Most Powerful N/A 2.5 possible??

[Rosc0PColtrane]

2.5 lt M50

Most reliable, cause it's stock and will make some decent power 2... plus u can do the cams branches... etc leaving it still reliable, with a little more go. IMO

Thanks. That's what I'm thinking. Reckon I may start a new thread in the engine swap section so I can get all the info I need, from a novices perspective and it could be used then as a point of reference, even if the money doesn't materialise to do it!

[M5pilot]

M52 2.8 engine is the best budget solution by far.

Its much nicer as an engine than the M20 2.7, much more economical. It sounds better and goes aswell in stock form.

With some light mods you'll see a realistic 220-230bhp. A 2.7 putting out that power will idle like a pig and drink like a fish.

Doing an M52/M50 conversion is actually easier than doing a 2.7. Its a different type of job. In both ways your removing an engine and replacing an engine. the difference here is that rather than are farting about rebuilding an engine your using time doing wiring on the 24V units. Getting them into the engine bay is easy and mounts are reasily available.

The one ONE problem with the conversion is the exhaust manifold and it is here that everyone gets stuck. This is one the main reasons people dont go down this route because the manifold costs so much money.

Ste is doing an m52 conversion and we are looking to develop a manifold which is of the BTB style. the standard M50 M52 manifold is really not good at all for performance. If we can make something like the BTB for these engines then I can alot more people ditching the M20 altogether.

2.7's are really a total and utter waste of time when we can use much better engines.

One thing I'm going to re highlight to the power freaks - M20 putting out lots of power idles crap and drinks whereas an m52 modded still drives perfect, gives a much better torque spread and fuel economy.

24v vs 12V........no competition!

[Andreas]

I have to agree with M5pilot, the M52 2.8 is a much better engine than the M20 2.7 and had I not invested in a lot of parts for my M20 2.7 already, then I would have been better off putting a 328i alu block engine into my Alpina B3 project.

And yes, my 2.7 drinks a lot of petrol for what it puts out but I wouldn't say that the engines are "a total and utter waste of time". Bear in mind that they do have benefits such as being cheaper and simpler allowing more scope for the DIY guy.

I have no problem taking off the head and changing the cam on my M20 - throw in a VANOS system and already I'm losing interest in doing that part myself and as soon as other people work on your car, it is no longer YOUR OWN conversion.

A big part of owning the awesome E30 to me is playing around with it myself; planning and performing the mods is a lot of fun.


Alpina B3 2.7 Racecar under construction.

[Jhonno]

bla bla bla!

we have discussed this many times!

and i shall say it again, whats the point in throwing all that money on a 2.5 when u can go 2.7 along the way and get a shit load more torque.

like they say it's cubic capacity!

Anyone remember Dales old 325i sport? 6 branch,cam,diblas throttle bodies all the bits. did it make 200bhp? did it f**k it barely made 190.
He threw the money!

Find a good high comp engine?! they are all shagged. I'm glad this is a thread is made up with our made up wallets.

Sal u talk a good M20 along with the Bexley dyno behind u, so bloody build a 200bhp 2.5! Johnno u do it aswell! Go on piss the money up the wall! ho ho ho

I've put my money where my mouth is and went 2.7 with the pina.
There are not any tuning products out there now, that were not really available back in the E30 heyday. If hartge/racing dynamics couldn't do it back then, i doubt any of us chumps will now.

Where are we getting the fuel to run a 2.5 with a 304 race cam which won't idle at the traffic lights outside ace cafe?

All my opinion of course with a bit of my version of common sense thrown in!

extra capacity is not goin to make you 50bhp extra etc as ive said before, iirc a guy looking to take his 2.0 out to 2.1 (Vaux engine but still 2v per cyl) worked out he'd only gain 5-10 bhp most. i think there must have been something not right with dales to make those figures with that spec..

this thread was all about an imaginary wallet to make the most powerful n/a

i would build a 2.5 if i didnt have a much better engine in the form of the S50 sat in the garage waiting for me to sort a few things out and get it in (still ). a 2.7 is a good choice if your rebuilding a lump anyways, but the decent crank from the 24td is rare unfortunatley.

[bryang]

The standard M20 325 engine has 170 hp. Now consider that raising the compression by 1 point gives 5% power increase. So, if we change the compression from 9.5 to 12.0, we've gained about 20 hp.

Add a nice chip, performance air filter and replace the restrictive airflow meter with a hotwire mass air flow meter, we should get another 20 hp.

Put in a hot camshaft, add 15 hp.

Replace the cast iron exhaust manifold with branches / headers and do the rest of the exhaust and we should get another 15 hp (especially considering the above mods)

So. lets add up
170 + 20 + 20 + 15 + 15 = 240 hp

.

What a load of b@llox, it doesnt quite add up like that mate!

All these things individually or together will add BHP if chosen carfully, however, adding a camshaft and then re - mapping with a less restrictive inlet/air filter aint gonna give you 15BHP and then 20BHP to equate to 35BHP!

...and 20BHP from a change of c/r is pure fantasy.....

[Simon13]

the bullshit is on form here. Sal your opinions change from day to day, i don't think i've missed the point at all. Can we have a post from u not plugging btb, itg, carbon airbox's, h&R!

what is easier? building a 2.7 from a factory M20 engined car or converting to M50? grief with brake servos, exhaust, finding the right ratio diff, electric fans, cooling system, electronics (ECU) this list goes on, and they don't really go alot better than an M20 2.5.

I know cos i've driven one.

Yeah go for the 2.8! have fun getting over the EWS system, so adding to the fitting isssues with the M50, u now need the original keys and igintion barrel or it will never start. How big will trhe budget be for doing this conversion? more money i expect than building an M20 2.7

M20 2.7's are not bad on petrol and 2.8 are not alot better! my dads E46 325i auto is no better nor faster than my very own E30 325i auto.

Aren't alpina renowed for being conservative with their power and acceleration figures?

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Thought I saw a vanos based conversion at the Haynes track day, can't remember whos car it was, or the engine size, only it was effing quick.

I've started a thread in engine conversions, this sort of input would be greatfully received. As I've said, want to do a conversion, not sure what yet but need more than my 320i gives me right now. Will be on a budget and probably built from a novices point of view. So all the points about difficulties with exhaust manifolds with M50's etc are useful to me. My only comment is people have managed to do all types of different conversions, successfully, with different results. I just want to learn so I can make an informed decision Thanks guys!!

[M5pilot]

I will plug BTB, H&R etc as much as I want because its good stuff. Who are you to stop me?

With the help of Ian Haynes EWS is no longer a problem.

You've driven an M50 conversion - well so have others and alot of people know for a fact that it walks all over a standard setup 325i M20.

The M52 2.8 will spank your wanky 2.7 after its had the Alpina527 treatment and a remap.

I've owned more 2.7's than you and they have been in much better shape aswell. The fuelling was spot on and they are still thirsty.

My M50 Auto 525i sips fuel compared to any M20 engined car and the M52 is even better.

As for Alpina's power figures - a C2 in standard form is good for 190-200 bhp. Yours made 180 didnt it even with your fantastic RD pipes?

And yes you are missing the point. No one is saying the M20 is a shit engine. All thats been said is that a 2.7 is good, but for the effort and expense you can have a superior engine. Wouldn't be much difference in the cost.

[Simon13]

ohhh your personal digs really hurt me! ouch

What have u said at ace's? "was going to buy this car" , "i will copy that manifold" Why did u PM me a few days ago asking how my car is?! Isn't it obvious at Ace cafe we shouldn't talk as it's for the best of everyone who comes down every month.

I didn't buy it be the fastest, or the coolest. I bought it because it's alpina which i can play with and have fun.

U just said 2.7's are a waste of time, sort out your views muppet

Sal your old alpina was hanging was it not? hence the re shell. Strange that mine doesn't need a re shell because it's not rotton like your old one.
In fact most of your cars have been shitters or infact are tbh.

Oh the engine is suspect and down on power. I knew that when i bought it, mechanicals can be sorted, rotton shells can't and re shelling an alpina kind of ruins it don't u think?!

Enough of this as thread will get locked otherwise

[Ziggy]

Thought I saw a vanos based conversion at the Haynes track day, can't remember whos car it was, or the engine size, only it was effing quick.

That'd be Dave's - silly gearing & his driving made it seem even quicker!

[M5pilot]

You talk alot dont you.

All mouth no action. Lets see you call me muppet at the next Ace meet. On here your all Mr big but in real life your just a pussy.

Do you know why I said "I will copy that manifold"? A couple of people told me as I was walking past your car you shut the bonnet because you thought i'd copy it.

Like I need to copy it?? Its half a manifold!

And yes I was going to buy it until I found out it wasn't exactly what I was looking for. Glad I didnt!

As for my old car - My engine was wicked. The reshelled car was very nice the boys at Sytner were very happy about the reshell so your opinion really means nothing. Body was appauling yes. But I did pay peanuts for it.

If you stopped being so abusive towards members maybe less threads would get locked.

[M5pilot]

In fact most of your cars have been shitters or infact are tbh.

Jealous little school boy talk this.

Internet Warriors

[Simon13]

This is what i am dealing with here

Here's 2 PM's from Sal!

title SALE

From: M5pilot
To: Simon13
Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:44 pm
Subject: Sale!
cheers for mentioning H&R and BTB on that thread - it reminded a guy to buy some.

Well done!!

As they say, any publicity is good publicity!

Ho Ho Ho!

_________________
E30Zone Shop - 07725 234 540

BTB 6 branch (THE SNAKE) manifold Group Buy - 6/10 people required - pm for details


And another

Title: your car

Go see a doctor mate, you have hormone problems when you get behind a PC.

My cars are shitters says the man with the scabby bodied fucked engined Alpina. I was just trying to be nice at Aces. Why did I bother?

Your manifold is a fucking joke mate as its got some butchered on down pipes.

If I wanted to copy it BTB would have done it easily as Karan supplied me with some very detailed pictures.

I still have the email - I might aswell delete it as its of no use anyway.

_________________
E30Zone Shop - 07725 234 540

BTB 6 branch (THE SNAKE) manifold Group Buy - 6/10 people required - pm for details

i don't reply to these PM's nor do i PM Sal.

My bit done

back to the thread what we really need to do is get someone with the money and time to build a 2.5 which makes 200bhp! this will lay the ghost to rest.

Sal if i was your best buddy do u think my 325i auto with a scorpion centre box would make 200bhp on the bexley dyno? Maybe just maybe if i got bexleys to fit the centre box?

ho ho ho! (take one of my old lines why don't u)

[M5pilot]

Just trying to keep it off the forum as it should be.

No ones really interested in our arguements.

Here we go again about the Bexley Dyno. Boring!

Patick's E30 M3 S38 puts down 310bhp there......is that a lie too?
My Touring did 173bhp......
My old C2 did 200
3.6 M5 does 301
Silver C2 does 215

I guess its all made up on a piece of paper.

Bored of this.

Ho Ho Ho.....you stole that off Father Xmas!

[Turbo-Brown]

Anyway, getting back to the topic and away from slagging each other off!

How about dry sumping as a means of releasing power.

Seem to recall reading somewhere that some company making V8 engines out of two bike 4cyls had their efforts put on an engine dyno (nice and accurate!) with a wet sump and then a dry sump back to back and gained something like 38bhp just like that!

So, take a 171bhp 2.5, add dry sump lubrication, and if you're lucky you get 209bhp for your troubles without even touching anything else

[Ant]

Alex, CAD up a windage tray dude !

back to back with and without would be an interesting comparison.

Salman and Simon, Get a room !

[Karan]

can i just point out my downpipes were not butchered Sal, they were done very well as my cars performance showed as anyone who has been in it will testify-

as for 2.7s..... if you've got the money and want a stroker then do it!! if not.... then put an s50 or m50 in simple as that

Karan

[Andy335Touring]

Alex, CAD up a windage tray dude !

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/prod01.html

[E30BeemerLad]

OK so here's what my old shitter alegedly made after a head rebuild, car had done 100K at the time.

Engine M20 2.5 facelift
Polished ports & combustion chambers
recut valves
piper fast road cam
remap
k&n panel filter in standard airbox
FSE valve
scorpion dtm system (on standard manifold)

supposedly made 192bhp, my mate lost the dyno plot but distinctly remembered the power output as it was the same as the M50.

This is what will be going in my next E30

[Turbo-Brown]

Alex, CAD up a windage tray dude !

back to back with and without would be an interesting comparison.

Salman and Simon, Get a room !

Certainly would! Anyone got the sump off a block they wanna measure up?

My thinking would be along the lines of something which is fitted by sandwiching between the sump and the block which serves as a crank scraper and windage tray combined. EDIT> aah, well and truely beaten to it!

Would also be interested in the results from a proper dry sump system, but while the sump pan is fairly easy to make, the pumps are bloomin expensive!

[Turbo-Brown]

Hmmmmm, I'm extremely dubious about those trap doors.

What would compell them to close on cornering?!

They presumably hang down during normal operation yes?

If so, it's gravity making them dangle and gravity down here is 1g.

I'm guessing that there aren't many E30s which can make more than 1g of cornering force which a very simple vector diagram in anyone's mind tells us that those trapdoors will only get to a maximum of 45degrees!

[Chaos]

I've owned more 2.7's than you and they have been in much better shape aswell. The fuelling was spot on and they are still thirsty.

is this not down to the mid 80's technology that is the ecu
eg wud an m20 on decent management not return good mpg ?

[Rosc0PColtrane]

Thought I saw a vanos based conversion at the Haynes track day, can't remember whos car it was, or the engine size, only it was effing quick.

That'd be Dave's - silly gearing & his driving made it seem even quicker!

Cool, Dave's car is mental and he drives it like a hero!!!!

Well impressed. He knows his stuff too.

[gareth]

just thought i'd wait until everyone stopped ranting! can we have a seperate forum for blowing off at one another?

i do find it hard to believe that large power figures are so hard to acheve.

of the engines i've seen on here, only player6's one looks to be heavily modified (yes i do know about the extra capacity).

i come from messing around with old fords and had a MK2 escort rs2000. this in standard trim gives 108 bhp (54 bhp/litre). mine was bored to 2.1 litres, compression increased to 14:1 (back in the days of 5 star!!!), bigger inlet and exhaust valves, very high lift cam (13mm instead of 9mm RS spec) needing pocketed pistons, lighened and balanced bottom end, twin 45 dcoe webers, vacuumless dizzy, janspeed 4 branch and 2" straight through system. this then made 180 bhp (85.7 bhp/litre)

in full all-steel race trim the 2 litre ford pinto is capable of 240 bhp or more, on carbs. lets remember that this is a smaller capacity engine with less valves and dates back to a similar (low tech) era.

i have no doubt that an all-steel, properly gasflowed, high compression M20 with either carbs or TB's and a decent exhaust can make high 200's but nobody puts serious work into them. tuning nowadays is more about bolting on goodies than actually improving how the head breathes.

how many cars on here have big valve, gasflowed heads? not many i bet!

the reason being, for the price of a BVH, you can throw a M30 in and get 220 bhp which for all but Toby seems to be enough!

[M5pilot]

I've owned more 2.7's than you and they have been in much better shape aswell. The fuelling was spot on and they are still thirsty.

is this not down to the mid 80's technology that is the ecu
eg wud an m20 on decent management not return good mpg ?

Some people who have had the MAF conversion done say the MPG is improved.

I had stand alone management fitted to mine with no MAF or AFM but it didnt make a great deal of difference - but then it was mapped for maximum performance and not economy.

[M5pilot]

Gareth,

your right in saying that no one here really has a hig comp lairy engine.

If a 2.7/2.8 can make between 230-260bhp then a 2.5 can most definately come close.

Alpina C2 engines don't tend to pass the 215bhp mark even with a slightly lairier cam and better management and low comp (8.8:1) 2.5 with the same cam and a few bolt on mods can get very close to 200bhp. The main difference between the two being the low end torque.

However, it's always the large expense of building such a high spec 2.5 that stops people from doing this.

[Morat]

Gareth,
However, it's always the large expense of building such a high spec 2.5 that stops people from doing this.

That, and the 8.8 CR just shouts "PLEASE TURBO ME" I guess....

[M5pilot]

Yeah there is that!

So few owners have followed this path even though Ant and a few others have quite clearly shown how quick they can be on the road. The torque is everywhere and plentiful.

Myself and Ant will be doing a few Santapod style tests of the turbo (low boost) and an Alpina C2 2.7.

I'm pretty sure the Alpina will be easily beaten.

[pacerpete]

The M50 and M52 engines are 'better' than M20s ,that goes with out saying,its called progress. BUT it is not straightforward nor cheap to do a PROPER conversion and if you are going to bite the bullet and spend the money and mutilate your car, the M52 is the only way to go , the only snag is a later bmw 'campaign' engine (i.e no nikasil wrongness ) with gearbox and ALL ancilleries AND numbers and a receipt will cost £1500, by the time it is fitted make that £3000 +++(propshaft,diff,manifold,exhaust etc etc !),that is a lot of till to spend on a 15 y/old turd.
2.7s done sensibly will make 200 bhp without getting exotic or wasting £4/5000, your car will look and drive as it should,(just faster!) and your car will still have resale value. If a 200bhp e30 isn't fast enough buy something that is or better yet buy an M3 !

[dodgydodger]

right well!
moddifing your 325 is all verry nice BUT it is expensive to do, expensive to run and to be fare evan when they are standerd they aint cheep to run!
and evan when they are moddifed and you have spent loads of money they still dont produce real horse power! and evan if they did you dont need it all the time!
so my awnser to this thred and to any one thinking of spending serios money on there 325 is to think NITROS<<SPELLING?
i have looked in to it since i have raced my sport down at santa pod!
the way i see it is like this..spen a few grand to get 190hp-210hp say...OR...spend £600 on a 150bhp nitros kit! that would bring yor e30 up to 321bhp slightly quicker dnt you think? and cheeper!
all this crap abot engines blowing up is crap! a chap i work with used to fit nitros for a living down at andyrobinsons race cars and he said that he has never herd of a car going bang on nitros! its all mifs! just think it is only an increase of 25bhp per cylinder!

so we have cheep horse power that is switchable on or of it costs £4 per ILb! and your car costs the same to run!

[oguz327]

Here we go, can of worms, open

[gareth]

nitrous if done well can yield more power but only by virtue of the fact you can add more fuel. it has a much higher oxygfen content than 'air'.

oh, 150 bhp of nitrous on a 171 bhp engine does not give you 321 bhp. the nitrous displaces a load of the potential air charge.

nitrous is only really much use on FI engines as it also cools the inlet charge. it's not really worth the effort on N/A engines as you DO NOT get the pub power figures quoted.

they can be cheaper to run if you use catering grade nitrous oxide though! it is used to froth whipped cream! if you don't believe me, look on a can of anchor whipped cream in safeway/tesco or whoever's nearest and you'll see nitrous oxide as the propellant!!!

NOS-CREAM injection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BIGJO]

Where is the best place to get the nitrous from? Is it easy to install? I don't have a clue myself but is tempting!

Jo.

[Theo]

NOS-CREAM injection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my car runs on nos-cream innit, 500 cow power bruv.

[graham_cab]

Theo, remember me???