping quickly where at least one of it's wheels will lock for a fraction of a second and then keep rolling again. I have actually just seen it happen on a Fifth Gear episode a couple of weeks ago when Tiff Needel tested ABS in the snow.

I usually feel the pulsing through the brake pedal more than the steering wheel.

Cadence braking is definately a good thing to learn. I have to use it a bit at Autocross (dirt circuit racing).

Aston

[Russ]

I have actually just seen it happen on a Fifth Gear episode a couple of weeks ago when Tiff Needel tested ABS in the snow.

Thats because ABS doesnt really work on snow.

[astondg]

I have seen it on other surfaces too, including bitumen. The Fifth Gear one was just a recent example.

Aston

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Mine is usually controllable but I have an E36 steering rack which would help a bit. I race on a dirt circuit and most of te time it is ok. Sometimes it will go big sideways unexpectedly but that could also be because of the changing dirt surface (it depends if the water truck has been out, or someone has gone off and thrown loose gravel onto the track, etc.).

In normal driving situations I don't usually have a problem. Some good tyres help (I don't know what you have now, just saying that they do). A LSD would give you more grip but it can make it slightly less predictable depending on wether it locks up or not in different situations. An open diff is probably the most predictable but also the first to wheelspin.

Like people have said a skid pan would be good, or a car park but a skid pan is easier on the car because it is usually wet and covered in diesel. Even if you are a good driver a day at a skid pan could get you back to your best. If you haven't been driving a RWD car for a while, or sliding one around, you might just be "out of practice".

Aston

I've had my cab off the road for 6 months, having just got it back on, I also have noticed the huge lock to lock and was thinking about conversion. Was the e36 easy to do? How much did it cost.

It didn't help being in a brand new car for that time, spit a damn new astra sri, ffr.

[320Touring]

I have just been doing some research and it seems you are completely correct about ABS, it also allows the wheel to almost lock before slightly releasing the brake. But I am sure I have seen more than one ABS equipped car stopping quickly where at least one of it's wheels will lock for a fraction of a second and then keep rolling again. I have actually just seen it happen on a Fifth Gear episode a couple of weeks ago when Tiff Needel tested ABS in the snow.

I usually feel the pulsing through the brake pedal more than the steering wheel.

Cadence braking is definately a good thing to learn. I have to use it a bit at Autocross (dirt circuit racing).

Aston

Aston, I havent seen the 5th gear episode you refer to(please post a link to it as i'd like to see it ), but I'm sure that ABS can and does fail-its only a mechanical and electonic system after all.

Possibly the braking that was being done was outwith the operating conditions of the system?!

The snow may have provided a surface with minimal surface traction, thus meaning that there was not enough 'turning force' present to maintain wheel rotation against the force of the pads being applied. Therefore the rate of ABS application was too fast-and was locking the wheel?

I dont doubt you have seen ABS lock-esp if the system has not been maintained correctly!

ABS and traction control etc pi$$ me off as they 'cosset' the driver, lulling them into a false sense of security.

I'd much rather see drivers become competent at handling their cars in all conditions......maybe through the introduction of a 'hazardous conditions' element in the driving test?!

[astondg]

I've had my cab off the road for 6 months, having just got it back on, I also have noticed the huge lock to lock and was thinking about conversion. Was the e36 easy to do? How much did it cost.

It didn't help being in a brand new car for that time, spit a damn new astra sri, ffr.

I didn't do it myself, I got a mechanic to do it. He already had an E36 steering rack sitting in his workshop so he gave it to me cheaper than normal. I can't remember how much it cost (steering rack and fiting), definately under AUD$1000, possibly under AUD$500. I think the main problem for him was getting some new pipes for the power steering fluid. He ended up getting someone to make some up for him. I think the coupling bit on the steering arm (from the steering wheel) was made up from half the E30 part and half the E36. The only problem with mine is that I didn't get the power steering pulley changed so it is way too light (easy to turn and very little feedback). On gravel or a wet road I really can't feel how much grip there is through the steering wheel (front tyres). Great for parking though .

I just found this thread about it http://www.e30zone.co.uk/modules.php?na ... pic&t=6253 and this article http://www.e30zone.co.uk/modules.php?na ... 36rack.htm

About Fifth Gear:
The top gear episode can be dowloaded, using a BitTorrent program (Google if you don't know), from http://www.finalgear.com/ . March 28th is the one with the ABS in snow, the link is on the main page.

About the ABS:
Please note that when I said the wheels locked it was only for a fraction of a second and then they unlocked and kept rolling. But it did happen more than once in the 1 stop.

Yes you are probably right about the operating conditions or maybe it just plain made a mistake. Another place I remember seeing it happen is when Tiff Needel first reviewed the E46 M3. That was on bitumen but like you said it can't stop wheels locking 100% of the time.

I agree about the driver aids, although if I had 400hp+ I might like some sort of traction control for when I am not feeling like concentrating 100% on my driving and I don't want to end up in a tree.

Aston

[psychochild187]

wen i was 18 i drove a bad car , with bad tires and it was tail happy if i drove fast round corners and i knew this , thats how i learnt to go sidways in it i did gravel car parks and grass. none of this cruzin stuff , i was worried about cost of tires . so i only did wet! and my car was under powed . a spin on a wet rounderbout at almost 30 at 2 in the morning out of town ,was in my eyes not a bad way of doing things . i spun loads of times but i done some long smooth ones too .

but ive always read the road , and thats wat scares me about the e30 i love how on the limit it can feel . its a dangerous car in the wrong hands !
now i dont do dry drifting as i cant afford tires still, and oh my god these cars bite in the dry i broke a nail punching the side window tying to catch a fish tail in the dry on manual steering and slipy diff.
i was doing a nice rounderbout the other night and i done a wheel , as in i hit a curb , i didnt spin but i bailed as i couldnt keep it sidways anylonger and aimed for a exit and i lost control and hit the curb at about 5mph and buggered my wheel , i ve now learnt the bmw lsd isnt amazing in the dry with proxie t1 -s as theve got to much grip!

the problem is learning shear speed u can get caught out. its good all this wet stuff .
if you want tricky get manual steering , non -lsd, dry wether and ad some speed. a deadly mix .
wen you fish tail in the dry its sooo fast its unreal and it takes a good driver to do.
i cant do it as the roads dont have the space.

abs isnt in my car and if it was i wouldnt use it . ive never had it. i do the manual stuff . come off a slip road in the wet with no one behind and brake hard and try not to lock . its the best way i thought . ad some speed and it shows u how well it works as a carpark woulnd have the space but try the same slip road and lock the wheels , ull go for miles !

i want to do some driff events to learn as i no nothing about geting back a fish tail , i drive in thought of this .

in my audi 90 u could turn the abs off in the manual it said to do so in gravel and snow as it dosnt work well, and you brake better if the gravel/snow builds up in front of the locked wheel!

oh btw i talk rubbish alot so dont listen to me!

[320Touring]

Thanks for the link for 5th gear!

with regards to the 400bhp without traction control, when you cant be bothered driving at 100% concentration....

dude, whether you're driving an M5 or a robin reliant-you gotta be 100% concentrating!!!!!!!!!

if you cant be arsed concentrating get the bus

psychochild187-good to see a dude actually figuring out limits with as little disruption to others as possible! not too sure about the slip-road technique esp as most sliproads come down to junctions/roundabouts!

can just see you sailing through the red lights

[Martinaston]

On my first E30 a long time ago before the E36 was even invented to overcome the lock to lock problem i used a handle on the steering wheel the same as on some lorry's and disabled drivers cars.

As for the Fifth gear video if it's the one i'm thinking of and he's in the blue Jag when the front right locks thats because he over corrected the steering to the left as the tail was already sliding back to the right and the traction control is trying to slow the swing by appling more brake to that corner

[psychochild187]

lol my slip road technic sounds a little dodge yeah .
but i pick them right . lol
hey if ur lucky thell have the grit skid stuff at the end just incase. just dont leave it at the last minute.

[astondg]

Thanks for the link for 5th gear!

with regards to the 400bhp without traction control, when you cant be bothered driving at 100% concentration....

dude, whether you're driving an M5 or a robin reliant-you gotta be 100% concentrating!!!!!!!!!

if you cant be arsed concentrating get the bus

psychochild187-good to see a dude actually figuring out limits with as little disruption to others as possible! not too sure about the slip-road technique esp as most sliproads come down to junctions/roundabouts!

can just see you sailing through the red lights

What I meant was concentrating 100% on car control. For example on the road I probably only concentrate about 50% on car control and use the other 50% for watching for traffic and red lights etc. like you said. But with 400hp if it rained or if there was a slight slippery patch I would have to concentrate 100% on car control and that is when I would go through a red light or into another car . Or I might not go from 50% to 100% quick enough and end uphitting something.

I concentrate 100% on the race track and after about 25 laps (probably less on the dirt) I am getting mentally tired so if I concentrated that hard on public roads I could only drive for 30mins and then I'd have to take a break. I don't think anyone concentrates that hard all the time when they drive on public roads, it usually isn't necessary.

I am not a proffesional race driver and even Tiff Needel (who is) has said that he doesn't want to concentrate 100% all the time.

Depends on the car too, I was thinking some lighter with 400hp, possibly something like the Noble (actually I just checked and a Noble M12 has about 350hp). A heavier car would probably handle 400hp better.

Aston

[320Touring]

Aston man, chill! was just kidding you

I'm well aware that you're a responsible driver and have plenty of circuit experience compared to me!

no offence meant