its with me in colchester atm, but sure i'll be in Brighton some point soon so i'll bring it with me
M50 / M52 / S50 manifold group buy?
Moderator: martauto
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ian332isport
- E30 Zone Team Member
- Posts: 5380
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- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
Sounds fair enough to meJhonno wrote:£50 and a ride in ur e30? (if its on the road atm..)
its with me in colchester atm, but sure i'll be in Brighton some point soon so i'll bring it with me
Let me know when your coming down. No great rush or anything.
Cheers,
Ian.
If it aint broke - Modify it...
The pic above looks the same as my 3.0ltr manifold. All the pipes are single piece on mine.ian332isport wrote:They are very similar, but I believe the 3.0L header pipes have welded joints in the middle of some of the pipes. On the 3.2 they are all one single piece.Jhonno wrote:erm.. pass.. didnt realise they were different to be fair you got a pic of what a 3.2 one looks like?
it just came with the bulk of stuff i bought
I thought the 3.2 has the Lambda sensor holes in the manifolds and the 3.0ltr doesnt?? Lambdas fitted to the Cats on the 3.0ltr M3.
James
'91 325i Sport
'93 318i touring 16v
'91 325i Sport
'93 318i touring 16v
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jaistanley
- E30 Zone Addict
- Posts: 2517
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Coventry and Essex
My 3.2 manifolds from a ZRoadster have the lamda sensors on them, not the cats...
Ian: Those manifolds are still of use, you'll just need to mount the sensors the same distance away from the valves as on the 3.2 manifolds. If they're gonna be development mules anyway it might be worth it.
Jai
Ian: Those manifolds are still of use, you'll just need to mount the sensors the same distance away from the valves as on the 3.2 manifolds. If they're gonna be development mules anyway it might be worth it.
Jai
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jaistanley
- E30 Zone Addict
- Posts: 2517
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Coventry and Essex
News news news news news news news news??? Blurgh.
No news.
No news.
OK chaps, my sump should arrive today or tomorrow so I can drop the engine in then. After that it won't be long until I take it upto BTB for the manifold.
ALternatively if someone else wants to use their car as the 'guinea pig' and is ready and waiting, let me know and we can build the template manifold on their car.
I'm as eager as you lot to get this done!
ALternatively if someone else wants to use their car as the 'guinea pig' and is ready and waiting, let me know and we can build the template manifold on their car.
I'm as eager as you lot to get this done!
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GermanGorilla
- E30 Zone Regular
- Posts: 528
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:00 pm
Hi,
I have been reading this thread and while I believe the idea is sound,
I think many aspects need to be considered correctly, otherwise the
common belief that I see emerging here, in that a 'One Size' fits all is
going to result in more that a few unhappy csutomers.
Engine Position-
I have now seen several conversions into E30's using the
M50 / S50 Engines, unless all engines are in the same position, more or less, as the one used for the original
Manifold Template, then there will be fitting issues.
Reason for this is that the clearance over the front subframe is not great
and there is no way of altering this without effecting the length of the
manifold primairies.
Different engine mounts fitted in different ways will also effect clearance
issues.
Some may go E28 M5, some may go After market Ireland Engineering
and so on.
Back Pressure -
All BMW engines require an element of Back Pressure to make them run
correctly so once the primaries are altered in any way
the back pressure alters, this agin need factoring in
for any aftermarket design.
Flow Rate -
All manifolds have a flow rate combined with the back pressure which act
as a means of helping extract or pull the exhaust gases from the head.
If these gases are not extracted as per the manifold's original flow rates,
then the O2 sensors can read wrong, and make tuning the car an absolute
nightmare.
So as I said, I appluad the concept, but think somebody needs to prepare
a blue print of standard itmes so that some common ground, like,
engine position, type of mounts used, postion of mounts etc. can all be
made as the ''blueprint' for using the 'Zone' manifold.
Regards,
The Gorilla.
I have been reading this thread and while I believe the idea is sound,
I think many aspects need to be considered correctly, otherwise the
common belief that I see emerging here, in that a 'One Size' fits all is
going to result in more that a few unhappy csutomers.
Engine Position-
I have now seen several conversions into E30's using the
M50 / S50 Engines, unless all engines are in the same position, more or less, as the one used for the original
Manifold Template, then there will be fitting issues.
Reason for this is that the clearance over the front subframe is not great
and there is no way of altering this without effecting the length of the
manifold primairies.
Different engine mounts fitted in different ways will also effect clearance
issues.
Some may go E28 M5, some may go After market Ireland Engineering
and so on.
Back Pressure -
All BMW engines require an element of Back Pressure to make them run
correctly so once the primaries are altered in any way
the back pressure alters, this agin need factoring in
for any aftermarket design.
Flow Rate -
All manifolds have a flow rate combined with the back pressure which act
as a means of helping extract or pull the exhaust gases from the head.
If these gases are not extracted as per the manifold's original flow rates,
then the O2 sensors can read wrong, and make tuning the car an absolute
nightmare.
So as I said, I appluad the concept, but think somebody needs to prepare
a blue print of standard itmes so that some common ground, like,
engine position, type of mounts used, postion of mounts etc. can all be
made as the ''blueprint' for using the 'Zone' manifold.
Regards,
The Gorilla.
That was what I though at first. The big one is going to be the differences in position between the M50/M52 and S50 heads.
As for engine position, most people doing this conversion on the Zone have used the same mounts - they worked for other so why go a different route.
As for engine position, most people doing this conversion on the Zone have used the same mounts - they worked for other so why go a different route.
James
'91 325i Sport
'93 318i touring 16v
'91 325i Sport
'93 318i touring 16v
Absolutely - I'll be using e36 arms and e28 M5 rubber mounts. Fitment of the manifold would require the same combination to be sure of clearance.
As already said - I'm not sure the M5x and S50 exhaust ports are in the same place relative to the chassis when fitted. Time and careful measuring will tell.
As already said - I'm not sure the M5x and S50 exhaust ports are in the same place relative to the chassis when fitted. Time and careful measuring will tell.
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jaistanley
- E30 Zone Addict
- Posts: 2517
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Coventry and Essex
I have E36 arms and am going to get the M5 mounts as above.
Does anyone know of a company that can create CNC bends in pipe that is the correct diameter for our needs?
It's not inconceivable for me to measure up clearances and make a simple 3d model of the head position and chassis, then design the pipes in Catia. The great thing about Catia is you can set certain parimeters and then manipulate shapes around them. I could set the internal volume of the primary pipes in the software and play about with different pipe shapes in 3D. Effectively bind the ends to the head end and collector end then see where the pipes can go.
To make a manifold with similar charachteristics as the original would require each primary having approximately the same volume and radius of bends (I say volume as it's more clear..the scavenging effect of the manifolds comes from the flow of air having inertia).
Just a thought, getting someone to bend pipes in such a comlex shape might not be possible anyway!
Jai
Does anyone know of a company that can create CNC bends in pipe that is the correct diameter for our needs?
It's not inconceivable for me to measure up clearances and make a simple 3d model of the head position and chassis, then design the pipes in Catia. The great thing about Catia is you can set certain parimeters and then manipulate shapes around them. I could set the internal volume of the primary pipes in the software and play about with different pipe shapes in 3D. Effectively bind the ends to the head end and collector end then see where the pipes can go.
To make a manifold with similar charachteristics as the original would require each primary having approximately the same volume and radius of bends (I say volume as it's more clear..the scavenging effect of the manifolds comes from the flow of air having inertia).
Just a thought, getting someone to bend pipes in such a comlex shape might not be possible anyway!
Jai
jaistanley wrote:Just a thought, getting someone to bend pipes in such a comlex shape might not be possible anyway!
I think that's the problem. A CNC or mandrel bender can't replicate the tight radiuses that we require. Hence BTB will use the existing tight radius hydrformed M3 manifolds and modify them.
OK an update, I've now been given a slot by BTB for the manifolds to be ready.
Unfortunately it won't be until the 8th of January. I'm happy to wait for then as I know the quality will be worth waiting for. I understand other may not want to wait though.
I've also discussed BTB supplying full M50/S50 exhaust systems that will bolt straight up to the flange on these manifolds. They will be a 2x 2" twin box system with a full proper X pipe and again BTB would offer group discount on them. They will replicate the necessary parts of the e36 M3 system but made specially to fit to the e30. They will offer improved flow and obviously will not have the cats etc. I'll be having one of these and would recommend anyone wanting to get the most from one of these conversions to consider one. Shame to fit an S50 and then strangle it.
But the E36 M3 system is a 2x2.5" system as standard. 2x2" would be ok for the M50/M52 but surely its too small for the S50??ste wrote: They will be a 2x 2" twin box system.
James
'91 325i Sport
'93 318i touring 16v
'91 325i Sport
'93 318i touring 16v
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jaistanley
- E30 Zone Addict
- Posts: 2517
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Coventry and Essex
I'm still interested. I can wait till January no prob... When are we looking at payment?
As for the whole exhaust system, it might end up a little pricey for me. I have a backbox to molest (like Busters) already.
Keep us posted!
Jai
As for the whole exhaust system, it might end up a little pricey for me. I have a backbox to molest (like Busters) already.
Keep us posted!
Jai
Yep I realised this not long after talking to the chap at BTB. They know their stuff though and it's possible he just said the wrong size.jmc330i wrote:But the E36 M3 system is a 2x2.5" system as standard. 2x2" would be ok for the M50/M52 but surely its too small for the S50??ste wrote: They will be a 2x 2" twin box system.
I'm sure they will do them in any size we want anyway.
Having said that, it's possible a 2x2" system might be intentional. The factory 2.5" exhaust has other priorities, i.e. there are cats involved and economy considerations. A 2x2" system might actually aid power due to higher gas speed. I'm purely speculating here and I guess he just said the wrong number but it's possible.
Look at exhausts on naturally aspirated race cars and they never have drainpipes poking out of the back.
My race car had a fully blueprinted Group N engine and a Group N exhaust. The bore was slightly smaller (although more consistent) than the standard factory fit exhaust. This was the only exhaust known to help power over a factory exhaust.
Obviously all specs will be checked and finalised before BTB start any work.
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Beemer Redeemer
- E30 Zone Newbie
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Bristol
- Contact:
Hi Ste,
As discused via email - im defenatly up for one of the S50 manifolds please.
January time is fine for me.
Who and how do i pay a deposit ?
Thanks,
James
As discused via email - im defenatly up for one of the S50 manifolds please.
January time is fine for me.
Who and how do i pay a deposit ?
Thanks,
James
Hi Ste.
Been trying to follow this but I'm still not clear on one point
so please bear with me?
Will BTB be making the headers themselves once they've got a master to copy or will they need people to supply a fannymold to modify?
I'll definately be a buyer if they're going to produce a straightforward 'bolt-on' set-up at a sensible price (mine's an M50 on M5 mounts with an E36 rack BTW).
Like Jai, a complete system could be a bit too steep for my pockets, but something that can bolt up to a std 325 system would be perfect.
Keep us posted?
Iain S
Been trying to follow this but I'm still not clear on one point
so please bear with me?Will BTB be making the headers themselves once they've got a master to copy or will they need people to supply a fannymold to modify?
I'll definately be a buyer if they're going to produce a straightforward 'bolt-on' set-up at a sensible price (mine's an M50 on M5 mounts with an E36 rack BTW).
Like Jai, a complete system could be a bit too steep for my pockets, but something that can bolt up to a std 325 system would be perfect.
Keep us posted?
Iain S
Very interested all the way over here guys...Sydney australia!...i`m doing Euro S50 E30 swap ...and my exhaust issues are slowing down the swap project!
but i guess id need an idea of cost..shipping to this far away place costs$$$$
sash
but i guess id need an idea of cost..shipping to this far away place costs$$$$
sash
Hello everyone - sorry for the lack of updates I'm busy with work at the moment. (Why my project has hardly progressed... 
)
Anyway, the date with BTB (Jan 8th) is drawing near.
To confirm, the groupbuy is as follows:
S50 E36 M3 manifolds modified to fit an M50, M52 or S50 when fitted in an e30 bodyshell. Assumptions are that you've used e28 M5 engine mounts and e36 metal engine mount arms. The manifold will clear the e36 M3 steering rack coupling that I can supply so will also fit with the standard e30 steering rack coupling.
Price is £495 all inclusive. i.e. I provide the original E36 M3 manifold to be modified.
Otherwise if you want to provide your own manifold for modification - price is £400.
The price is slightly higher than I originally quoted (by £15), this is due to the slightly higher price I had to buy the standard manifolds at.
Just so you all know - I'm not turning a nice profit on this - I'm doing it as a way to make my own manifold affordable. I didn't want the £500+VAT (£587.50) minimum price that BTB want for a one off. I'm basically saving £100 just like anyone else who buys one in this deal, and covering some of the costs of getting my car trailered upto Northamptonshire to have the manifolds mocked up on.
OK - anyone who is 100% in, can you email me confirmation to steATm50e30.co.uk (replace AT with @) and I'll tell you where to send your deposit cheque.
I think that's everything covered - any more Qs fire away.
)Anyway, the date with BTB (Jan 8th) is drawing near.
To confirm, the groupbuy is as follows:
S50 E36 M3 manifolds modified to fit an M50, M52 or S50 when fitted in an e30 bodyshell. Assumptions are that you've used e28 M5 engine mounts and e36 metal engine mount arms. The manifold will clear the e36 M3 steering rack coupling that I can supply so will also fit with the standard e30 steering rack coupling.
Price is £495 all inclusive. i.e. I provide the original E36 M3 manifold to be modified.
Otherwise if you want to provide your own manifold for modification - price is £400.
The price is slightly higher than I originally quoted (by £15), this is due to the slightly higher price I had to buy the standard manifolds at.
Just so you all know - I'm not turning a nice profit on this - I'm doing it as a way to make my own manifold affordable. I didn't want the £500+VAT (£587.50) minimum price that BTB want for a one off. I'm basically saving £100 just like anyone else who buys one in this deal, and covering some of the costs of getting my car trailered upto Northamptonshire to have the manifolds mocked up on.
OK - anyone who is 100% in, can you email me confirmation to steATm50e30.co.uk (replace AT with @) and I'll tell you where to send your deposit cheque.
I think that's everything covered - any more Qs fire away.
You're not in until you email me with your details and you've sent me a £100 deposit dude.
So far I have confirmation from the following people:
Me
Ian332iSport
Adil
I also have lots of emails showing interest and promising a deposit but have no other cheques. It's as simple as this: We need 5 people for the price above, if I don't have deposits in my account by the 7th Jan I'll be getting just the ones made I have deposits for and anyone else will be back to cutting and bodging bits of pipe or paying the full price of £587.50 to BTB.
Sooty
E30_tracker
jaistanley
You have all told me you are 100% in - I need the deposit cheques or I'm afraid you'll be missing out. I'm not going to spunk £3k on manifolds to be left stuck with them.
Jhonno, old-skool-2002, MR_SAZ, etc - if you are still interested let me know.
Cheers fellas.
So far I have confirmation from the following people:
Me
Ian332iSport
Adil
I also have lots of emails showing interest and promising a deposit but have no other cheques. It's as simple as this: We need 5 people for the price above, if I don't have deposits in my account by the 7th Jan I'll be getting just the ones made I have deposits for and anyone else will be back to cutting and bodging bits of pipe or paying the full price of £587.50 to BTB.
Sooty
E30_tracker
jaistanley
You have all told me you are 100% in - I need the deposit cheques or I'm afraid you'll be missing out. I'm not going to spunk £3k on manifolds to be left stuck with them.
Jhonno, old-skool-2002, MR_SAZ, etc - if you are still interested let me know.
Cheers fellas.
Hi Ste 
I'm interested in one of these, but as I've only just started planning my conversion I think I won't be able to make the 7th January deadline
fingers crossed though! What exhaust are you planning to run from the manifold, are you getting a one-off from BTB or have something else planned?
I'm interested in one of these, but as I've only just started planning my conversion I think I won't be able to make the 7th January deadline
fingers crossed though! What exhaust are you planning to run from the manifold, are you getting a one-off from BTB or have something else planned?Hiya mate, how much is the rest of the system costing you? PM if you wish..
I'm looking at the idea of a 2.8 block (non-vanos) with 2.5 (non-vanos / ews) everything else, seems like a very do-able project on a budget from what I've read into it and priced up, the only true hazy area apart from what gearbox variety to use is the bloody exhaust manifold!
I'm looking at the idea of a 2.8 block (non-vanos) with 2.5 (non-vanos / ews) everything else, seems like a very do-able project on a budget from what I've read into it and priced up, the only true hazy area apart from what gearbox variety to use is the bloody exhaust manifold!
