E30 M3 vs. E36 M3

[Demlotcrew]

Problem is maxfield cams wont work with stock pistons when dialed in to the correct settings.

The valve pockets are just not deep enough.

Andrew

[maxfield]

hmmm ok

maybe some pistons are on the cards to or could you valve pocket the stock ones?

[maxfield]

talking about all this and he hasn't even decided on a car yet

[Theo]

the m3 doesnt need to be super tuned though! Surely a 200bhp early car, fully stripped with a good suspension setup would be a great toy. You could gradually tune it when you save your pocket money up!

E36's are for straigline heros only!

[Demlotcrew]

Yeah you can cut the pockets into stock pistons (or improve on the ones there) but you still dont have the compression for that you need pistons. And while in there might aswell do rings, rods, shells etc.

Andrew

[maxfield]

should be talking about this in the future he hasn't even bought the car yet

i can see it all adding up already

[Demlotcrew]

Thing is theo there is a massive difference between the 195 and 215 engines.

On that i would never buy a early turd unless the shell was MINT!

Andrew

[Simon13]

and the cost just spirals, oh might haswell change the clutch while i'm here

a 215 one would be a good start and tune it last after cage strip, shocks etc. At least like Andy says u won't need as much outlay when it comes to tuning it

[Davenotouring]

Andy and I have been talking, and we are swaying towards an E36. TAXI!

[Simon13]

no no they are a chariot, more go from the box, no trailing arm horrors there!

[maxfield]

Andy and I have been talking, and we are swaying towards an E36. TAXI!

Noooooooo!

[Davenotouring]

Hmmm. 3.0 coupe.........stripped with a decat and just a backbox. Obviously red, with a white bonnet.

[Simon13]

Amen

[Davenotouring]

With added dents, a la Civic.

[Theo]

Artists impression!



What a wrongun!

[jmc330i]

Hmmm. 3.0 coupe.........stripped with a decat and just a backbox.

I have heard (well read on E36coupe.com) that the 3.0ltr M3s dont respond well to the cats being removed. Works well on the 3.2 but not the 3.0, cant see why exactly

Hopefully its not all that bad, Ive only got a backbox on mine

[Andyboy]

Are you looking to build a car yourself Dave or just go out and buy something? E36 M3's are nice cars but they always seemed to be so much hard work to extract the best from them. I reckon a nicely tweaked 328i is possibly the way forward. If you were to start from scratch and screw something together E30 wise, forget an M3 shell because you don't need it. Any straight rot free 316i shell will do. Drop your engine of choice in etc etc.
I'd favour a four door E36 as a base because there are so many about for beans. The suspension is a lot easier to play with, brakes are better, five stud wheels, close ratio gearbox, lightweight alloy block engine, much nicer steering and of course a 24v engine. I'd be looking for a 3 litre E39 or E46 short engine with either a non Vanos or single Vanos head, Shcrick cams, the big bore 325i inlet manifold and around 240-250 bhp. The stock 325i gearbox is up to the job and an M3 LSD bolts in okay.
The E36 has got an awful lot of potential and a 328i for £1500 has got most of the good stuff already in it.

Or for a mad idea, an E36 Compact with a 330Ci engine and 'box.

[jmc330i]

Or for a mad idea, an E36 Compact with a 330Ci engine and 'box.

Wouldnt an E46 330i engine still be expensive to buy??

Along the lines of your mad idea - E36 Compact with 3.0ltr M3 engine. Straight forward swap and should go pretty well.

[oguz327]

Dave if your going to have an M power 3 series it has to be the e30 M3 no question dude, your well into your track day's and the e30 is one of the best track weapon's ever made.
end of

[f13ldy]

Agreed the E30 has the handling to embarass the E36. But for all out power the E36 wins hands down.

Sort the suspension on the E36 and you'll be laughing, it'll be extra work in the corners compared to the E30 but once you are used to it, it'll seem relatively easy.

Plus it's cheaper to buy. Go for the 3.0 (it has no vanos problems), examples are going from around 3.5k (if you don't mind a LHD) to about 6k for a individual minter. Stick on a induction kit, chip, decent suspension, decent brakes, rip out every interior part barring the drivers seat and you'll have a proper track weapon.

[Davenotouring]

Oz,

I know what you're saying, but looking around more, the E36s are so tempting for the prices they are now!

Andyboy....I'd buy an OE M3 3.0 I think, I don't have the mechanical expertise to build/split/rebuild engines....not quite!

A LHD E36 M3 would be fine!

Theo....LOVE it! Big Cheese Racing!

[Karan]

hi dave

i think u r making a mistake thinking about e30 m3s over the e36.....

the cost is too much for not enough compared to the e36

the e36 will be 100% to ure liking i think witth coilovers, 17s, polyed/rose jointed everywhere, strippd and caged, with the 3.0l engine

i just think ure better off with te e36 as gay looking as they are compared to an e30.

i also think u should have had a ride in my in my silvia at the ring to see tha they are chuckable, i think horners is set up a bit funny, whereas mine has had a proper setup with a drivers weight in the seat and geometry etc.- only thing with thse is you need to go OTT on the coolig if ure gonna drive it hard like we do-therefore oil coolers, big rad, fans, holes everywhere etc! u will not have this prob with the e36 m3 3.0l, although the silvia/200 is lighter and i think looks cooler! i also think the sr20 engines are stronger to extreme abuse than s50s as has been shown by quite a few people in the drifting scene (the main place u find 200s), who have found s50 bearings spinning.

i think i know u fairl well dave and i dont think you would be happy in an e30 m3 u spent 10-13k on and u were still getting ass-raped by porshes at the ring just cos u didnt have enough power, this would not happen in the e36 m3 even with zero spent on the engine!

i dont believe i am recommending a m3.......

i actually faced a similar dilemma when i sold the sport, e30 m3, 200sx, e36 m3, skyline r32 gts,,,,,, and i came to the conclusion an e30 m3 without serioous money spent on power was just not quick enough!

on another note i think i told u about that fella in the e30 m3 evo2, caged stripped, ledas, FIA spec interior, slicks, stock egine. he was a good driver with good lines and the car obviously on limit of grip and experienced. he was doing 1min45s at cadwell and i was doing 1min25s with about 280bhp...... which is prob 60 more than he has... there was a mi16'd 205 stripped and caged that was just as quick as him... id be upset if i spent that much and a 5k jap turd and a 205 were quicker to be honest

e36 dude!!! in matt black with bbs, ledas, cage, sparco pro evo buckets, exhaust, ds2500s, SRF, air filter (and maybe a hydraulic handbrake ) that would be a strong reliable track car-which i guess is what u r after.

Karan

[Karan]

adjustable arms available for e36 too for when u slam it!-----total cost would be something like 8k i think give or take

[Dan318-is]

Karan i thought only early s50's spun shells and that most had been sorted?

Still i think you should get an e36 too dave. bang for buck is unbeatable at the moment with them i think.

RE; 205; My mate has a pug 205gti on bike carbs with an Mi-16 an about 190 brake an iv seen videous of him destroying the majority of cars around circuits in the north inc cadwell were i have a video of it keeping up with an evo 8 'bishi for over 8 laps. All this from a tortion bar piece of crackerbread!

[Karan]

i dunno about whch ones spin shells im not sayong the evos do over te non evos, but just that i know a few ppl who have had bottom end issues just to show that they are not indestructable as thi is always a risk with any car

[eamo]

dave

heres my input. I have owned 2 e30 m3s - an evo 2 and a cecotto. I also owned 2 e36 3.0ltr m3s - a 94 and a 95 one.

both are fantastic cars in their own right. first off the e30. I have never driven a car which has super handling as the e30 m3. Its a real drivers car - raw and driver involved. The feedback you get from the steering and suspension is fantastic. Without going into specific models, the e30's are making around 200bhp which isnt a lot goind by todays standards but back when they were first released was more than enough. Its no drag chariot at the lights and there are a lot of cars out there that can take it in a stright line. but on twisty roads/track thats when the car comes into its own. any hero can drive a car fast in a straight line but driving a car fast around corners is a totally different matter! they grip so well and absolutely love to live on the red line!! that buzzy 4 pot needs to driven hard. I used to be all over the back of e36/e46 m3's on track in the twisties but granted when on the straights they would leave me. As some of the guys have already pointed out, tuning them is very costly. If you wanted to spend money on the car, the first thing i would do is change the 3.25 diff for a 3.64 one. You wouldnt believe the difference this makes in acceleration up through the gears but you will loose some top end speed. Then get a bbk and some leda/kw coilovers. Also get some advanced car driving courses under your belt and suddenly you have transformed you and the car into a very formidible weapon. then you can spend money on cams, alpha n, aribox etc

now the e36 m3 - awesomely quick in a straightline - a real point and squirt car. not as communitive as the e30 but does have good handling nonetheless. they are a bit heavy and probably the best thing to do is put the car on a diet - remove those heavy vadars and soundproofing. a very good car on track as well however a rack change would be the first thing on my list. The steering rack in the 3.0 ltr is specific to that car and is actually a slower rack than the standard e36 and evo 3.2 . like the e30 the next thing to do is bbk, coilovers and vanos removal.

you have to ask yourself what exactly you want from these cars and what money you have to spend. early 36's can be picked up for around 4-5k which is not a lot of moeny for such a fast car. and as you know decent e30's can make anything from 6k+!!

the decision is yours but have a good drive in both to help you make up your mind.

good luck!!

[Davenotouring]

Thanks for your input, especially Karan and Eamo.

I think you both have good points, I think with polybushes, coilovers, and a serious diet (a la Civic) it would be quite a weapon.

I'm sure a good E30 M3 would be awesome, but the money spent would need to be more I would imagine to get it as fast around the 'Ring for example. Especially considering you can get an E36 M3 for £4k and strip it, sell the good bits, it may have only cost £3k by then.

E36 M3 3.0 Coupe methinks!

[Theo]

FFS! I've just read the last few posts, I really want an 3.0 e36 m3 now as well! Like you say £4k seems to buy a fairly decent one, i saw one with a load of racing dynamics bits on it go for under 4k the other day, by the time all the morsels had been served, the car would have owed very little!

[Andyboy]

however a rack change would be the first thing on my list. The steering rack in the 3.0 ltr is specific to that car and is actually a slower rack than the standard e36 and evo 3.2 . like the e30 the next thing to do is bbk, coilovers and vanos removal.

Standard E36 rack is apparently best. Taking the vanos out doesn't achieve anything apart from losing a chunk of low end torque and only makes any sense if you're putting different cams in - again very expensive and 320 bhp is probably enough in an E36 stripped to 1100 kilos.
Then there is cost. A decent M3 3 litre is at least £4000 and bits to fix a broken one don't grow on trees. Old ones that are hammered will spin a big end shell at some point so if you were going to use every last RPM you'd need to pull the engine and replace the shells and rod bolts to avoid the thing going horribly wrong. I still think a 328i is a cheaper place to start - get the suspension and brakes up to scratch and then think about more power. You'll get around 230 bhp from one of these. A 330i engine and box drops straight in but you'll need someone clever to hook up the management (they're all twin Vanos). An engine will be about £1000 from a breakers.

A really good 318Ti Compact VLN car with 140 bhp can do a solid 8.50 round the 'Ring! A sound but slightly tatty one is £1000 worth.

[Karan]

however a rack change would be the first thing on my list. The steering rack in the 3.0 ltr is specific to that car and is actually a slower rack than the standard e36 and evo 3.2 . like the e30 the next thing to do is bbk, coilovers and vanos removal.

Standard E36 rack is apparently best. Taking the vanos out doesn't achieve anything apart from losing a chunk of low end torque and only makes any sense if you're putting different cams in - again very expensive and 320 bhp is probably enough in an E36 stripped to 1100 kilos.
Then there is cost. A decent M3 3 litre is at least £4000 and bits to fix a broken one don't grow on trees. Old ones that are hammered will spin a big end shell at some point so if you were going to use every last RPM you'd need to pull the engine and replace the shells and rod bolts to avoid the thing going horribly wrong. I still think a 328i is a cheaper place to start - get the suspension and brakes up to scratch and then think about more power. You'll get around 230 bhp from one of these. A 330i engine and box drops straight in but you'll need someone clever to hook up the management (they're all twin Vanos). An engine will be about £1000 from a breakers.

A really good 318Ti Compact VLN car with 140 bhp can do a solid 8.50 round the 'Ring! A sound but slightly tatty one is £1000 worth.

tha would be awesome for sure!!

thing is as i have found with my own project, its sometimes hard to find the time to build and experiment as u go along

[323i_rare]

More like 8K for a decent one...

[E30BeemerLad]

How much do Compacts weigh?

I do like the compact idea

[Theo]

More like 8K for a decent one...

You'll find that the 3.0 E36 M3's don't go for anything like that money champ. £4k, as mentioned, will get you a decent, but not spectacular one.

[IMMERZ]

E36 M3 over an E30 M3 if I had to buy one. The E36 has that extra amount of power & is that much cheaper than an E30. Imagine, Estoril Blue!!!

£4k should get you a reasonable M3. Maybe a little shagged but £7-£8k will be the price of M3's that are pretty much MINT (E36).

[northloop]

Is it all about speed Dave?

A couple of questions and answers from my viewpoint

1. Do I want the quickest BTG car for a certain budget? Lets call it £8K .......It would have to be the E36
2. Do you want the car which gets looked at most?...........It would have to be the E30
3. Do you want a car which is steeped in history?.............It would have to be the E30
4. Is power the main concern? ........It would have to be the E36
5. Is reliability a big issue? ......... I would suggest the E36 due to newer technology

So which would I have???

If I was leaving the car in Germany for the year (meaning no long return trips in it) I would go for the E30
If BTG was my only concern I would go for the E36
If I was buying with my head E36
If I was buying with my heart E30......

Gary