'rare' dual fuel pump??

[sicknote]

My '91' 318i died last week and after finally getting it to a garage they said the problem was a knackered fuel pump.

they said it would be 50 bucks for it, secondhand and i thought that was the end of it.
they then phoned up an hour later and said that the place they went to didnt have the fuel pump my car had as it was a 'rare' dual or twin fuel pump, basically has 2 electrical outputs and 2 fuel pipes going out of it and its located in the fuel tank. they quoted over 200 bucks to get one in.

was the last of the 318i 's fitted with some dual fuel pump?
some spare parts places arent even sure themselves and they specialise in beemers!
anyone any idea about this and any sort of information/part number on it because there was no part number on it (according to the garage) apart from VDO and i think thats just the housing type.

most places are doing either the bosch or the siemensVDO single pipe one and if i can get some more information on this special 'dual' pump then i can try and get hold of it from somewhere else.

any help would be much appreciated people. i cant stand public transport to work for much longer!

thanks

[smithy318i]

I think you will find that they are reffering to the pipes on the top of the unit. The one you need has two pipes.

One is for the feed and the other is the return.

Pumps with one pipe are used with a different fuel tank where the return line goes into the tank directly.

Alternativly you can mount the new pump motor onto your old housing.

[Sooty]

IIRC, all the later models had two fuel pumps in the tank (one either side).
There's nothing special or rare about it & I'm sure you could get a replacement at a scrappies

EDIT - I'm talking bollocks..........it's the sender units I'm thinking of.

[e21Jason]

Hi

Some olser forigen market bmws had two pumps e21 etc, not sure if it was vapour lock or emmissins reasons to do with that carbon canister set up, but maybe esier to do a one pump conversion.

Jason

[sicknote]

I think you will find that they are reffering to the pipes on the top of the unit. The one you need has two pipes.
One is for the feed and the other is the return.
Pumps with one pipe are used with a different fuel tank where the return line goes into the tank directly.
Alternativly you can mount the new pump motor onto your old housing.

so i can get a normal siemens/bosch jobby and take the motor off it and put it in my knackered one?

if you can explain that a bit more so i can tell the slightly clueless mechanic i'd be well on my way


thanks for the input everyone.

[Demlotcrew]

If you have an external pump then your car will have two pumps.

A primer in the tank and the main one on the left handside near the subframe mounts.

Andrew

[smithy318i]

If you have an external pump then your car will have two pumps.

A primer in the tank and the main one on the left handside near the subframe mounts.

Andrew

not in 1991 they didn't

[smithy318i]

so i can get a normal siemens/bosch jobby and take the motor off it and put it in my knackered one?

if you can explain that a bit more so i can tell the slightly clueless mechanic i'd be well on my way


thanks for the input everyone.

The picture below will show you how the pump motor can be removed from the frame.

The motor is highlighted in blue, while the frame is in red.

the wires will need to be soldered onto the terminals.

[sicknote]

nice one smithy

i'll speak to the mechanic about it tomorrow.

[smithy318i]

Don't let him fob you off with "sorry that wont work mate"

I myself have already done it on my own pump.

[Demlotcrew]

If you have an external pump then your car will have two pumps.

A primer in the tank and the main one on the left handside near the subframe mounts.

Andrew

not in 1991 they didn't

Im sure you will find that most if not all 1991 cars dont have external pumps.

Andrew

[fuzzy]

i will just point out that an escort cosworth pump is a direct swap(marked blue and requiring soldering as smithy318i says) and is Ԛ£50 cheaper (Ԛ£104 compared to Ԛ£150 ish)brand new than a standard e30 pump which also doesnt come with the carrier so requiring soldering as well from ECP.

[Brianmoooore]

If any E30s after 1988 (internal lift pump and external pressure pump before that ) had two fuel pumps then that is complete news to me.
Some cars have a second fuel level sender mounted in the left tank, connected in series with the one in the right tank, but only ever one pump.
The actual pump can be swapped to your original frame with the return pipe as suggested above. Just make sure the soldering is good, as sparks inside a fuel tank full of air and fuel vapour is not a good idea.
JonB lives in your town. He can probably fix you up with one.

[Brianmoooore]

One other point. Later pumps have a rubber sleeve around the actual pump for sound deadening, and a different kind of coupler above the pump. All are interchangeable.

[Demlotcrew]

Brian all E30 M3s have two pumps!

Andrew

[Brianmoooore]

In tank fuel pumps.

[sicknote]

If any E30s after 1988 (internal lift pump and external pressure pump before that ) had two fuel pumps then that is complete news to me.
Some cars have a second fuel level sender mounted in the left tank, connected in series with the one in the right tank, but only ever one pump.
The actual pump can be swapped to your original frame with the return pipe as suggested above. Just make sure the soldering is good, as sparks inside a fuel tank full of air and fuel vapour is not a good idea.
JonB lives in your town. He can probably fix you up with one.

i cant seem to get hold of jonb.

basically the mechanic is having none of it. i'm gonna have to take the pump away, get it sorted and give it back to him to fit it.
and i suppose only then will i find out whether it will actually work or not as there's no way to test it without pressure gauges (apparently because i dont know myself...just trying to sound like i know about these things lol) and if it doesnt work i'm back to square one

what a bleedin nightmare

[Demlotcrew]

In tank fuel pumps.

They have one prime pump and the main pump sits near the left subframe bush.

Andrew

[Brianmoooore]

No '91 318i every left the factory with twin fuel pumps, either in the tank or anywhere else.
The OP is getting stitched up for Ԛ£200 of parts by a "mechanic" who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Keeping M3s out of it, the fuel pump with the twin pipes (which I presume is what we're talking about), is not at all rare or unusual.
If you look at Smithy318i's picture of a fuel pump further up the thread, you will see a vertical tube in the middle, highlighted in red. On a two pipe pump this tube is extended out of the top of the pump and is bent around in a similar way to the other pipe, and is used to return the excess fuel bled off by the fuel pressure regulator at the fuel rail on the engine, to the tank. On cars with just the single pipe pump there is a small extra stub pipe on the tank for the same purpose.
If you have a two pipe pump, you can use it in place of a single pipe by blanking off the unused pipe with a short piece of fuel pipe and a piece of 6mm solid bar.
If you need the two pipe pump and only have a single, it's only a ten minute job to swap the actual pump into the two pipe frame.
Scrapyard I frequent charges Ԛ£5 a time for these fuel pumps.
Frankly, any mechanic that couldn't work this out, wouldn't be going near any car of mine.

[Andyboy]

The 318iS has the same Ԛ£5 fuel pump as any four cylinder E30, i.e 316i or 318i and it's about 20 minutes work to replace. Just change the whole thing with the level sender but be aware that the 6 cylinder pump is different. I assume your wonder mechanic has tested for voltage at the pump? Wouldn't be the first time a shagged pump relay has been diagnosed as a 'knackered fuel pump mate'.

[Brianmoooore]

The 318iS has the same Ԛ£5 fuel pump as any four cylinder E30, i.e 316i or 318i and it's about 20 minutes work to replace. Just change the whole thing with the level sender but be aware that the 6 cylinder pump is different. I assume your wonder mechanic has tested for voltage at the pump? Wouldn't be the first time a shagged pump relay has been diagnosed as a 'knackered fuel pump mate'.

Six cylinder actual pump is the same, and can be fitted to your original frame as I've said above.
Testing for power at the pump connector with a meter, and the connector off the pump can be misleading. Use a 12V 21W lamp instead.

[smithy318i]

The design of the pump depends on the capacity of the fuel tank. Nothing more.

[Andyboy]

Agreed about the 12v21w bulb for testing for power although a mutimeter to read volts/amps/ohms/impedence etc is handy. An example is a V12 Jaguar where the thing would starve of fuel at higher RPM. A crap contact at the impact switch in the door pillar meant the pump wasn't quite getting enough spark - yet it had enough to buzz away. Wiggling the contact meant you could hear the pump audibly pick up.

As for E30 fuel pumps I'm talking about going to a breakers, taking a complete pump assembly from one car and dropping it into another - no point in making things complicated eh?

[Brianmoooore]

Multimeter is extremely useful IF you know how to use it and know its limitations. Trouble is, the average punter on here doesn't, and will test the far end of a live unloaded circuit, find a full 12 volts present, and assume everything is OK, totally oblivious to the 2000 ohm odd contact resistance of a faulty relay, connector or switch!
I have a selection of multimeters: digital, analogue, expensive and cheap, but for most car fault finding, they remain on the shelf.
Most of my testing is done with a 12V5W lamp. Actually an E30 front indicator repeater. The other main tool I use is a three metre length of flexible wire with a croc clip on one end to fit on the battery +.
As for getting the correct pump at a breakers. Fine if you have sufficient choice, but E30s aren't that common in the scrapyards I frequent to ensure you have that choice.

[Andyboy]

Jeeez, where do you live, Outer Mongolia? Both the breakers I go to have plenty in - Smiths in Bloxham (Banbury) have over ten in right now including four red Tourings.
However the other one now has more E36's which have finally started to appear in yards in increasing numbers. Most are shagged H and J plate crappers with the odd mid nineties write off. This yard now puts most E30's straight in the crusher so i have to move fast to get anything. They'll have two old E30's in the yard for parts, squash five that come in and eventually replace the two 'spares cars' with two more. I reckon it gets 20 or 30 a year (and well over 150 - 200 Mondeos)

[dobbie82]

Jeeez, where do you live, Outer Mongolia? Both the breakers I go to have plenty in - Smiths in Bloxham (Banbury) have over ten in right now including four red Tourings.
However the other one now has more E36's which have finally started to appear in yards in increasing numbers. Most are shagged H and J plate crappers with the odd mid nineties write off. This yard now puts most E30's straight in the crusher so i have to move fast to get anything. They'll have two old E30's in the yard for parts, squash five that come in and eventually replace the two 'spares cars' with two more. I reckon it gets 20 or 30 a year (and well over 150 - 200 Mondeos)

The scrap yard (or vehicle dimantlers as they call themselves) up here has never had an e30 when i've asked (About 6 times this year!) but there arent many e30's ip here so not worth them keeping them especially since the scrap metal merchant will pay Ԛ£130 for a full car or Ԛ£45 for a stripped/crushed e30 shell