LPG conversions

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:17 pm

Hi there,

Has anyone priced doing a conversion on the m20 engine?

Can anyone recommend a company for fitting it?

I'm thinking that i'd like to make the investment in it once I get the rest of the car up to spec-probably in the summer at the latest...

thanks!

320Touring

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:59 pm

Beware about LPG as its cheapness may only be short term. There are signs of research that says that it is not as green as once hoped. Yes there are far fewer particles than petrol, but there are apperently other gases that it produces.

However over the next 5 years or so I suspect it will still be cheap. If you do a high mileage you will save some money.

As for cost it all depends on how you want it done, what tank you want is the biggest price issue. Big tank in the boot is the cheapest followed by donut in place of spare wheel. However you can have a tank in replace of all/part of the petrol tank.

There are also different systmes on how it is injected.

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:10 pm

it may also be not that simple to convert, i approached ( 1 ) company and because of the mileage 106.000 and no cat fitted they wouldn't entertain doing the work . no particular reason maybe they just didn't want the work !!

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:23 pm

Don't think mileage and not having a cat should be a problem. Its all about if your engine is in good nick. If its runs badly on petrol it will run even worse on lpg.

There are kits which you can do yourself!! There was talk of a group buy/fit on the old forum...

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:16 pm

Yeah, I'm interested in an LPG conversion but was considering buying another BMW that is already converted and maybe swapping the engine/parts over to mine, I would expect it would work out far cheaper than buying and fitting a new system.

How about an E36 M3 engine with LPG.....power and economy....or is it not a good idea to fit LPG on such an engine?

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:23 pm

Not sure about to an e36 m3 but there are performance LPG powered cars just look at that BTTC car the other year...

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:56 pm

LPG is a far better fuel as regards the life of the engine than petrol. No petrol washing oil off the bores and far less contaminating of the oil.
Performance wise, LPG has an octane rating of about 110 to 120, so, if you build an engine to take advantage of this, it should produce more power. Problem is it wouldn't then run on petrol as well.
Fitting an LPG kit is fairly simple. Anyone who is competent enough to change their own cambelt etc. should have any problems, BUT, use all the correct bits and fit them properly in accordance with the instructions/regulations.
Before you fit a kit, check that you can insure the car OK. The LPGA, (a self serving trade association), have done a fairly good job on UK insurers in an attempt to preserve their golden goose.
M20 engines run well on 2nd generation mixer systems, with only a minimal power loss, caused by fitting a venturi in the air inlet.
I've run my 325 Touring for nearly four years, and haven't had any noticeable loss of power.
If you fit a more modern gas injection system, ( much more expensive), there should be no power loss at all, and potential for some gains.
Anyone with a late E30, running with a cat, should be able to remove it and still pass MOT emissions OK.
A few years ago, there was a support race series for the BTCC, running Vectras. One of these was LPG powered, and a couple of years ago there was a LPG powered car entered for Le Mans, but it didn't qualify.

Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:00 am

I have an 1988 320i with a CAT fitted (Italian model), is it better to have a CAT when getting an LPG conversion or do they remove it when fitting the system to pass emissions???

Cheers

Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:30 pm

The purpose of the cat is to reduce the emission levels of filthy, smelly petrol. LPG does not produce an excessive amount of these emissions, so the cat is not needed. It can either be removed to liberate more power, or left in place.
Either way, the gas ECU will need a lambda sensor to be fitted.

Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:12 am

Brian, do you have enough experience of these things to act as teacher / instructer / director if a few of us decide to fit LPG systems? I'm thinking a weekend, all together, somewhere with enough room.....and tools.

Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:57 pm

NEWS FLASH:

The lovely Mr Brown has just said that we have no tax rises on LPG for the next three years

Rock on!

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:45 pm

Danstable WHAT A PLAN!

if Brian was willing to act as supervisor, and we could arrange a suitable meeting place with enough facilities-then that would be Ideal!?

I've found a company that will provide a multipoint injection system for the m20 with a tank for circa Ãƒ”šÃ‚£600-700 inc delivery!

web address is www.lpgkitdirect.co.uk- Have a look-tell me what you think?!

Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:05 pm

Nice one, and an Italian company to near where I am in Turin. Let me know what you find out on their system as there is a supplier in Turin and if it's a good system I will look into getting it fitted to my 320 out here in Italy.

Good luck! Cheers.

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:51 pm

There are group buy opportunities here I think. I was offered one free system if I could get 9 orders.....there wasn't any interest at the time though

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:58 pm

Danstable- one step ahead of you mate,

I've emailed the company to see if they would offer a discount/deal if we could get 10 firm orders

am awaiting their reply with interest...

all we need to do now is convince brian to officiate, fix a date and also fix a location.

may have to be some time later on this year as got to get the cash together (or arrange a loan...)

Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:27 pm

hmmmm yes, the money is an issue for me at the moment, hence me trying to get a free one! Also, would ideally like to get the engine that I want in the car, then do the conversion.

Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:47 pm

I'm very interested in this.

But what about fitting?

Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:19 am

Our (me and danstable) is to get say 10 zoners to commit,get a price from the suppliers then arrange a weekend and location that suits everyone.

that way we can muck in and get them all fitted.......

It'll be open to all zoners 4,6,8 (12?!) cyls are all welcome!

am still waiting to hear back form the suppliers for a group buy price.

once i get the info i'll post it in the group buy section-

keep your eyes peeled!

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:20 pm

response from suppliers as follows....

Hi Neil,
Orders of 10 would be subject to a discount of 10%. Good luck with your rallying.
Kind Regards
Susan Finn
LPG KIT DIRECT

that makes it Ãƒ”šÃ‚£540 for the LPG kit (multipoint) and a tank for a 6cyl!

once we have 10 or more members comitted on this list, and a date agreed I'll start a list in the group buy section then

Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:32 pm

please quote this list and add yourself and your preferred dates to it.....

I'm thinking we should make the dates sometime in may/june, gives us all time to raise the cash and lets us inform the 'significant others' (plenty of warning)!!

1. 320Touring (Neil) weekends of 21/22, 28/29 May or 4/5 11/12 June

2.

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:09 pm

At that sort of price I'm in, June or July should be ok for me, May might be a bit early.

If I were to fit the kit to my existing standard 325 I assume I would then be able to drop in another 6 cylinder engine at a later date and still use the same LPG system with very little extra faffing?

Another point, may need to be carefull about insurance, many of them want a certificate to show it has been correctly installed I believe.

Oh and another thing, everyone speak to all the travelling salesmen you know, at that price it would pay for itself in no time, could end up with more than 10 orders....and keep the extra discount for the Zoners!

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:22 pm

ok how about we make the available dates

25/26 June

2/3 July

9/10 July

16/17 July

23/24 July

30/31 July

The 6 point injection kit will fit most 6cyl engines and the injectors have capacity spare!

with regards to the Certificate-the installation could be inspected by an approved LPG fitter, and a cert issued for circa Ãƒ”šÃ‚£45.

chu346-We're considering meeting up on one of the above dates, and doing the fitting in a group environment-so we have plenty of people to help/consult!

Be there!!

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:25 pm

Have you got a link for LPG KIT DIRECT ?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:54 pm

Hi very interested
as all ready run 200bhp octivia turbo on lpg , its great
and got the e30 planning to convert it
where in the country are u thinking of doing this ?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:13 pm

Just reading with interest about the lpg plans,just a few things really,you still have to start your engine on petrol,so not really a good idea to change the fuel tank for an lpg one,and also it may be around half the price but some engines mpg drops dramatically on lpg somtimes as much as half your usual mpg,not all just some,so what in theory sounds good can actually not save you a great deal of money really.
Sorry to bring some possibly bad news to you guys,just thought i would give you a few of the bad points of it too.

Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:18 pm

Borderbmw - I don't know where you got this misinformation, but:
i) You do not change your petrol tank for an LPG one. The space released by removing the petrol tank on an E30 is totally impractical for fitting a LPG tank of any usefull size. The LPG tank in my touring has a total capacity of 53 litres, and fits completely in the spare wheel well.
ii) You do not have to start the engine on petrol. I usually start on petrol for the first cold start of the dat and switch to gas as soon as I am out of the garage and start moving. This is to pass a little petrol through the injectors to stop them gumming up. For the rest of the day I usually start on gas.
iii) Fuel consumption increases by approx. 20%. This is because liguid propane is less dense than petrol and contains 20% less energy per litre. A kilogram of LPG contains about the same energy as a kilogram of petrol.
If your consumption increases by more than 20%, then quite simply, your system is faulty or not set up properly.

Actual savings, in practice, vary considerably because of the wide variation of the price of LPG throughout the country - From about 29p per litre to 44p per litre.
Where I live, the price four years ago was 39p, and now stands at 42p.
I usually claim my fuel cost saving is 40%. It's actually a bit more than this, But if I tell people to expect 40%, then they won't be dissapointed.
That's 6p+ saved for every mile I drive. 10,000 miles X 6p = Ãƒ”šÃ‚£600
This is achieved with an LPG system that is primitive by today's standards. The more modern system that I'm going to fit to my M50 engined touring should save even more.

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:45 am

Well,the part about the fuel tank i was just covering it as it the fuel tank replacement was mentioned by gwynleym10 in an earlier post,my apologies i didnt explain fully about the first start of the day needed petrol,not all of them,and 3 vehicles i know that have been converted have all lost economy,as i said some vehicles not all vehicles.

i apologise if i didnt explain myself fully.

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:48 am

A few years ago the LPG conversion industry was seen by many as an easy way to ritches, and as such attracted more than it's fair share of total cowboys. Some of the "fully qualified" people doing conversions I wouldn't trust to change the engine oil in my car.
As a result of these poorly done conversions, there are indeed some vehicles whose economy and performance have suffered greatly by having a LPG conversion, But the fact remains, that a PROPERLY done LPG conversion will save you a minimum of 40% on your fuel costs, and if your lucky enough to live near Cribbs Causeway, near the M4-M5 junction, then the savings can be as high as approaching 60%.