Is the E30 Over engineered?

[Chris-W]

worse over the last 10 -15 years are Mercedes whose build quality now is about the same as a seventies Ford. I've seen countless rusty 1995-1999 Mercs - in fact when looking at an 8 year old C or E Class it's quicker to count the ones that haven't gone rusty, if you can find one.

Quite - I was offered an eight year old E Class the other week, and was completely stunned by just how rusty it was. Breaking out like a hormonal teenager. And it had full MBSH!

[Andyboy]

Most over engineered, solidly built car ever - gotta be a Volvo 740. Hmmm, a 760 Turbo estate with a chip, bigger turbo and 'spension. Could be quite a weapon.

[robmpulse]

yea, over engineered is a perfect description for these cars.

and this can be both good and bad.......

when car is new and everything on it works...... it's great...because it will last.....

however.....

when things go bad...... they ar emuch harder to work on due tot he much more indepth engeneering......

being over engineered makes things more complicated by nature...... this is why even though we are all driving E30's that most of them cost less than 10,000 USD........ when it comes time to put them in the shop..... it's just like driving a 30,000 USD car when the repair bill comes in.....

[stuartgallafant]

BMW themselves have said, the E30 is the best car they have ever made...

[Brianmoooore]

BMW themselves have said, the E30 is the best car they have ever made...

As have my local dealers.

[mrLEE30]

I've seen countless rusty 1995-1999 Mercs

Got a mate here who is the workshop supervisor for mercedes dealer, he has nothin but bad things to say about the mercs, i have seen (with my own eyes three) mercs with less than 500km on the clock rusting around the inner boot lid, and inside the rooflining (now bear in mind we live in a country with less then an inch a year!) and it has not rained since some of these cars were delivered!!! , he also has four gearboxes from the new S class the best one made 2500km before it packed in( common fault with a C-clip but merc bury their head in ther sand as its not a real problem!!), and would you like an E class with aircondition? no problem sir, as long as you dont use it, they leak gas like sieves from the condensor!

Modern Mercs are only designed to last for five years, they anticipate no second hand value or market for these things, buy em, run em, service em at merc then trade in for recycle at merc when you buy your next one! godd philosophy as you are stuck with em!!

15 year old car.... no problems and no rust!!

buy saying that my Z3 windscreen squirters packed in the other day, try as i might (once i removed the acres of plastic covering the engine) i could not fix it, fuse fine but no voltage at the motor trip to the local agent, they plug the computer in, tap a few buttons, fix it in five mins and inform me if i hadn't paid a grand for the extended warrenty they would have charged me 30quid!!

b-stards

mrlee

[Jonny_71]

I was discussing this thread with a friend last night whilst tinkering with my car. He's a master technician at a BMW dealership and reckons that the E30 was designed and built along the line of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it', hence why there's still so many of the things on the road years after they ceased production. On the other hand, he mentioned that they're up to their necks in new M5 and M6 gearboxes at the moment as it would appear that the hydraulic shift pumps are failing at an alarming rate. They also have an M5 in the workshop for investigation as it seems to have dropped an inlet valve. I don't have any real rust issues with mine, the odd spec here and there due to me being a bit slack repairing stonechips. Never mind, I can live with that.

[e30bmlover]

over engineered??? well they are built to last in my opinion. rust issues are a problem on any car. they should have galvanised all e30's and not just the 318i.s. the e30 was quite advanced for its time with the o.b.c and lsd on the sports.

[Andyboy]

What I said was the BMW has gone downhill since the E30 days

Sorry but that's wishful thinking. The E30 was ALWAYS a lower quality vehicle than the E34 and E28 etc etc. They were mass produced (and the 318iS was never, ever, EVER galvanised) and built down to a price. That's why there is no underseal on the wings behind the arch liners (unlike a VW), why they were not galvanised (like the cheapest Audi). A Saab 900 for example was a better built car. The E30 wasn't a low rent shitter like a Sierra, but there were a lot of cheaper cars that were of better quality.

As for the three cars mentioned - the grey 320i belonged to a CAR magazine photographer and 'words' were had (some might recall the 5 page article about the car in CAR magazine in 1992) but the other two were 'tough shit matey' jobsa lthough the blue 316 had a good will contribution. Had your mate with the 1998 5 Series Touring compained about the beginnings of tailgate rust two years ago when the car was COVERED BY THE ANTI RUST WARRANTY he would have had a new one, no questions. He didn't, so it's his tough shit. And when was the last time you saw a 1998 -2000 (R-V plate) BMW with serious rust scabs all over it?

[e30bmlover]

and the 318iS was never, ever, EVER galvanised

do u even know what u are talking about mate? everyone knows that they were galvanised at birth.

[hammoj28]

320touring wrote:

to be honest-overengineered-nope!

that is the minimum build quality i'd expect from a car i bought.

but you can see where BMW spent the extra money- mainly on making bolts that still loosen after 18 years.

Yep, thats what shows the quality of e30's. The majority of other cars from its era you can not do this. Nuts and bolts knurl and snap, simple jobs are a pain in the ass on e.g pug 205's, minis and loads more but on every e30 i have had no job has been delayed by a knurled nut or rust. Its always been way simpler whereas on my mini(similar age), rust bolts etc make simple jobs take ages.

[Andyboy]

Its always been way simpler whereas on my mini(similar age), rust bolts etc make simple jobs take ages.

That's because Minis are extremely poor quality in common with everyting else Rover 'built'.
E30's are quite well screwed together though, agreed there.

[Andyboy]

don't take this the wrong way, but you are rather sassy for a 19 post-er - are you one of the Keyboard warriors from last week with a new identity?

Been here since 2003 matey. Just started again with my original user name.

[Ziggy]

I'd describe blocked drainholes as a design flaw rather than poor build tbh... Did you ever see Geeman's recently sold 7er though? That was looking surprisingly crispy.

To answer the original question, in my opinion an E30 isn't over engineered. I'd define that as making things stronger (& therefore heavier etc) than they'd have any need to be - that's a bad thing for a car. I would describe them as well engineered though, and pretty well built too.

and the 318iS was never, ever, EVER galvanised

do u even know what u are talking about mate? everyone knows that they were galvanised at birth.

Everyone's heard the rumour, but do they actually know that? Where did you hear it, for example?

[pacerpete]

Sorry four pot losers, i know you try to justify your sad chariot by reciting urban myths as you hunt around desperately trying to find an uncracked M42 head that hasn't had 1/2 an inch skimmed off it to get your 'rare' IS back on the road but no they were NOT galvanised. Well not the 4 that i fragged or Kos's or any or any other one i have come across.
I must say it does sadden me as i sit here bathing my eyes, after an intensive M3 jacking point rebuild, to think of all those nasty late 80s audis with no rust

[Andyboy]

Pete, the 318iS engine was hand built by virgins and the antifreeze was mixed with holy water. Fucking hell, didn't you know that?

So, BMW galvanised the 318iS and no other car eh? Wow, that's some pedigree! That's a load of shit!

The 318iS is a regular E30 saloon built on the same production line, from the same materials as every other E30 2 or 4 door saloon, M3's included. Only the Tourings and Convertibles (not Baurs) were given the proper rust treatment because they were built in another factory and I've seen a couple of horrific iS's in breakers. One had absolutely no inner rear arch left on the petrol flap side. With all the trim removed you could see the rear tyres from inside the car!



Anyway, Galvanising does not stop rust, only slow it down as all those rotten post 1976 911's prove. One good stone chip and the rust gets in and eats away. The reason Audis don't rot badly is due to both galvanising their exceptional undersealing and wax injection.They really got that right but in the seventies the first shape Audi 100's and the Coupe S were shocking rust buckets. The front wings used to literally fall off.

Orangecurry - no offence mate, just a healthy difference of opinion!

[320Touring]

I've tidied this one up a bit, anyone with e39 tailgate issues, please report to the bmw car club GB....

Lets try to keep what was an enjoyable debate on topic please!

thanks

Neil

[Dan318-is]

Most over engineered, solidly built car ever - gotta be a Volvo 740. Hmmm, a 760 Turbo estate with a chip, bigger turbo and 'spension. Could be quite a weapon.

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/bru ... fe7173.htm

[tim_s]

the 318iS was never, ever, EVER galvanised
Rolling Eyes That's a load of shit!

Sorry four pot losers, i know you try to justify your sad chariot by reciting urban myths as you hunt around desperately trying to find an uncracked M42 head that hasn't had 1/2 an inch skimmed off it to get your 'rare' IS back on the road but no they were NOT galvanised. Well not the 4 that i fragged or Kos's or any or any other one i have come across.
I must say it does sadden me as i sit here bathing my eyes, after an intensive M3 jacking point rebuild, to think of all those nasty late 80s audis with no rust

Yawn, getting boring guys.
The chassis was cathode dipped and zinc-plated, I have it written in front of me by none other than BMW themselves in some 1990 literature. I can scan if you want?

[Chris-W]

Tim - not looking for you to 'prove it', but I'd be interested in seeing the literature you have.

Cheers,
Chris

[tim_s]

np, you got email, saves me hosting it?

[pacerpete]

So would the person with the '91 318is who i have just relieved of Ԛ£300 to repair his front' jacking points' and no the turd had never been damaged, not there anyway I wonder if BMW had zinc plated the M42 cylinder head would they have lasted any longer ?

[tim_s]

attack's the best form of defence eh pete? the m42 abuse on here is never ending.

Anyway, would the person what, pete? Tell BMW they made a mistake cos his chassis can't possibly have been cathode dipped cos its rusty 16 years later?

fwiw, and to try to allay your concerns over our wonderful cylinder heads(!):

my bro's old 318is had over 200k on it on the orig cyl head and chain, was badly maintained and ragged throughout its life. had track abuse and still no drama. Must have just been lucky you know, what with all those head failures you're telling me about.
Frederick on e36coupe did 203k on orig chain and head before selling the car. Very lucky indeed, man, very lucky indeed.
Pal's has over 200k on it on the orig 16 yr old cyl head (afaik), that's three people I know with over 200k on their M42 original cylinder heads, still with what you tell me that must be some crazy freakish luck though.
Tell you what though, mine still has the orig 16 yr old cyl head on it and dan's has the orig 16 yr old cyl head on his. I could go on... but I guess we're just one exceptionally lucky group of people.

sure they go wrong, and some people haven't had good luck with them, but shit happens, all cars go wrong eventually, especially 15+ year old cars with 6 figure mileages.
Is 16 years and 100-200k+ miles not a good run for a cylinder head?

craziest of all, BMW not only used a similar design on the M50, but used a pretty much identical head casting for the M44, the fools! obviously they didnt realise how crap they were though, if only you'd told them. you could also tell them that you've fragged 4 318ISs, and found a 16 year old BMW with some rust on its jacking points, so obviously the chassis wasn't cathode dipped, despite their own literature stating otherwise

i enjoy the banter, but tell you what, for the sake of maintaining at least some factual basis why don't you just call them 4 pot wrongness? Seems to work for everyone else around here?
Actually fuck it, at least your posts are funny

[johnono]

The over engineered part to me is the way everything is designed to be worked on, E30's are a lot more thought out than the later E36's IMO

nigga please

[tomtomiS]

my iS has 175k and only prob the car has had was is a fucked diff, and that was my fault. for not checkin tyre profile on spare wheel

[pacerpete]

You can sleep at night Tim I have given up fragging ISs , the market value of a set of shagged 14"BBS is Ԛ£20, the trim is invariably rottweiler spec , the front lip has usually been chawed and even if you luck upon one with a decent engine, now that the cars are worth tuppence (thats what the fat cnut from the carclub said!) no one will spend any money on one .Except you but you are a known deviant !

I have been working on cars for too long and was changing profile gaskets on M42s when they were 3 years old, 75% of m42 engined cars i have known have needed major engine work, usuually head related.
The last time i needed a 'good' M42 head i t took me a month to find one , i even resorted to taking them off cars in scrapyards only to be greeted by cracks,( usually no 3 combustion chamber) or excessive corrosion and or evidence of previous machining meaning that the head would be unsuitable for repair.

Actually i do like 318ISs as a car , they drive well and are great on petrol but the combination of a potentially expensive (dare i say exotic in its day !) engine in a Ԛ£100 car invariably leads to tears.

[Chris-W]

np, you got email, saves me hosting it?

Cheers Tim:

chris@chriswarburton.co.uk

Thanks,
Chris

[yz_250]

silly question to ask on a forum where everyone loves there car to pieces !!!!

Very good point bro!

[tim_s]

damn that sucks pete, was hoping you could frag a few and thin out the numbers a bit. there's plenty of shitters out there giving them a bad name!

[tim_s]

chris, you got mail

[Andyboy]

Yawn, getting boring guys.

Well sod off back to 318iS dreamland then.

I have an E30 brochure too (yippee-fucking-doo) that comes out with all that zinc coating bullshit (as did Alfa Romeo in 1978!). Would you like a scan of it?



Notice that it says 'zinc coating at vital points' or whatever. This is just zinc spray at thw welded joint like every other car has. It is NOT a proper galvanised car like an Audi.

Still a fact of life that an old iS will rot away like any other old E30 saloon - seen enough rotten ones in scrapyards thanks!
Meanwhile, keep taking the pills and reciting the iS mantra;

"My car will not rust, my car will not rust, my head won't crack............"

Meanwhile, consider yourself well and truly shot down in flames!

[tim_s]

Agreed its not a fully galvanized bodyshell - Audi are afaik the only company in the world to do 100% body hot-dip galvinazation.
I said:

The chassis was cathode dipped and zinc-plated

thus to say

the 318iS was never, ever, EVER galvanised

isn't exactly telling the whole story. I take your point though, galvanic action through cathode dip plus zinc coating is hardly the same as a proper fully body hot-dip galvinization.

[Dan318-is]

I have an E30 brochure too (yippee-fucking-doo)

sometimes i wonder if you boys even like e30s

[Andyboy]

Of course I do! Ever since my dad brought one home from BMW in December 1982, a Henna red 323i with bottletops. This car still exists and it was one of the two concours minters at Gaydon.

I'm pretty sure the first totally galvanised car was the Porsche 911 from 1976 but Lincoln were galvanising entire panels and floorpans in 1961.

[tim_s]

oh yeah forgot about porsches!
the point i was trying to make is that although there's a big difference between the e30 and a 'proper' fully galvanized car, there's also a big difference between a chassis thats had a zinc phosphate bath and cathodic bath and

just zinc spray at thw welded joint like every other car has