fitted a btb monkey manifold yesterday

[Simon13]

Enjoyed yesterday fitting this in the heat! This was going to be interesting as the car it was going on was already a rapid 325i tech 1 sport

Initial impressions are it's quite well made, a dry run with an old exhaust in garage first helped to see how it fitted

few pic's before i started



this x pipe factor had me worried at the start as it didn't quite mate up the centre box very well, however it did it when on the car, and does not blow

Just a little comparison to the RD one! i can't help it

BTB

This has far more welds in it than my one, i'm not sure if this could be detrimental to overall performance?

Racing Dynamics

As it was being fitted to a tech 1 sport we had to move the header tank, clutch resvoir and windscreen washer bottle to gain enough space.

Fitted the rear section first

Then the front section. Some bloody fiddley studs on this one! God i need a ratchet spanners! lol



After this the x pipe factor went on and all was hunky dory! Whislt i was there i moved the oil filter housing 180 to face the front of the engine. This means we can get to it later on for oil changes. But u have to swap the 2 oil cooler pipes around to make it work.

I've still got this to do on my alpina! should be fun not

Then the fun part! car is now very flat low down below 3k revs, but to be fair revs like a bloody goodun from 4000rpm to the red line. The owner is very happy with the performance, but there isn't 15 bhp there now lol

[Demlotcrew]

Good work si, looks like you are becoming M20 specialist!

Andrew

[Simon13]

i enjoy manifolds! if only to see how they look fitted/sound! and how they effect the performance too

This did something to the car, defo made a difference on the arse dyno so it can't be that bad!

[Andy335Touring]

car is now very flat low down below 3k revs

May be he could do with a re-map to help make it better ?

[Simon13]

well thats the next step really. The car has this and a bbtb. We would of fitted the itg filter but u can't mount it in thin air

what i'd like to know is who can map the standard motronic system?

As i understand it's not a bad system but quite complicated.

Seems to me the one of the reasons to go standalone is to get rid of the airflow meter

[Simon13]

well thats the next step really. The car has zone chip and a bbtb. We would of fitted the itg filter but u can't mount it in thin air

what i'd like to know is who can map the standard motronic system?

As i understand it's not a bad system but quite complicated.

Seems to me the one of the reasons to go standalone is to get rid of the airflow meter

[Andy335Touring]

If he's got the dosh get him to see Ant for a MS set up ?

[Simon13]

i don't think they want to go that far, hes happy as it is for now!

[Dan318-is]

pre 87 325s run jetronic dont they!? dont even know if you can buy new EPROMs for these?

figured out the oil leak yet si?

[oguz327]

Many thanks for all your help yesterday simon, ur an absolute f@cking legend
Well pleased with the extra performance, had a good redline session on the way home
Its lost a little grunt on the lower end below 3000 rpm but after 3.5-4k it absolutly flys, deffo a plenty more there.
Sounds awsome too, and its still not broken in propperly, i am told it will get more bass, bring it on.
Still having trouble with the centre section rubbing/knocking on the gear box/heat sheild. probaly need to take the exuast centre and back box off and start again in a slightly different position mabie with some new brackets?
On the whole id deffo recomend this, sounds quality and more power, but allow a good day to fit and mabie take the center section and back box off before you start, fit the 6 branch and work your way back refitting every thing.
Thanks again for the parts and help si, nice one.

[M5pilot]

Glad to see you happy Oz!

oz was so happy he called me this morning to talk about the manifold.

Well done Simon on fitting it, it doesnt look like an easy job.

The welds will not make any difference on performance, its very neatly done.

To avoid the welding some seriously expensive machinery is required.

If its made that much difference that it can blatantly be felt on the arse dyno then its gotta be making the differences quoted.

The dyno graphs show a slight loss of power under 3000rpm and then a steady increase in power all the way to around 6000rpm.

All good fun!

[Ant]

Mapping the Motronic is not an issue as long as you have an emulator you can alter the map in real time and then export the final map to the eprom and job done, this is how the Zone chips were born guys.

I dont recommend anyone buy an emulator and start messing about though, will 100% end in tears.

MS(insert S/alone of choice) is just another way to expolit the capabilities ogf the engine for more go,better economy and gives you the end user the abillity to tweak without having to pay £Â£Ã‚£ again, the software is yours to use and and when required, with no additional outlay.

AFM is a good metering device TBH, provides damping to help smooth the delivery, try an Alpha-N alg'd car and you'll see why AFM/MAF are still the #1 metering device for mass production, indeed they replaced the MAP sensor in the early 80's so in a way were going retro here, to get gains.

metering heads for daily use, MAP/ blended Alpha N to split the diferance and straight Alpha N ( without map en/unrich ) for flat out racing.

[M5pilot]

Remapping of the Motronic can be done by Bexleys or anyone else who has the equipment to do it.

It aint cheap though. £400 + VAT for a complete dyno remap (not a quick drive down the road!).

Avoid at all costs the muppets who don't use a Wide band somewhere in the exhaust and say they can remap on the road. What exactly they are doing is beyond me without a Air/fuel mixture reading. Your downpipes have a Lambda boss built in for this very reason - accurate mapping.

Other than that there is MS from Ant and he does use a Wide band and takes air temp into account aswell. Timing and fuel can be done at very small increments in the rev range. Oh, and you'll lose your AFM aswell!

[Dan318-is]

so ant, in your opinion what is better MAP or MAF?

[Ant]

so ant, in your opinion what is better MAP or MAF?

no straight answer there M8, MAF is possibly the best when in tip top condition, but with oil film buildup thats not the case 4 ever as it affects the resitance of the wire, and therefore the output for given airflow.

MAF is basically a cheaper to produce flap type AFM, with no moving parts, hence its seen as the all conquering metering device.

there are advantages to the MAF granted, but only in an OE setup, as a retrofit , debatable til the cows come home/pigs take off.

Straight alpha -N gives the best response, but without a MAP to trim the tiny increments could be seen as a lower resoloution soloution, and therfore the least flexible in everyday use.

MAP only sits between Alpha and MAF/AFM, blended Alpha with TPS and MAP taken as load is probably the best compromise, but certainly not the easiest to map for.

All only my opinions though, based upon my experiences with them, not to be taken as gospel guys !( or quoted out of context)

[Demlotcrew]

Ant the E46 CSL uses alpha-n, so its possible to map that correctly. Im so sure it possible to beat BMWs original mapping, i know for a fact that if one were to map a car tomorrow come December it will be a total dog to drive.

Andrew

[Simon13]

interesting stuff, these are my thoughts for my alpina, is to rebuild as stock really, plus maybe a slightly more aggressive cam and the RD manifold.

Plus all the usual bits while your there, re balance bottom end, polish piston tops, bit more head work. Get it all back together and run in. Then if things can be improved on by tweeking the motronic i would do that and be happy with 210-215 bhp and torque

[Ant]

Ant the E46 CSL uses alpha-n, so its possible to map that correctly. Im so sure it possible to beat BMWs original mapping, i know for a fact that if one were to map a car tomorrow come December it will be a total dog to drive.

Not dissing Alpha N, depending on how fine a resoloution the pot gets( in this case V good !) it is very very effective.

you would need to revise the mapping to account for baro and ambient tempchanges, but not the base fuel map or timing , the transients need a once over,add Coolant and Intake related trim maps and Baro correction is sampled @ startup, evey cycle( with MS and MBE )or can be done realitime with an additional Map sensor

Lots of ways to skin a cat

[Dan318-is]

I thought MAP was less restrictive?

[M5pilot]

My C2 was setup using TPS and intake air temp. Throttle response was pure evil. Driveability didnt really suffer once it was mapped properly.

Ant did a good job on the racecar with MS. Was that TPS or MAP?

As Andrew says, 325i's respond really well to a cam. Even going 284/272 you don't lose much low end torque and there is a very good gain over 4000rpm.

A good manifold really makes a big difference as shown in this case. None of this Alpina/Fritz bitz wrongness!

[oguz327]

Cam may very well be the next step, trouble is i am not handy with a spanner.
Could be bit expensive, rebuild head and labor, got to be looking at about £700-£800 including cam, skim, all the parts and labor

[Dan318-is]

Ant did a good job on the racecar with MS. Was that TPS or MAP?

MS uses TPS and MAP mate, no cam sensor i dont think though (not sure how!)

[M5pilot]

Yes I know it can do both, most after market ECU's can use both inputs.

Some cars are setup on just throttle position and this can give some excellent results.

MAP is more commonly used for turbo cars.

[Dan318-is]

im thinking about going the SMT route on my Is, ditching that afm piece of poo and running a map with no restictions

also 500 quid cheaper than a maf conversion!

[M5pilot]

You won't gain a huge amount by just fitting a MAF on its own and using the SMT as a signal converter. To take full advantage you still need a remap by someone who knows how to remap.

Speak to Dave Walker and see if he will map outside just emerald software.

Not these guys who drive your car for 5 secs and reckon they just live mapped it or the guys who just reset the adaptation values.

[nadz325i]

gorgeous manifold the sound ,

wait till it beds in (the soot on the walls?),

find some tunnels,,,you will lurveeee it!

it is proper DTM loud, sound bad ass!!

[oguz327]

Cant wait
How long did yours take to bed in?

[nadz325i]

hmm, over about 100 miles, it started sounding different,

does your engine sound quite now? as in m50 style? no tappety noise?

[oguz327]

Sounds well loud over 4000rpms, propper dtm but on idle alot quieter and less tapety.
Its difficult to discribe the sound.
There a full scorpian system on there aswell which was allready fitted and is only 7 months old so once the btb beds in its gonna sound beastly.
Scorpion will probably get louder over the next year aswell.
Its not my daily driver so i cant see the loudness pissing me off.
Lovin it so far, just need to get a few problems sorted to fully enjoy it

[oguz327]

hmm, over about 100 miles, it started sounding different,

does your engine sound quite now? as in m50 style? no tappety noise?

what exuast set up have you got on your dude?

[Dan318-is]

You won't gain a huge amount by just fitting a MAF on its own and using the SMT as a signal converter. To take full advantage you still need a remap by someone who knows how to remap.

true there are not many gains to be had, but you loose the AFM so have no more worries with that, and can also tweak the spark and fuel timing. a piggyback is also a much more sensible option on a basiclaly stock 318is i think, fulll standalone is just unnecesary imo

Speak to Dave Walker and see if he will map outside just emerald software.

im a student with £0 in the bank!

[Giggz]

Great pics and manifold looks gorgeous dude.Hopefully getting mine fitted today weather permitting. Cant wait to hear the sound and feel the difference when driving! Heard nothing but good things about these bad boys!

[nadz325i]

hmm, over about 100 miles, it started sounding different,

does your engine sound quite now? as in m50 style? no tappety noise?

what exuast set up have you got on your dude?

i had a sebring, currently for sale.

sounds like mine, quite on idle and less tappety noise, super smooth, the cabin was quieter (not that it was noisey before), after 4kis all hell breaks loose haha...

btw my btb fitted perfectly with the sebring, no hitting, scrubbing with anything.

[supa_s1ngh]

oguz3001 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject:

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Cant wait
How long did yours take to bed in?

any part of the installation that was particularly difficult? as in parts not fitting to the head properly or space issues within the engine bay...?

just that, i know a mate having this install done and apparently he's having space issues in the engine bay...he has an 'f' plate E30 325