I was talking to a guy at the ring last week who competes three E30's as well as being paid to drive 997GT3's and alike round the world. Lucky man.......
Anyway I was picking his brains for info on his E30's. He tells me that he doesn't bother fitting a quick rack to his race cars he simply removes the heavy power steering parts from the standard set up and runs it as a manual. He did quote the weight saving which I forget but it was good. He suggested that the steering feel on track was perfect, it was however a pig to park.
Now although this sounded a little screwy to me, this guy appears to know what he was doing. He has built loads of E30 racers
Anyone tried this?
Gary
Quick rack 'V' removing PS
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MartyMcfly
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Removing the PAS pump gives you a much better feel and makes the car easier to control/drive IMO. I raced with PAS on and off this year and I would 100% recommend removing it for track work. It is obviously heavier at low speeds and parking etc but is not undriveable.
I am currently preparing my E30 for track work and was considering doing a similar thing.
Would it perhaps be better to fit a manual steering rack, or would I acheive the same by just removing the pump from my existing setup???
Any comments appreciated.
Would it perhaps be better to fit a manual steering rack, or would I acheive the same by just removing the pump from my existing setup???
Any comments appreciated.
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JimmyC
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Mine has a manual rack from the factory, I think you get a slightly better ratio from the PAS rack though??
So i'd proberly just remove the PAS and re plumb, I think all the PBMW cars run like that with no problems
So i'd proberly just remove the PAS and re plumb, I think all the PBMW cars run like that with no problems
JimmyC wrote:Mine has a manual rack from the factory, I think you get a slightly better ratio from the PAS rack though??
So i'd proberly just remove the PAS and re plumb, I think all the PBMW cars run like that with no problems
Yes, you're quite right, PAS is a slightly better ratio. Thanks.
What precisely is involved in "re-plumbing", as you put it??
recieved this reply elsewhere ........
You can't run a power steered rack as a manual, or rather you could but it's a very bad idea.
Without going into a long winded explanation of how power steering works, as I'm off to the ring in about 30 minutes..., you'll be running on a very soft initial stiffness of the valve as there will be no hydraulic pressure, the T-Bar could even eventually break and then you won't have any steering at all...
You can't run a power steered rack as a manual, or rather you could but it's a very bad idea.
Without going into a long winded explanation of how power steering works, as I'm off to the ring in about 30 minutes..., you'll be running on a very soft initial stiffness of the valve as there will be no hydraulic pressure, the T-Bar could even eventually break and then you won't have any steering at all...
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MartyMcfly
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All that I did on mine was to remove the PAS Pump and associated pipes. Then cut the pipes on the rack and either cap them or crimp the ends closed. Its a lazy/bodget and scarper way of doing it, howver it works fine.
Most of the guys racing in the series did excatly the same thing. Deffinately keep the PAS rack as Jimmy said it has a better ratio than the standard rack.
Most of the guys racing in the series did excatly the same thing. Deffinately keep the PAS rack as Jimmy said it has a better ratio than the standard rack.
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MartyMcfly
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Not wishing to tempt fate here but a very large % of racers are running a PAS rack with no pump and to date I dont know of any issues realting to this modification. Hope this helps ?northloop wrote:recieved this reply elsewhere ........
You can't run a power steered rack as a manual, or rather you could but it's a very bad idea.
Without going into a long winded explanation of how power steering works, as I'm off to the ring in about 30 minutes..., you'll be running on a very soft initial stiffness of the valve as there will be no hydraulic pressure, the T-Bar could even eventually break and then you won't have any steering at all...
Mines a left-hooker with a factory manual rack and it's crap. Heavy at parking, too light at speed and about a dozen turns lock to lock!
Previous e30 was powered which i converted to manual when the pump packed up. Now that was much better, no heavier at parking than the factory manual rack but much better at speed - more weight and feel.
Actually thinking of converting current car to PAS and fitting an e30 m3 rack due to the higher ratio.
Northloop, you say you were at the ring a week ago - what was the weather like up there? Didn't realise it was open this time of year.
Previous e30 was powered which i converted to manual when the pump packed up. Now that was much better, no heavier at parking than the factory manual rack but much better at speed - more weight and feel.
Actually thinking of converting current car to PAS and fitting an e30 m3 rack due to the higher ratio.
Northloop, you say you were at the ring a week ago - what was the weather like up there? Didn't realise it was open this time of year.
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JimmyC
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Agree with Rob, e30 racers in our series have been running like that since 2003/4 with no failures or problems that I know ofMartyMcfly wrote:Not wishing to tempt fate here but a very large % of racers are running a PAS rack with no pump and to date I dont know of any issues realting to this modification. Hope this helps ?northloop wrote:recieved this reply elsewhere ........
You can't run a power steered rack as a manual, or rather you could but it's a very bad idea.
Without going into a long winded explanation of how power steering works, as I'm off to the ring in about 30 minutes..., you'll be running on a very soft initial stiffness of the valve as there will be no hydraulic pressure, the T-Bar could even eventually break and then you won't have any steering at all...
I was there from 28th Dec - 2nd Jan. The weather was fecking cold and fecking icy. The track pretty much wasn't open but I managed 6 laps on NYD when the ice melted. Friends were putting in a few laps yesterday too. The snow will be there soon thoughchrisr29 wrote:
Northloop, you say you were at the ring a week ago - what was the weather like up there? Didn't realise it was open this time of year.
Gary
I went there at Easter a few years ago and it was shut due to snow! Went there last May and it was snowing at the begining of a lap and sunny at the end of it....the place is crazy!northloop wrote:I was there from 28th Dec - 2nd Jan. The weather was fecking cold and fecking icy. The track pretty much wasn't open but I managed 6 laps on NYD when the ice melted. Friends were putting in a few laps yesterday too. The snow will be there soon thoughchrisr29 wrote:
Northloop, you say you were at the ring a week ago - what was the weather like up there? Didn't realise it was open this time of year.
Gary
I believe standard E46 rack is only 3 turns lock to lock...oldbimmer wrote:schuey wrote:Put a quick rack on,its easy!
How easy??? Do you mean an E36 rack???
Get the NON M3 one...
Currently slumming it in an E46 Touring
This was posted as a reply to the question on the northloop site....
Power steering obviously has assistance from hydraulic pressure pushing on a piston attached to the rack bar, that's why the steering is lighter. The way this assistance is controlled is in the valve. What it has is a thin bit of metal effectively attached to the end of the column known as the torsion bar, or T-Bar. This is designed to twist as you turn the wheel and in doing so it opens up various orifices which allows hydraulic fluid to flow. This is the clever bit in power steering as controlling these edges and openings is what aids the 'feel'. Anyway, as you can imagine the more force needed to turn the wheel the more the T-Bar twists and so the more assistance you get, the T-Bar normally twists the most at parking when the steering is heaviest.
Now imagine you have removed the hydraulic part, all you'll be left with is a very soft T-Bar with no assistance, so you will be continually winding this up until it hits its stops. All will be designed to have some durability with no hydraulics which is why they have stops but won't be designed to run permanently in this condition....hence an MOT failure.
To add some numbers to the equation a typical colum stiffness is about 10 Nm/deg, which is quite stiff. A typical T-Bar stiffness is about 1.75 Nm/deg, obviously quite soft. Now join the two in series and you'll have 1.5 Nm/deg which is 15% of the stiffness of what a manual rack would be (as it doesn't have a torsion bar!).
The best way to feel this is with the engine off and then try steering the wheel, you'll notice a very soft initial stiffness and then it will be bloody heavy. This can be done on any hydraulic power steered car.
Power steering obviously has assistance from hydraulic pressure pushing on a piston attached to the rack bar, that's why the steering is lighter. The way this assistance is controlled is in the valve. What it has is a thin bit of metal effectively attached to the end of the column known as the torsion bar, or T-Bar. This is designed to twist as you turn the wheel and in doing so it opens up various orifices which allows hydraulic fluid to flow. This is the clever bit in power steering as controlling these edges and openings is what aids the 'feel'. Anyway, as you can imagine the more force needed to turn the wheel the more the T-Bar twists and so the more assistance you get, the T-Bar normally twists the most at parking when the steering is heaviest.
Now imagine you have removed the hydraulic part, all you'll be left with is a very soft T-Bar with no assistance, so you will be continually winding this up until it hits its stops. All will be designed to have some durability with no hydraulics which is why they have stops but won't be designed to run permanently in this condition....hence an MOT failure.
To add some numbers to the equation a typical colum stiffness is about 10 Nm/deg, which is quite stiff. A typical T-Bar stiffness is about 1.75 Nm/deg, obviously quite soft. Now join the two in series and you'll have 1.5 Nm/deg which is 15% of the stiffness of what a manual rack would be (as it doesn't have a torsion bar!).
The best way to feel this is with the engine off and then try steering the wheel, you'll notice a very soft initial stiffness and then it will be bloody heavy. This can be done on any hydraulic power steered car.
I meant Z3 rack 2.6 turns,this is how:oldbimmer wrote:schuey wrote:Put a quick rack on,its easy!
How easy??? Do you mean an E36 rack???
http://www.e30zone.co.uk/modules.php?na ... ic&t=45398
318 IS. Sold.
Yeah, I recognise that car, was behind you coming out of the car park at one point.....I'll keep an eye out for you next time I'm up there, though prob wont be till May.northloop wrote:I spoke to you guys, infact I took some pics and sent them to some of you. James wheeler was one I think?
I was in this
my old E30 never ran PAS, simply didn't need it, it was perfectly fine without and it does have alot more feel than the assisted racks, i've also been told that running a PAS rack without the PAS is a no no on track
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