can this be possible 2.7 with 280 bhp

[kam-325i]

He's giving out estimates of Hp figures, but has "Dino" print outs of between 250-280Bhp ??????

[Davenotouring]

Dino, the last dinosaur? He's our friend and a whole lot more.

[billgatese30]

Dino, the last dinosaur? He's our friend and a whole lot more.

fred flintstone always seemed to love him

[reggid]

what did the m20 2.5 race engines make?
Peak hp is such a poor indication of performance on a street car anyway!

[reggid]

emailed the dude and this was the reply............

"we have built a lot of these engines in the past the ave dino print out is between 250 bhp th 280 bhp and it does idle with no problems
hp estimation
1. 2700 conv 200 bhp approx
2. ported and gas flowed head 20 approx
2. cam 20bhp approx
3. six beanch vmanifold 20bhp approx
3. chip 10 bhp (power chips)
3 3.5 535i injectors with rail 10 bhp approx
i realize that it isnt totally accurate but you must agree they wont be far out
ray"

its good to know that mods add up using straight mathematical addition

[Turbo-Brown]

indeed, injectors renound for giving an extra 10bhp

[M5pilot]

Maybe if I put my Wife's Polo on their "Dino" it will make 200bhp.

[Toby_Unna]

i shouldn't think an eta crank would be too happy at 8.5k for long

[keri-WMS]

A good clue is him counting to three: "1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3"!!!!!

General points I can see, bearing in mind I don't know BWM engines inside out....


1. 2700 conv 200 bhp approx ...hmmmmmm.
2. ported and gas flowed head 20 approx .....try, "f/a more power, but might rev more as a result.
2. cam 20bhp approx ...possible, mainly by adding revs.
3. six beanch vmanifold 20bhp approx ...er, add 4-8bhp more like.
3. chip 10 bhp (power chips) ...not applicable at the levels he's claiming.
3 3.5 535i injectors with rail 10 bhp approx ...again, just "supports" more power, doesn't CREATE it!

i realize that it isnt totally accurate but you must agree they wont be far out
ray"


So the cam, headwork and exhaust might add 24-28bhp if the bottom end was happy to rev more, but a long-stroke crank lowers the amount an engine can rev! If "eta" means aftermarket steel bits then that's different as they can take more abuse - but I get the impression eta are just bits from another BMW engine? Of course if the capacity has been upped from 2.5 to 2.7 that adds about 8% to whatever power figure everything else gives you.

So where are the other basics:
- Lightened and balanced crank, rods and flywheel?
- Forged pistons to stop it going bang?
- Free flowing inlet (not a lot of point flowing a head with a std inlet!!!)?
- Bigger valves to make use of the cam's extra lift?

--------

The ebay listing doesn't seem to say what engine it's based on - other than it uses "2.5 pistons"! If I had to get a silly amount of power from a "2.7 12v BMW engine" for a race series for example I'd start with the 3.5, bore it out as much as possible, use big custom forged (very high compression) pistons then get a steel short throw crank and steel (possibly shorter) rods to bring the capacity back down to 2.7L. Then depending on rod choice you might need to take a LOT off the block like the ebay engine - possibly leaving the pistons protruding into the head gasket thickness to get the best possible "squish" and limit detonation at the rings. The bottom end will also need a lightened and balanced flywheel, might as well be steel. Run a high pressure and flow rate oil pump, plus an external electric water pump plus of course tough bearing shells etc. Also a dry sump and enlarged oil return galleries to limit the oil dragging the internals.

That gives you an oversquare and high rev-happy bottom end, the next thing needed is the head: high revving cam, big valves (less shrouding as bore is increased), sidedraft throttle bodies with proper ram-pipes and free flowing exhaust. Then flow and port-match (but NOT "POLISH"!!!!) the head, gaskets, inlet and exhaust manifolds as "one unit".

Fueling and ignition via a fully programmable ECU, put the injectors in the centre of the "mouths" of the intake ram pipes to get decent atomisation at high revs. Maybe run a second switching bank in the head/manifold to get it drivable at low revs, pain to set up though.

That should get you pretty much to the limit (all based on THEORY), or at least to where the "art" takes over! ie the skill of the guy doing the ECU setup/rolling road, the skill of the guy doing the port work etc etc.... This kind of engine would cost a fortune and probably need regular rebuilds - and could do with running on AvGas etc!

[Demlotcrew]

Agreed with everything except that a ported and flowed head will gain good power!

The engine will gain HP top end. (which will rais the peak)

Andrew

[keri-WMS]

Agreed with everything except that a ported and flowed head will gain good power!

The engine will gain HP top end. (which will rais the peak)

Andrew

Flowing the head but not doing anything else vary rarely gives you more power, it just reduces the throttle response/low revs grunt. It IS however one of the things that helps the engine rev more, and it's the revs that create the extra power, not the head....

It's one of the three areas that can be improved, but to make a differnce they all need doing at once (inlet -> head -> exhaust) otherwise the engine pretty much stays limited by the worst flowing part.

So, get all three right = the engine can rev higher due to reduced air drag = more bangs per second = more bhp. BUT do this to a standard bottom end and it'll shake itself to bits, everything is interconnected!

[Andyboy]

For a start, an M20 running a cam much more than 300 degrees is going to have serious problems passing an MOT. The hydrocarbons would be though the roof and it would idle like a hog. A mate of mine has just had to swap his for a 276 on his 2.7 Touring for this very reason. The cam this clown states it has would not pass an MOT, simple as.

280 bhp - never, ever in a million years, not even on throttle bodies. Not with only two valves per cylinder. The poor thing could never get enough fuel and air in to generate over 100 bhp per litre on normal fuels and be road useable.

An Eta crank would not survive 7000 rpm for long never mind 8500. It's modular 'grey' cast iron and it is didn't twist along the centreline it would shatter. The rods wouldn't last that sort of RPM either, nor the rod bolts. The rockers would break at anything much over 7000. Claiming that some old M20 can generate as much power as a 3 litre M3 engine is just fantasy but as they say, bullshit baffles brains!

[DJ_B4L]

yeh so basically the guys just dreaming a bit too much about the power figures

so i take it the engine wont idle properly with whats been done to it and wont last that long

what a misleading description when the engine hasnt even been built yet

[Gouki]

i was having a lil read up and can't find anywhere where an M20 engine has been tuned to 280bhp! Even the most expensive stroker kits in the US only give 240bhp! As Andy pointed out, which is the main reason not to get it is the engine aint finished yet!

[gasgas]

Take a look at this guys feedback, i wouldn't trust these figures hes quoting!

[AndyTouring]

Agreed with everything except that a ported and flowed head will gain good power!

The engine will gain HP top end. (which will rais the peak)

A ported head will only increase power if a significant gain in flow can be made i.e. the original ports are restricted.

Back in the days of the BMC A-series engine (as used in the Mini) the original porting was so poor your granny could make a better job with a hand file. However, more modern engines are far more efficient & production tolerances much closer so the gains are considerably less.

A wilder cam will give more power if the valves are big enough to flow more air but again, it just moves the power further up the rev range.

If these nutters are so daft as to think they'll get any where near those power levels then they aren't smart enough to build an engine. Go else where.

[fuzzy]

i sent him a link to this thread to show the general thoughts on his power claims

[Turbo-Brown]

Doubt he'll care dude, if someone's not in the know, they'll buy it and then brag to all their mates about it who, will almost certainly also not be in the know.

The thing'll never get tested either.

[E30Adam]

The M20 is a poor engine to tune. It's hard to extract good power. It's a very expensive game.

What a fcuking loser.

[fuzzy]

i spoke to someone with an e30 2 door a couple of weeks ago when i was at knockhill racing circuit,he claimed his 325 was running about "310 bhp" with internal engine work but no turbo he was an older guy who youd have thought had more sense

[Turbo-Brown]

When I had a problem at that photo shoot, the AA guy who came out said (having seen the engine and obviously extensive mods) that he had one hand had tuned it to........"er 235bhp"

"impressive" said I.

I mean, I can understand trying it on with some Saxo owning pleb, but when you're talking to someone who made six throttles and bolted them to their own twin turbo conversion, why would you lie?!

[uniquecarservice]

Hi my name is Ray from Unique car services
The engine we have put on ebay hasnt been claimed at 280 bhp but with 250 bhp the 280 bhp is mistake.
However I will say that the manufacturers do state
Cam will give you 10 to 20 bhp
Port polished head will give you 15bhp
27 convertion will give you 190bhp
When you add the eta crank, eta conrods, 325i pistons and deck the block to meet the original 325i piston to block level you will find the engine will produce 198 bhp we had 200 in the past.
Six branch manifold to increase the flow manufacturers do insist on 20bhp boost using free flow exhaust arque the point with them with them

In the past when using a diesel crank remachined we got over 290 bhp

[d6dph]

Woohoo, This is gonna get fun.

I'm just subscribing to this thread btw, I have no helpfull input

[Jhonno]

Diesel crank will not give you any more power than an eta on its own, its just stronger..

290bhp from an 2v with 2700cc PMSL!! Thats over 100% volumetric efficiency without forced induction.. Oh dear! the 3.0 M3 lump with individual tb's and 4v head makes that

[buster]

Why did i spank £2500 on an s50 when i could have had one of those !!

[m-dtech]

Hi my name is Ray from Unique car services
The engine we have put on ebay hasnt been claimed at 280 bhp but with 250 bhp the 280 bhp is mistake.
However I will say that the manufacturers do state
Cam will give you 10 to 20 bhp
Port polished head will give you 15bhp
27 convertion will give you 190bhp
When you add the eta crank, eta conrods, 325i pistons and deck the block to meet the original 325i piston to block level you will find the engine will produce 198 bhp we had 200 in the past.
Six branch manifold to increase the flow manufacturers do insist on 20bhp boost using free flow exhaust arque the point with them with them

In the past when using a diesel crank remachined we got over 290 bhp

untill you can show some rolling road print outs, stop talking utter shite and learn how to spell ![/b]

[buster]

Hi my name is Ray from Unique car services
The engine we have put on ebay hasnt been claimed at 280 bhp but with 250 bhp the 280 bhp is mistake.
However I will say that the manufacturers do state
Cam will give you 10 to 20 bhp
Port polished head will give you 15bhp
27 convertion will give you 190bhp
When you add the eta crank, eta conrods, 325i pistons and deck the block to meet the original 325i piston to block level you will find the engine will produce 198 bhp we had 200 in the past.
Six branch manifold to increase the flow manufacturers do insist on 20bhp boost using free flow exhaust arque the point with them with them

In the past when using a diesel crank remachined we got over 290 bhp

untill you can show some rolling road print outs, stop talking utter shite and learn how to spell ![/b]

thats a bit harsh mate
And whats wrong with his spelling ?

[keri-WMS]

C'mon, let keep it nice lads!

As a general note, the venerable 2v/cyl Ford Pinto (Capri etc) can be tuned to over 100bhp/L - Harris 2.2's make 225-230bhp, this is an all-steel £10k+ animal though.

I just found this by the way: http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/1 ... _sale.html - has "193bhp at the wheels" which is a nice 2.5 reference....? No dyno sheet to prove it though.

Hi my name is Ray from Unique car services
The engine we have put on ebay hasnt been claimed at 280 bhp but with 250 bhp the 280 bhp is mistake.
However I will say that the manufacturers do state
Cam will give you 10 to 20 bhp
Port polished head will give you 15bhp
27 convertion will give you 190bhp
When you add the eta crank, eta conrods, 325i pistons and deck the block to meet the original 325i piston to block level you will find the engine will produce 198 bhp we had 200 in the past.
Six branch manifold to increase the flow manufacturers do insist on 20bhp boost using free flow exhaust arque the point with them with them

In the past when using a diesel crank remachined we got over 290 bhp

So lets have a look at this - the easiest one is the 2.5 -> 2.7 gain, if a 2.5 has 171bhp (correct?) devide by 2,500 (cc), multiply by 2,700 = 184.7bhp in theory. Capacity is a MULTIPLYING effect though so it needs to be done more like:

Conservatively (as aftermarket tuning part mfr power gains tend to be a bit enthusiastic):

171 + 10 (cam) + 15 (headwork and exhaust) = 196 in a tuned 2.5
...then go to 2.7 = (196 / 2,500) x 2,700 = 211.7bhp as a Guestimate, 35bhp shy of that 250bhp.

Ray, what was the full spec on the 290bhp+ d-crank engine? Do you have any photos or dyno plots?

[Turbo-Brown]

Be nice to see a proper engine dyno plot, not a rolling road work back to a flywheel power figure.

I'd say that the standard inlet manifold would be the first thing that would prevent you getting anywhere near that power level, although I stand to be proven wrong.

[Jhonno]

I'd say that the standard inlet manifold would be the first thing that would prevent you getting anywhere near that power level, although I stand to be proven wrong.

Wouldnt hold your breath on that one..

[E30BeemerLad]

OK so I'm an armchair hero when it comes to mechanical knowledge and tuning engines etc, but even I know you can't just add together the alleged manufacturers claims on each individual item to end up at your claimed BHP.

Unless you get one of thos £15 ebay chips, devastating increase in power , the way to go my friend

[Kos]

wont comment on the e-bay engine but i think it would be possible to get 90 hp per litre out of an M20, but it will be expensive !

i had an xr2 years back, 1.6 cvh and that put out 145bhp on 4 star, but the it was near race spec , and running twin 40's, so if cvh can get 90hp per litre i'm sure an m20 could

[Simon13]

The M20 is a poor engine to tune. It's hard to extract good power. It's a very expensive game.

What a ******* loser.

ditto this whole forum have forgotten this!

a full race spec M20 will make around 250bhp

The M20 head is all about economy, as is the standard cam, they respond nicely to some headwork

Alpina/Hartge/RD didn't get 210bhp out of their 2.7's for no reason! Polished inlet,bbtb,headwork, 6 branch. It's all about getting more air in and out quicker!

To get a proper 220bhp 2.7 you need to spend serious money. To get a 200bhp 2.7 you still need to spend a few grand.

[Turbo-Brown]

Scot's car manages over 90bhp/litre, and as I said in a previous thread, his car has some of the absolute prerequisites of a powerful N/A engine which include mappable engine management and throttle/cylinder induction.

This engine on e-bay features neither of these things so to say I'm sceptical is an understatement.

As I say though, I stand to be proved wrong.

[E30Adam]

Hi my name is Ray from Unique car services
The engine we have put on ebay hasnt been claimed at 280 bhp but with 250 bhp the 280 bhp is mistake.
However I will say that the manufacturers do state
Cam will give you 10 to 20 bhp
Port polished head will give you 15bhp
27 convertion will give you 190bhp
When you add the eta crank, eta conrods, 325i pistons and deck the block to meet the original 325i piston to block level you will find the engine will produce 198 bhp we had 200 in the past.
Six branch manifold to increase the flow manufacturers do insist on 20bhp boost using free flow exhaust arque the point with them with them

In the past when using a diesel crank remachined we got over 290 bhp

It's not as simple as just adding manufacturers "quoted" power figures together. Sometimes, one mod will cancel out or reduce the improvement of another mod. It's all about finding a balance and what mods work to compliment each other.

As has been previously stated, the diesel crank is just stronger and does not add any power.

If you believe what you're stating above is true then you should go and speak to the BMW engine design team and let them know where they're going wrong. I'm sure with your methods they'd benefit immensely.