Upping the compression ratio with light weight pistons

Discuss general engine, turbo and supercharger conversions in this section

Moderator: martauto

Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm

tim_s wrote: oh yeah, that figures. how much are you talking about increasing the chamber size by? do alpina do the same on their heads? how much clearance are you going to leave between the piston and the chamber on the bits where the piston protrudes?
I'm hope fully going to get some pictures tomorrow of an Aplina chamber. It's all guess work till then.

I'm guessing they just ported the ports and reshaped the chambers to suit the pistons, a new head casting might have been to expensive so unlikely i hope ! ? :)
m10man
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Australia

Post Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:57 am

Hey Andy, if you are interested, the M30 specialist we are using to build the track cars engine has the pattern for the HC Alpina Group A pistions that work with the E34 head. He is going to get a few sets made up soon, with the pound being so strong against the aussie dollar they would work out fairly reasonable I reckon. He also has the pattern for the Alpina Group A head and can do the reshaping. :cool:
Image
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:12 pm

m10man wrote:Hey Andy, if you are interested, the M30 specialist we are using to build the track cars engine has the pattern for the HC Alpina Group A pistions that work with the E34 head. He is going to get a few sets made up soon, with the pound being so strong against the aussie dollar they would work out fairly reasonable I reckon. He also has the pattern for the Alpina Group A head and can do the reshaping. :cool:
Sounds interesting but i'm going to see if i can get these pistons to work with my ported head, i'm getting an Alpina head with a crack in it to copy the shape from so it takes the guess work and a lot of hassle out of the job.

If it still looks to hard for me to do then i'll ship both heads to the place that ported mine for him to copy the pina shape chambers on to my head.

But being a tight git and wanting the job done ASAP i hope i can do it my self :)
m10man
E30 Zone Newbie
E30 Zone Newbie
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Australia

Post Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:50 am

No worries mate, thought I would let you know just in case. I like doing things myself too, more satisfying and control. You always take more care with your own things. Most things arent rocket science anyhow, once you know how to do it properly. Should be a nice engine when finished.
Image
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:26 pm

Andy im just about to build up a B10 bi-turbo so if you need any pis of the chambers/pistons/rings/anything else. Please let me know. (I know you dont have a bi-turbo bottom end but there might be other parts you might be interested in seeing)

Andrew
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:45 pm

Cheers Andrew, unfortunately the pistons and the combustion chambers will be differant i'm afraid :(

Can you send me some pictures any way as it's always handy to have pictures of these rare parts for future referance :)

a*dot*law47*at*ntlworld*dot*com

What are you using the motor for ? Kos's M3 ?

I'm going to take the sump off mine soon so i can see the M5 rods and oil squirters, i guess you will have these parts as well ?
User avatar
hoshy
E30 Zone Wiki Guru
E30 Zone Wiki Guru
Posts: 4118
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Munich

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:17 pm

interesting read guys. good luck with it andy!!
E46 M3 CSL but dreaming of another E30.
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:21 pm

Andy im doing a S38 3.8 right now which had some 'interference' issues, do you want pics of that?

Andrew
Ant
Retired Team Member
Retired Team Member
Posts: 10496
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: PD+E dept :D

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:31 pm

dude I'll take some B10 Bi-sexual pix, usual email addy plz mate !
Product Development and Endurance for Delphi.

Original performance chips, original works not unlicensed copies :D Email FTW
WillG
E30 Zone Regular
E30 Zone Regular
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Cheltenham

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:12 pm

Try spray some telfon spray on the head if it stick to much, what about the white stuff they use to seal around glass on wooden framed windows it takes a while to dry I know that and isnt elastic like blutac.
Dan318-is
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 8006
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey/London

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:38 pm

Ant wrote:dude I'll take some B10 Bi-sexual pix, usual email addy plz mate !
me 3 ! can you PM them?
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:38 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:Andy im doing a S38 3.8 right now which had some 'interference' issues, do you want pics of that?

Andrew
Yes please :cool:
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:40 pm

Demlotcrew wrote: 'interference' issues
Do you mean bent valve sydrome ? :)
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:20 pm

How about putting the blu-tak on the piston with a piece of clear sarnie bag over the top.

That way, the blu-tak can deform, but not stick to the head, and the sarnie bag's probably only, ooh say 0.04mm thick (it's so sad that I just measured one!)
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:08 pm

Sounds like a good idea, i think what i'm going to do is to dummy fit the knackered Alpina head to see how much clearance i should have and then try to copy it.

Your bag ideas got me thinking, what about using a small dollup of glass fiber paste type stuf ?

Put it in the bag, dummy fit the pina head, move it carefully to TDC, wait 15 mins, dummy fit my head with the glass fiber shape and if it won't go past TDC then it needs more grinding ?

Mind, if i've got the pina head to copy from it shouldn't be to hard to get the shape 90% there fairly quickly touch wood ! :)
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:31 am

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me!

Only possible draw back might be that with the deformable blu-tak or something, you can see where the clearance is tight, whereas with the solid glass-fibre, you'll have more of a go/no-go gauge as it'll either fit or it won't.
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
gareth
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 11009
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: hastings, east sussex

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:55 am

Demlotcrew wrote:Andy im just about to build up a B10 bi-turbo so if you need any pis of the chambers/pistons/rings/anything else. Please let me know. (I know you dont have a bi-turbo bottom end but there might be other parts you might be interested in seeing)

Andrew
if you have any pics, i'd be very interested to see them too mate... may spur me on to turbocharge my M30 one day!!! :D

andy, how about some plasigauge? they do larger thicknesses than are usually used on bearing journals, up to 1.75mm which should be plenty.

if you add a second head gasket (or more until it turns) and do a dummy build, you can measure the gasket thickness and the clearance with plastigauge. some simple maths will give you your interference.

failing that, pop into the early learning centre and get some plasticine! you know you want to! :cool: you could even use it on your engine after you've played with it and trodden it into the carpet! winkeye
Sole founder of Fe2O3-12V it's a lifestyle
Image
LSD rebuilding / modification services provided, PM for details
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:59 am

Andy335Touring wrote:
Demlotcrew wrote: 'interference' issues
Do you mean bent valve sydrome ? :)
Yup, but i dont know what caused it, the timing was out but why?

Ill email pics as soon as i start to build the engine.

Andrew
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:44 pm

Thanks for all the sugestions and help guys :cool:

I'm still waiting on the pina head at the mo so i'll just have to wait a bit longer.
Demlotcrew wrote:
Yup, but i dont know what caused it, the timing was out but why?
Worn timing gear teeth/chain slipped ?

Defective timing chain tensioner ?

Crank chain sproket woodruff key missing ?
Ill email pics as soon as i start to build the engine.
Cheers dude :thumb:
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:29 pm

On the early ///M engines the lower sprocket is very tough! You cants take the thing off without some serious heat! And they dont tend to wear much if the car is serviced well. Now ive had the tensioner out (because i first wanted to re time it up, but then got the feeler gauges out and noticed i could fit 1mm in between the cam lobes and the buckets on all the Inlet valves, so i didnt need to retime it its a head off/engine out job )

Anyway the tensioner was fine it had plenty of resistance and no wear on the piston.

Ill find out more on Friday when i get to strip it down further.

(But never leave the car in gear while on a ferry!!!!)

Andrew
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:42 pm

On the early ///M engines the lower sprocket is very tough! You cants take the thing off without some serious heat!
Thats how they are on the M30 as well, heated up to fit the sprocket on to the crank
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:08 pm

Some random pics :)

Stripped/cleaned ready for grinding/reshaping of the chambers(oil spray bar is now removed as well), valve seats lightly greased to help sealing against water that i'm going to use to measure each chamber capacity to make sure they are all equal.


Image

Image

The block was painted red by the previous owner but i prefer black, its a bit to shiney but should dull down after a month or two

Image

I thought this engine deserves the good stuf 8) :)

Image

If i get time tomorrow the sump is coming off so i'll be able to post some picies of the M5 con rods and piston oil squirters.
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Post Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:31 am

Would be interesting to see what the squirters look like, as the Bi turbo block we have has jets drilled in the main baring caps. Like the M42.

Andrew
Dan318-is
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 8006
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey/London

Post Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:46 am

Demlotcrew wrote:Like the M42.

Andrew
:) :)
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:36 pm

Demlotcrew wrote:Would be interesting to see what the squirters look like, as the Bi turbo block we have has jets drilled in the main baring caps. Like the M42.

Andrew
Probobly the same ones as used in the M106(same block as the M30 more or less), like this.

They are quite nifty little things, you'd think they would rob the bearing of oil pressure but theres supposed to be a little valve in them that only opens after a decent pressure has built up. M30's/S38's are supposed to have fairly poor oil pressure up to about 1500rpm i read some where ?

<edit> i can't find the pictures i wanted to post but heres some one DIYing some squirters in to his turbo'd M30

http://mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=17492
Demlotcrew
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 13329
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: East Anglia

Post Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:13 pm

Yup thats the ones,

But the S14B25 has proper squirters that tap into the oil ways on the side of the block. Any of the two are good to have to cool the pistons.

Andrew
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:38 pm

More random pickies, stripped the knackered M30

Chocked the crank to get the big crank nut off

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
gareth
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 11009
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: hastings, east sussex

Post Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:43 pm

i can't believe you stripped that all down with a swiss army knife!

nice to see the insides of a M30 though, hopefully it'll be the last time i ever do! :D

looks pretty overengineered :D
Sole founder of Fe2O3-12V it's a lifestyle
Image
LSD rebuilding / modification services provided, PM for details
Turbo-Brown
Boost Junkie
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Aldershot, Hants

Post Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:31 am

What on earth is the point of those lumps of metal on the big end caps?!

Last time I saw something like that it was on a lawnmower engine and the lumps were there to make the oil splash around as it didn't have an oil pump.

Surely that's not their purpose on the M30?!
325i Twin Turbo (until 10am 01/12/07 :( )

www.air-in.co.uk free M20 exhaust and inlet flange
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:36 pm

I think it's some thing to do with balancing the engine ?
gareth
E30 Zone Team Member
E30 Zone Team Member
Posts: 11009
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: hastings, east sussex

Post Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:09 am

may be them fine tuning harmonics within the engine in an over-the-top-perfectionist kinda way!?
Sole founder of Fe2O3-12V it's a lifestyle
Image
LSD rebuilding / modification services provided, PM for details
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:10 am

Any one want to make a six cylinder glass top coffee table or a slightly heavy paper weight ? :)

It was supposed to be picked by a scrap man but he never called back.

Image
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:15 pm

I had to get my shovel out to dig this old thread up as it's been so long :)

Any way, heres a mini up date, first off a recap...

I bought that pina bottom end and found out the pistons hit the head :( The bloke who i got it from has still got the matching head which is knackered because it's cracked, he said if i cover the postage i could have it which would have been brilliant because i could copy the combustion chambers from it to mine but for what ever reason i've been waiting for WEEKS for him to post it to me and it's still not here :(

So i'm working a little blind and starting work on it now with out the pina head to copy from, the main thing is i don't know the proper squish height and wheather the squish height is even accross the whole of the squish area i'm working on ?

After a good dig around on the net i'm going with a squish height of between 0.9mm and 1.0mm, i think 1.0mm is 0.040" in imperial ? Do you know if this sounds about right ?

All i've done so far is to repeatedly(sp?) dummy fit my head with an old head gasket and smear some engineers blue marker stuf on the pistons so it marks the head where it needs grinding down when i turn the engine by hand.

Where i'm up to at the mo is that i've got two chambers ground out enough so that they just have enough clearance to go past TDC. With these two chambers done fairly care fully i have ground the bulk of the shape out of the other four chambers, next stage is to repeat the dummy fit/engineers blue/grinding process that i did with the first two chambers.

After that comes the tricky bit of grinding the squish clearance out. What would be handy to know is how thick the head gasket is when it's compressed so i could substitute the H/G for some thing the right thickness so i could carry on with the dummy fit/engineers blue/grinding process as it will be easier and a more accurate way of getting a consistant gap/shape.

Some one has sugested i could carry on with the dummy fit/engineers blue/grinding process with out a H/G but i'm guessing this will make the squish clearance too big.

Too big is almost as bad as to small because it can make an engine more prone to knocking so i've read, so people using a thicker H/G to lower the C/R might not be gaining much by chosing that way to lower the C/R ?

Any way, sorry for the long post heres a couple of pictures,

Part way through showing the engineers blue marking

Image

You can't see it very well from this picture but the new surface is about 22 degrees

Image

To measure the clearance i've bought some plastigauge as sugested by Gareth

Image
User avatar
hoshy
E30 Zone Wiki Guru
E30 Zone Wiki Guru
Posts: 4118
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Munich

Post Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:22 am

Top stuff Andy - coming along nicely :)

I can't help with the car - but google for 1mm in inches and you'll be pleasantly surprised :)

Also I noticed you weren't sure on the spelling of repeatedly - download "Bon Echo" it's the Alpha release of Firefox version 2 but it's stable and it's got a spell checker built in :cool:

I use it at work and it rocks :)
E46 M3 CSL but dreaming of another E30.
Andy335Touring
Married to the E30 Zone
Married to the E30 Zone
Posts: 7144
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:00 pm
Location: Long Eaton,Nottingham

Post Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:07 pm

hoshy wrote:
I can't help with the car - but google for 1mm in inches and you'll be pleasantly surprised :)
cheers, that's handy :thumb: