New Thread *problems found*

[JAMZ]

Still awaiting Jon to return PM's and Call's and as i cant wait any longer il start this thread to get some answers and fresh visits:

Took the Oil feed off the turbo today and cold feed, while holding the shaft still i started the engine...oil was pissing out of the feed like theres no tommorrow..no wonder ive blown fekin seals and charge pipes,IC are caked in the stuff ..

To give you an idea i used a small 'Gold Blend' glass coffee jar..it filled this jar in 6 seconds! ....on idle! this is very frustrating as i didnt set this up, neither do i have much knowledge of this though i am learning.

That crappy tap either has no flow or too much flow and nothing in between because of the knuckle inside.. its a normal 10mm tap for yer water etc..you know the ones and the actual plastic tap itself has hardly any resistance so even if i were to get it right i wouldnt like to chance it under pressure not opening...i cant get an in between,it not humanly possible.

This feed needs to be dripping on idle and no where near a flow like it is..this ive found out from not just mechanics but real turbo tech's who know there stuff but there just too far away fro me to take the car which atm i cant drive .. so i take charge pipes off the IC and it literaly drips out the hose as i take it apart..up near the TB its pretty clean though which is good..

So with the feed as good as i can get it which is 75% reduction on what it was ive superglued the tap..real bodge i know but i cant take the chace of that opening anymore till i completley change this oil feed setup..with the charge pipe still off i start the engine...oil is seeping up the oulet and over it,i look inside and i can literlay see it coming out of the housing joint which i take it would have a seal there..

Even if this is not my sole problem i dont think stem seals would cause that much oil to move that quickly out the turbo not even if all seals were non existant...so basicaly im 90% sure seals have blow because of way too much oil been forced through the unit..

whats changed from Jon's car to mine i do not know but its not working right now and i want it sorted asap an Auto box was all that was different..that tap is dodgy now period..

Can someone please get me a link/quote on this Misubishi TD04 repair/seal kit..

pulling my hair out............... again! (im actualy bold now..no really)

[JAMZ]

surprise surprise.. stuck already cuz i got fekin idea what im doing..






Im followoing this guide:

http://www.kickflop.net/wp/?p=21&page=2

This unit is the 11G and not the 13G but there more or less the same..

ive took the nuts of the shaft after marking both for balance issues..no blade section is coming off as it says should do..my whole bloomin shaft is still in the housing and i cant see anyway to get it out cant believe im even attempting this sh$t

those pictures he has while hes marked the shaft for balance..he can see both end of the shaft,both sets of blades... i cant, one side of mine is still inside the housing..theres no screws,nuts nothing to get it out

3rd picture of mine down you can see what could be a clip with 2 lil holes init on the housing...that wont budge at all if thats what it is and he hasnt got that 'clip' in his pictures either so something is different here....tbh im not sure i should even be attempting this

[Demlotcrew]

Jamz i would like to know why your Turbo Experts think that the oil should just drip? It might just drip on the return but not the pressure line.

The turbo barings/seals have gone thats why the charge pipes are full of oil not becuase the feed is 'too strong'

Andrew

[gcorky]

i think he means the bearing needs to be feed oil with no great pressure,but anyway
turbo killers :no oil,not shutting down properly(revving or driving and not aollowing oil to circulate for a few minutes-not doing this bakes engine oil and thus distroying bearings and seals,shit oil dont help either.

[Demlotcrew]

Well the way i understand it is oil pressure is needed on the spindle/barings
just the same way as on the caps/big ends/crank in the block.
The oil creates a small film where there is no contact between the metals
I just cant see how too much pressure would be bad/incorrect because like
you said oil which stays in the chamber will burn and clog the line and destroy the turbo.

On a turbo car you must not use anything but fully synth!

Andrew

[JAMZ]

Great but that doesn t help me fellaz

I tried to punch that what looks like a clamp/spring out (my 3rd pic down with the lil holes in it/housing) but it wont budge..not even a lil bit so i dont seen how this whole shaft is surposed to be out of the housing by now...Jon has clocked this and i got no idea what hes done to it if anything hence why i wanted his suport right now..

when i was checking it this morning it was that very join but inside which was allowing Oil to piss out the charge side..could actually see it rise up and out so i need to get in there to change the seal or whatever at least

[JAMZ]

Well the way i understand it is oil pressure is needed on the spindle/barings
just the same way as on the caps/big ends/crank in the block.
The oil creates a small film where there is no contact between the metals
I just cant see how too much pressure would be bad/incorrect because like
you said oil which stays in the chamber will burn and clog the line and destroy the turbo.

On a turbo car you must not use anything but fully synth!

Andrew

M8 if there is too mcuh feed/oil into a turbo its got no where to go and it will blast its way past every seal you have..oil was finding its way out of the centre section clamp,the oil return nut,the cold side feed and charge pipes.. got nothing to do with shaft bearings though they might be cooked too..its purely too much oil be put through... this is wht most here are using 4-5mm inside bore max on the oil feed lines so its restricted..this setup is using 10mm inside bore copper piping..

too much oil will kill yer seals if prolonged and at least blow oil straight through em

[Demlotcrew]

M8 if there is too mcuh feed/oil into a turbo its got no where to go

It does, out the return. It flows through the turbo then into the sump.

Andrew

[Ant]

the line between not enough and too much is quite a fine one with regard to turbos, they require volume @ low pressure, more @ higher rpms , but you can have too much pressure @ the core

with regard to the bearings, they are the oil bath type , so unlike the plain shells in the bottom end, they rely on a small pool in the lower section of the core to lube the bearings and cool the whole assy, if theres a 270degree bearing the oil will take up the "slack" that can sometimes be felt with no pressure in the core

Carl, to remove the comp housing remove the circlip and the outer will come free.

then undo the nut securing the compressor wheel in place.

next the fun bit.

if you have a gas hob this is easy.... light the burner, and place the turbine wheel assy into the heat, allow to warm for a few minutes then stand for a few more.

the heat should assist in wheel removal, same applies to the comp but dont get that too hot, the alloys employed are a little more fragile than the hot side

HTH

(typo edited, read better now Andrew ??)

[Demlotcrew]

they require volume @ low pressure, more @ higher rpms , but you can have too much, the preeure @ the core

Ant an oil pump produces less pressure at idle than at 5000 rpm ???

Andrew

[JAMZ]

Hi Ant,

The circlip is the one in my 3rd pic with the 2 lil holes init..dude ive smacked tha with a hammer and punch and it wont budge not even a mm...IS it that circlip that is holding this whole unit in place right now..cuz as far as im aware i shoudl be able to see both ends now and not just one

And i got an electric hob..lol

[WillG]

you need some big circlip pliers to get a flat ring like that out really

[JAMZ]

How big? that aint no small flat ring..lol

[WillG]

well i got some in set and big ones have a ratchet on aswell to make it easy, they are quite expensive tho, internal circlip or snap ring

[JAMZ]

typical.. nealry as typical as me having to remove the whole dam manifiold just to get this turbo off cuz obvioulsy i couldnt just get to the bolts as it was..oh no that would be too easy

How much shyte did that manifold give me 2 days ago to fit right...

That border line you have that says ''How much more of this **** can i take before i give up'' is getting real real close

[Jon_Bmw]

As promised I'd try and help on here when and if i can. That circlip, needs to come off, with either very strong circlip pliers OR you can use to allen keys then clamp them with a pair of mole grips, whilst holding the upper part of the allen keys away from each other. Basically a cheaper circlip plier.

On the oil front, yes its a 10mm pipe, but that restrictor stops it becoming a 10mm pipe and reduces it down to about 3-5mm as long as it hasn't been adjusted..

Are you certain the oil return is blocked/bent/scummed up from hard driving and then just turning it off Because the oil should easily be able to exit the turbo on idle even if that 10mm pipe was left unrestricted!

HTH

[JAMZ]

Firsly that restrictor does nothing hardly at all.. im not gunna make it up,you wanna see it for yourself be my guest..its either off or too much..i got it as close to dripping as i can but its still too much if what ive been told is right..

Secondly i had the oil return pipe off 3 days ago and it was running through..flowing through should i say in idle which again is too much...ive drove the car 20 miles since a oil change/oil filter and sump off cleaning all the crap from the bottom.. its not blocked from 'hard driving' and if it gets blocked that easily then that needs to revised too as that will kill the turbo..again

[JAMZ]

Ok peeps.. need yer help once more...

Basicaly these are a few shots i took while taking my Turbo apart.. Oil was everywhere and was in parts it shouldt be..ie past seals etc which is what i expected.. i cant tell if seals have gone which isnt surprising but is annoying

can you see anything untoward and also there are lines on the shaft... this normal to some extent?

PICS:








Cheers

[gcorky]

looks like its been cooked!

[JAMZ]

Thats not what i wanted to hear..how the hell can it be cooked with too much oil? unless it was already like this

Please dont tell me that

[JAMZ]

Another closer pic:



That dark area is where the Bearing sat/spun so that is just Oil stained

[gcorky]

the shaft is blued,darkened due to heat as already stated-oil starved or cruddy/poor lubrication .then taking out bearings seals and pissin oil out.

[JAMZ]

So this all means? if you please

[gcorky]

If turbocharger oil flow is restricted over longer periods (over and above 10 seconds) the turbocharger bearing system will show signs of heat discoloration as well as polished and burnished surfaces. This type of failure is commonly known as oil starvation.



Insufficient oil supply can be attributed to the following:


Broken or restricted oil feed pipe.


Long periods of non-use.


Low or no oil in sump.


Low engine oil pressure due to malfunctioning lubrication system.


The use of sealants can result in restricting the oil flow.

Re-fitting a turbocharger without adequate priming.




Dirty oil damages the turbocharger by causing heavy scoring of critical bearing surfaces. To avoid damage, oil and filters should be of a quality recomended by the OEM. These should be changed when a new turbocharger is fitted and at regular intervals according to the vehicle/engine manufacturers specification.



Dirty oil damage could result from:


Blocked,damaged or poor quality oil filter.


Degraded lubrication oil.


Dirt introduced during servicing.


Malfunctioning oil filter by-pass valve.


Engine wear or manufacturing debris.





Failure from excessive exhaust temperatures or shutting the engine down without allowing time for the turbocharger to cool down results in carbon build-up. It is recommended that you idle the engine for 2 to 3 minutes to cool the bearing system before shutting down. Turbine end heat soak into the bearing housing results in oil carbonisation and corrosion of the bearing system.

The main damage occurs to the shaft seal ring and grooves, turbine end bearing and bearing housing oil drain cavity (blockage).



Causes:


Blocked air cleaner/excessive intake restriction.


Hot shutdown of engine.


Degraded oil quality carbonising in service.


Infrequent oil change intervals causing oil breakdown in service


Air and gas leaks.


Faulty fuel injector pump/injectors.

[gcorky]

endless causes but :improper shutdown and starvation(including not priming on fitment,10 seconds without oil is enough to kill it.)look favourites!

[gcorky]

http://www.turbo.com.sg/tech_damage_analysis.htm


some pics for ya.

[JAMZ]

Cheers m8. handy site

.i knew what caused it but my question is....is it knackered?

Maybe the photos are a bit misleading? there isnt any Blue scorch marks anywhere on the shaft but there are the small lines here and there but take into account its age..surely some will be visible by now..

This has been primed and i know for a fact that no oil starvation has occured since ive had it and run with it be it not that long

[gcorky]

what do you get in the kit ?
i sold my cozzy turbotechnics t3 to blingsta for 120 odd i think and can pick up most t3 cozz units for a little less.
if shaft is scored its buggered m8-fine tolerences here m8,p.s the carbon would cause starvation.

weigh up the avenues mate before you shell out.

[fuzzy]

the seals on mine have failed 3 times this year due to a fault in the casing,i had oil spraying through the intercooler as well.i could have kept replacing seals but they would have kept failing,i cut my losses on that £900 recon turbo and bought a brand new one for the same price and the cars never ran better atm.my oil feed is a small bore size,around 6mm but the return to the sump is 19mm.i was told the oil should only drip through the return ,certainly not fill a cup in 6 seconds.the most important thing is to let the engine idle for at least a couple of minutes every time before shutting down to cool which can become a pain,or fit a turbo timer which allows it to run on after youve removed your keys.id recommend you let a turbo specialist look at it to prevent you throwing good money after bad if it is fcuked.pitted or scored shafts are caused by poor servicing(oil changes),always fit an oil feed filter to keep the shite out.a polished or shiny shaft is caused by oil starvation.all things that would have taken a while to cause problems.sorry i cant help more but good luck

[JAMZ]

Thks G/Fuzz

I didnt check this Turbo before i brought it as i knew nothing about em...fuckin stoopid thing to do in highnsight..

So i dont know wether it was done here or was done before..who knows,last time i used it it was pulling nice as it should so i need to know for sure wether this if porked or not..

this is a modified TD mani/turbo from a 525 as far as im aware.. so if i change Turbo's i need either a completely new mani which im not preapred to pay out for as the only reason i went down this avenue is i could afford it at the time OR i get an adapter made up from this one to something else.. i could get photos of this one but its like a basic shape drawing of a house... square with a retangle on top with 3 fixings..and havent seen it on any outher TD04 units :S so i cant even look at another unit less of course i pay through the nose at the scrappie then no guarantees thats its good

not to mention the whole setup would have to change..

Why the fuk is all this happening to me?

Been dicked about by muppets and got no where... still cant use my CaB and basiclay really starting to regret the whole thing

[fuzzy]

if its any consolation its not just you,ive just finally sorted out my smoking issues after spending 2G on a new head and piston rings and another 2G on turbos and nearly a years worth of grief and unfortunately theres no guarantees it wont all go bang again .in fact the only gaurantee is that it will,its just a matter of when :roll:i refuse to be beaten though and would never give up,youve just got to get used to the very high maintainance.

[JAMZ]

i hear yer m8 but this isnt a bulk standard e30 here..not saying yours is BTW but ive spent 7k already..this whole venture was only looked at cuz of prices involved..no way would i spend 'another' 2-3 k on a turbo setup.. im just not in that position finachanly with my house purchase and outher debts etc..

IF it were an e30 i brought for 1-2k then fair enough but its pretty highly modded as it is..

Going back to Stock is looking like the best way forward atm.. cut my losses..

You dont wanna know what im thinking doing to certain fukin people right now.. buts its wrong i know but i havent even got 30 enjoyable miles out of the dam thing and i cant help thinking that a bit more 'support' could of helped me out here if indeed its fecked

I got to find out if this is cooked... that is pinicle right now before i go off on a tandem

[JAMZ]

By the way.. what suggests this shaft will be unusable and not working?

I didnt hear any noises/whines when i last used it..and its not blue..just clutching onto straws here

[gcorky]

knackered shafts wouldnt really be noticed by performance but by bearing/seals out of spec and allowing oil through!if its scored forget it,then it needs measuring to make sure its within serviceable tolerances-any specialist will say the same.

or clean it up and take your chances,and recon yourself.

whats in the repair kit?

[JAMZ]

nearly everything bar the shaft and conpressor... both bearings are there,various washers,plate,both seals and nuts..nearly everything you can take apart