S50B32 Supercharging

[323i_rare]

How much £Â£ for 440 bhp or so

[Turbo-Brown]

You looking for a kit or to build something yourself?

Will have a big influence on the price!

[323i_rare]

Just the man I wanted, or the guy with the turbo e30 cosworth.

Well the thing is I don't know of ANY supercharger kit that exists for this engine, although I have just sent some emails off to several internation companies; but in general they want big bucks $8000 = £4200. The US engine version has a lower compression ratio, but the euro is like 11.3. I know you can get 99 octane shell vpower, but am worried about detonation at high RPM's.

It doesn't sound too difficult to build something myself, but I would need your help for a few Q's here and there. I was going to go with ASA Infinitas centrifugal supercharger and run it at 6 psi to start with, due to the stock internals. I can always upgrade to 7 psi with a smaller cog I know.

I would use a twin screw supercharger, but I don't think this type is available with this engine?? is it to do with the 6 individual throttle bodies?

Also, I would definately use an intercooler. My biggest three wories are:

1. Custom brackets for the supercharger and intercooler and various other parts.
2. What to do with fuel management / remapping of the ECU afterwards?
3. Fitting it all together properly.

[maxfield]

you dont want to be strappnig a supercharger without lowering compression

[Turbo-Brown]

You can run the throttles downstream of the charger if you use a positive displacement type (usually the throttle is before the charger with positive displacement types), you just need some valves to let the pressure out when the throttles are shut, and to help prevent the belt loading up excessively it'd be a good idea whichever type of charger you use.

Think you can get magnetic clutches to decouple the charger too which might help.

Have a look at Lentec's setup for a throttle downstream system.

You'd need to have a look at which chargers can supply enough air for the engine. Some students (Australian I think) did some flow tests on the S50B32 and found it's VE went to 102% at around 6000rpm (pretty sure of the 102% but the revs will be a bit out, my memory eh?) all of which means it can consume upwards of a colossal 9792litres of air a minute, and that's without any forced induction.

Think you're right to be concerned about the compression ratio. Personally don't like the idea of super thick head gaskets or decompression plates but can understand that people don't necessarily wanna get the pistons machined or have low comp ones made. If you do get the pistons machined, please don't just have the whole top skimmed off, it'll have just the same effect as a decomp plate in that the squish band will be reduced.

Engine management's a good one.

Once upon a time I bought a pair of turbos from a Skyline to attach to my S50B32 and then started thinking about engine management. You've got a few affordable options which will lose the VANOS, or some mega expensive ones which will keep it such as Pectel which cost about £2k! I bought an OMEX 700 ecu in the end which the guy at OMEX faithfully promised me could control dual VANOS.....but I've yet to finish the car and it's still some way off!

There's not a chance in hell I'd entrust the standard engine management to the task of dealing with positive manifold pressure so if I was gonna consider it again, I'd probably settle for something which ditches the VANOS but can deal with coil on plug ignition, injection and manifold pressure signals. However, that's just me as I' a luddite and don't understand electronicy things but the standard system surely can't have enough adjustment to apply fueling and sparking for an additional 35%+ of air that'll be going in on 5psi!

Brackets are just something you'll need to deal with, although I guess this is going into an E30 so you can lose the air pump and air-con compressor on the drivers side of the block and fit something there no doubt

[323i_rare]

You can run the throttles downstream of the charger if you use a positive displacement type (usually the throttle is before the charger with positive displacement types), you just need some valves to let the pressure out when the throttles are shut, and to help prevent the belt loading up excessively it'd be a good idea whichever type of charger you use.

not sure what that means. downstream of the charger means after the supercharger yeah? I think this supercharger operates on a clutch that cuts it out at 1000rpm i.e. idle

Think you can get magnetic clutches to decouple the charger too which might help.

Have a look at Lentec's setup for a throttle downstream system.

You'd need to have a look at which chargers can supply enough air for the engine. Some students (Australian I think) did some flow tests on the S50B32 and found it's VE went to 102% at around 6000rpm (pretty sure of the 102% but the revs will be a bit out, my memory eh?) all of which means it can consume upwards of a colossal 9792litres of air a minute, and that's without any forced induction.

The T20 version is Developed for maximum air mass stream of up to
2.000 kg/h

Think you're right to be concerned about the compression ratio. Personally don't like the idea of super thick head gaskets or decompression plates but can understand that people don't necessarily wanna get the pistons machined or have low comp ones made. If you do get the pistons machined, please don't just have the whole top skimmed off, it'll have just the same effect as a decomp plate in that the squish band will be reduced.

Would this put additional stress on the conrods, by adding a supercharger but reving to the same rpms?

Engine management's a good one.

Once upon a time I bought a pair of turbos from a Skyline to attach to my S50B32 and then started thinking about engine management. You've got a few affordable options which will lose the VANOS, or some mega expensive ones which will keep it such as Pectel which cost about £2k! I bought an OMEX 700 ecu in the end which the guy at OMEX faithfully promised me could control dual VANOS.....but I've yet to finish the car and it's still some way off!

could a custom remap fix the problem, I don't like the idea of losing the vanos as I would like some fuel economy

There's not a chance in hell I'd entrust the standard engine management to the task of dealing with positive manifold pressure so if I was gonna consider it again, I'd probably settle for something which ditches the VANOS but can deal with coil on plug ignition, injection and manifold pressure signals. However, that's just me as I' a luddite and don't understand electronicy things but the standard system surely can't have enough adjustment to apply fueling and sparking for an additional 35%+ of air that'll be going in on 5psi!

Brackets are just something you'll need to deal with, although I guess this is going into an E30 so you can lose the air pump and air-con compressor on the drivers side of the block and fit something there no doubt

[Gunni]

check out da-motorsports they have a SC kit and also a turbo kit,
they could probably supply you with the parts individually if you want,
but you will want a standalone, also available from them and so on

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Turbo Brown- I would get it in writing and dated that the OMEX 700
can control BMW dual Vanos.
If not then get your money back.

www.ca-automotive.co.uk offer super chargers for the S50B32,
around 7K plus, quite extensive, but then for that money would
want to be !!!

I think you will run into many issues with Supercharging the S50B32
all of which will be expensive and frustrating to resolve.

Do not let me put you off, but make sure your wallet is well full
before commencing.
There is no such thing as cheap true horsepower.

The S50B32 made around 300-310 out of the box, very few ever get
anywhere near the 321 BHP as claimed.
So by yanking it up from say 310 to 440 by using a Supercahrger, will
require, major internal specs, if its to work and last for any length of
time.
You will need to spend at least 500-700 for all the stretch bolts,
thats just for starters, then throw another 600 for upgraded
injectors, and you have not touched it yet.
As a measure, I would budget for around 5- 7.5k min, and if that is
not in the budget then I would not start it.

I personally think that 10K would get swallowed easily on a project
like this.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Gunni]

You do NOT need to do anything about the internals so it´s noted,
Also note that the below kits all cost quite the bundle of money

G-POWER compressor kit - EVO I - plus 84 hp
M3 3.0l, 370hp (272kW) / 400Nm at 3950 r.p.m
consisting of G21 compressor with MD bearing and freewheel clutch, CNC supercharger bracket system for longer belt take-up, G21 compressor oil system, G-POWER stream-optimized water intercooler (G-POWER AL-Airbox) with big water-to-air heat exchanger and pump, suction are temperature protected —a outside engine compartment, G-POWER sport air filter, additional control system G-Tronic, G-POWER fuel control system, G-POWER FEEDBACK bypass valve system I, G-POWER CARBON protection cover, including additional warranty insurance




G-POWER compressor kit M3 - EVO I 3,2K - plus 64 hp
M3 3.2l, 385hp (283kW) / 430Nm at 3950 r.p.m
consisting of G21 compressor with MD bearing and freewheel clutch, CNC supercharger bracket system for longer belt take-up, G21 compressor oil system, G-POWER stream-optimized water intercooler (G-POWER AL-Airbox) with big water-to-air heat exchanger and pump, suction are temperature protected —a outside engine compartment, G-POWER sport air filter, additional control system G-Tronic, G-POWER fuel control system, G-POWER FEEDBACK bypass valve system I, G-POWER CARBON protection cover, including additional warranty insurance




G-POWER compressor kit - EVO II incl. modified G-POWER engine - plus 174 hp
M3 3.0l, 476hp (338kW) / 470Nm at 3950 r.p.m
consisting of G22 compressor with HD bearing and freewheel clutch, CNC supercharger bracket system for longer belt take-up, G22 compressor oil system, G-POWER stream-optimized water intercooler (G-POWER AL airbox) with big air-to-water heat exchanger I and pump, suction area temperature protected —a outside engine compartment, G-POWER sport air filter, additional control system G-Tronic, G-POWER fuel control system II, G-POWER FEEDBACK bypass valve system II, G-POWER CARBON protection cover, G-POWER racing engine conversion, modification at conrod, crankshaft, bearing, G-POWER piston-set, G-POWER injection nozzles I, engine gasket set
G-POWER complete exhaust system with sport catalysts.




G-POWER compressor kit - EVO II incl. modified G-POWER engine - plus 155 hp
M3 3.2l, 476hp (350kW) / 500Nm at 3950 r.p.m
consisting of G22 compressor with HD bearing and freewheel clutch, CNC supercharger bracket system for longer belt take-up, G22 compressor oil system, G-POWER stream-optimized water intercooler (G-POWER AL airbox) with big air-to-water heat exchanger I and pump, suction area temperature protected —a outside engine compartment, G-POWER sport air filter, additional control system G-Tronic, G-POWER fuel control system II, G-POWER FEEDBACK bypass valve system II, G-POWER CARBON protection cover, G-POWER racing engine conversion, modification at conrod, crankshaft, bearing, G-POWER piston-set, G-POWER injection nozzles I, engine gasket set
G-POWER complete exhaust system with sport catalysts.




G-POWER compressor kit - EVO III incl. modified G-POWER engine - plus 214 hp
M3 3.0l, 525hp (367kW) / 570Nm at 4000 r.p.m
consisting of G22 compressor with HD bearing and freewheel clutch, CNC supercharger bracket system for longer belt take-up, G22 compressor oil system, G-POWER stream-optimized water intercooler (G-POWER AL airbox) with big air-to-water heat exchanger II and pump, suction area temperature protected —a outside engine compartment, G-POWER sport air filter, additional control system G-Tronic, G-POWER fuel control system II, G-POWER FEEDBACK bypass valve system II, G-POWER CARBON protection cover, G-POWER racing engine conversion, modification at conrod, crankshaft, bearing, G-POWER piston-set, G-POWER injection nozzles II, G-POWER fuel pump, engine gasket set, G-POWER complete exhaust system with sport catalysts and
G-POWER stainless-steel headers




G-POWER compressor kit - EVO IIIincl. modified G-POWER engine - plus 204 hp
M3 3.2l, 386kW (525hp) / 600Nm at 4000 r.p.m
consisting of G22 compressor with HD bearing and freewheel clutch, CNC supercharger bracket system for longer belt take-up, G22 compressor oil system, G-POWER stream-optimized water intercooler (G-POWER AL airbox) with big air-to-water heat exchanger II and pump, suction area temperature protected —a outside engine compartment, G-POWER sport air filter, additional control system G-Tronic, G-POWER fuel control system II, G-POWER FEEDBACK bypass valve system II, G-POWER CARBON protection cover, G-POWER racing engine conversion, modification at conrod, crankshaft, bearing, G-POWER piston-set, G-POWER injection nozzles II, G-POWER fuel pump, engine gasket set, G-POWER complete exhaust system with sport catalysts and
G-POWER stainless-steel headers

[323i_rare]

check out da-motorsports they have a SC kit and also a turbo kit,
they could probably supply you with the parts individually if you want,
but you will want a standalone, also available from them and so on

I have done but they want $10000 for the full conversion = £5500. They apparently make 457bhp and raise the rev limit to 457bhp. From the dyno peak power is apparently made at 7K rpm. I am not happy with this price, and don't want to send that amount of money to a turkish bank account. Also, not many people use da motorsport, most stick ot ESS.

[Gunni]

ESS where working on the S50´s but I haven´t heard anything in a long time from them

[323i_rare]

I might be interested in this one if its no more than £3000:

G-POWER compressor kit M3 - EVO I 3,2K - plus 64 hp

Any more and I will go will the 400bhp M5 lump. Lots more torque and will cost the same when done.

[GermanGorilla]

Hi,

Gunni- I think the notion that you do not have to''touch'
the internals is fools gold.

The proof is always in the eating.

S50B32 Big end bolts are well known for letting go once the
standard engine is pushed up a few notches.
Oiling will also be an issue if fitted into an E30 as the M3 3.0
Oil pump, usually selected for the conversion due to the sump,
is fine upto about 320 BHP but much more than that
and it will need upgrading along the lines of the Dual pick up
fitted to the standard S50B32.

The standard S50B32 injectors will never work at the increases
being discussed, and although not internal, its another expense.

So as I said, the S50B32 in a E30 will not be cheap.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[323i_rare]

What exactly are big end bolts

[WillG]

they are what bolts your con rods together around your crank basicly could be called rod bolts aswell I guess. what is the engine going in and what will it be used for.

[Gunni]

Hi,

Gunni- I think the notion that you do not have to''touch'
the internals is fools gold.

The proof is always in the eating.

S50B32 Big end bolts are well known for letting go once the
standard engine is pushed up a few notches.
Oiling will also be an issue if fitted into an E30 as the M3 3.0
Oil pump, usually selected for the conversion due to the sump,
is fine upto about 320 BHP but much more than that
and it will need upgrading along the lines of the Dual pick up
fitted to the standard S50B32.

The standard S50B32 injectors will never work at the increases
being discussed, and although not internal, its another expense.

So as I said, the S50B32 in a E30 will not be cheap.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Single pickup to 320hp??
I´ll be sure to relay that to the S50B30 Turbo running 1.8bar boost and 815hp. In a E30 ,

Those kits had injectors included,
Those kits carry a warranty good for any failures from the setup,
so there is no chance in hell g-power would build the kit and get series of claims from damage, it´s TUV approved and what not, G-power is a part of the german tuning union, so quality is there.

Also they cost an arm and a leg, as engineering a solid kit costs alot of money.

[Turbo-Brown]

Think forced induction is quite a stress free way of getting more power from an engine, and 100 or so extra horsepower is fuck all really! I did it on just 7psi from mine!

If you were trying to get the power by increasing the rev limit then the strength of the bottom end might be called into question, but by just applying more pressure to the cylinders you're not asking that much of the internals, especially not the rod bolts. However, generating more power must put more strain on the internals of an engine so if a component's on it's limit as standard, more power might push it over the edge.

A quick search on google suggests that air weighs 1.3g/litre so 9792litres of air weighs 12.7296kg and that's per minute so if the blower mentioned only flows 2.0kg/hr it's waaaaaay too small!

Turbo Brown- I would get it in writing and dated that the OMEX 700
can control BMW dual Vanos.
If not then get your money back.

I've got it in writing luckily enough, just haven't had the engine running since way back when I thought adding a pair of turbos was a good idea. Will be interesting to see whether it actually can do what it says or whether I need to get a refund. I'm happy enough to lose the VANOS though and just have a big engine with throttle bodies myself though

[323i_rare]

they are what bolts your con rods together around your crank basicly could be called rod bolts aswell I guess. what is the engine going in and what will it be used for.

I was thinking of upgrading to ARP bolts for about £70 parts. How difficult it it to fit them though, I've never stripped a bottom end before!

[323i_rare]

Think forced induction is quite a stress free way of getting more power from an engine, and 100 or so extra horsepower is **** all really! I did it on just 7psi from mine!

If you were trying to get the power by increasing the rev limit then the strength of the bottom end might be called into question, but by just applying more pressure to the cylinders you're not asking that much of the internals, especially not the rod bolts. However, generating more power must put more strain on the internals of an engine so if a component's on it's limit as standard, more power might push it over the edge.

A quick search on google suggests that air weighs 1.3g/litre so 9792litres of air weighs 12.7296kg and that's per minute so if the blower mentioned only flows 2.0kg/hr it's waaaaaay too small!

Sorry mate that is suppost to say 2000kg/hr. So 12.729 * 60 = 764kg/hr is doable with room to improve

Turbo Brown- I would get it in writing and dated that the OMEX 700 can control BMW dual Vanos.
If not then get your money back.

Also, RE: Thread Jacking. I only thought most aftermarket ECU's could control a single VANOS, not dual VANOS. Good luck.

[323i_rare]

Also, I have heard that engines are good for 370 bhp with a high 12.6:1 compression ratio with forged larger pistons. What octane of fuel will I need then, I take it 100 is not enough? - so Optimax + booster won't do. What if I convert it to LPG, that has an octane rating of 115. Performance would decrease though?

[WillG]

you should be able to change rod bolts with just the sump off, if you are planning this for road use in a e30 and your on a budget i would just start with the engine conversion and then worry about the tuning when you have car driving. I would go turbo over supercharger or NA. Get a nice big turbo and run low boost and there is no reason to touch internals, all you would want to do is put in some ARP head bolts. So all you would really need is manifold for £500, turbo for £500-600, injectors £300, engine management about 1k, ARP bolts about £150. intercooler £100, wastegate £150-£250, BOV £100, and then downpipe,system and charge pipes fabricated probly about £500. Think thats all you need i think accept small things. Then when you go all this stuff see how far you can get with that, my guess with a nice big turbo that doesnt spool to early you could run 8-10 psi and then with boost control probly alot more becuase you could progress how much boost you have with the rpm so you could maybe run close to 1.5bar at high rpm. Then when this isnt enuff all you need to do is get new pistons to lower CR for about £600 and a MLS gasket and then you can get as much power as you can use in a e30 really just make sure you size the equipment you buy for first setup correctly.

[maxfield]

8psi with 11.3.1 c/r? you sure?

I know i'm not a genius but that sounds dangerous?

[WillG]

its a rough idea im no specalist like ant but what I mean is if he has a large turbo he wont have any restriction so he gets full NA power from the engine and then he can use boost control so that the wasteate is open till for example 4k rpm and then it starts closing abit and keeps boost at 7psi right upto 7k rpm or if possible raises the boost inline with what is safe. im not sure if you can do this with MS or how much boost is safe to use this is upto whoever is tuning the car. Gunni has already said that this supercharger kits making +100 hp require not internal mods so 8psi is just a rought guess of whats safe. If we are talking about just sticking a reasonably small garret on it with a 8 psi spring then no I doubt that wuld be safe becuase you would probly be making 8 psi at about 2500rpm when the engine isnt flowing and cylinder pressure would be too much

[Gunni]

it´s all in the tuning ,
of those kits some use bigger injectors, and add retarded ignition timing and you got yourself a working setup

[Demlotcrew]

The best kits on the market right now are Dinnan you are looking at about 10k for one tho.

Andrew

[Gunni]

Dinan?? Those are not available for the Euro motors are they?

[maxfield]

Dinan?? Those are not available for the Euro motors are they?

]

one way to find out.

http://www.dinancars.com/

or active autowerk

http://www.activeautowerke.com/

[323i_rare]

That is financially unviable. I would rather pick a S54 lump that outputs 343 bhp and can be supercharged to 460bhp on stock internals for £6000.

[Turbo-Brown]

it´s all in the tuning ,
of those kits some use bigger injectors, and add retarded ignition timing and you got yourself a working setup

Don't wanna be having to retard so far that the heads fall off the exhaust valves though!

[Gunni]

Engines are very diffrent, some need alot of advance under NA conditions but can´t handle any boost without alot of retard,
some run general advance patterns and only need minor retard under boost,
some need 1.5deg per boost while other need only 0.5deg per psi,

It´s all in the combustion chamber,
Also charge cooling is a must on such engines as the S50´s

[ed325i]

[ste]

In all seriousness are you not better going the PFF route and starting with an iron block non-vanos M50b25? The compressions where you need it, the cam timing is better for fi there's no vanos to get in the way and a turbo doesn't need the multi throttles of an S50.

I've looked into fi on the M50 family quite a bit and I'm pretty sure there's an e36 fitment kit that will also bolt straight on when fitting into an e30. Only real problem may be relocating the ABS unit. A belt driven hairdryer is definitely in my future plans. BMW didn't fitted a forged crank to the M52 for nothing...

[ian332isport]

That is financially unviable. I would rather pick a S54 lump that outputs 343 bhp and can be supercharged to 460bhp on stock internals for £6000.

That sounds great when you quickly type it on your keyboard, but have you any idea how much work and money is involved in fitting an S54 (or S50 come to that) in an E30 in the first place ?

[323i_rare]

Who said anything about it going into an E30?

[bigdek]

well it should be if your posting here m8.

e30 zone