Help with juddering on 1988 320i

[Dr Firefly]

Hey guys, hope you can help
Was driving along motorway at about 90-100 for 40min and then stopped in a motorway service station. Car was acting perfectly normally till I stopped in a parking space, but then I tried to edge forward and it felt like the whole drivetrain had fallen to pieces - juddering like something was stuck. It still lurched forwards though, and by increasing the revs and putting the clutch on more gently it moved ok.

Before I began to worry about the clutch I checked the rear brake drums. But they were fine - not hot and no sign of locking up - took the wheels off to check.

I had to carry on driving, because my girlfriend's grandmother had just died and I had to get her to her family. There was lots of stopping and starting in traffic and it seemed that the car was ok when moving, but when setting off I had to have the revs really high to stop the juddering. The strange thing is this problem has only happened (twice) after I've been driving at high speed for a long period of time, so I'm thinking it must be heat related - maybe the plate's warped?

I'm thinking it's a clutch problem, as I'm also occasionally noticing when I downshift to 1st or 2nd I can feel whirring cogs as I engage the gear - things are still spinning in there - sometimes grates a bit. The action on the clutch pedal is quite high as well - within the last half an inch or so before it bites.

I know the easy answer is worn-down clutch plate, but does anyone else have any experience of these exact symptoms?

Would appreciate your help,
Thanks, Ian

[Cloggy Saint]

My 2.0 does the same after crawling along in traffic for a while. Like you say, the revs need increasing and the clutch has to be slipped to try and pull away smoothly.

[Z3I]

Are you sure the engine just wasn'y running over? Pre-ignition? Are you using cheap petrol. Give 2-3 tanks of Shell optimax, see if it improves. Check plugs too for cleanliness, gaps.
If Optimax or similar improves matters, consider running on it for a good 10 tankfuls. Cheap supermarket petrol (except that Tesco stuff) is crap. IMHO

[Martinaston]

Does the gearstick get hot ? and do you nkow if the gearbox has any oil in it.

[bigkev]

cant see you're clutch getting hot on long journeys if anything it will cool down because everything is locked up and not slipping unless it is slipping might be worth checking for slippage

[316iDude]

Why the fudge would the gearstick get hot? sounds like clutch is old and worn, has it been changed before?

[Ben1984]

I've got the same problem with mine, judder happened slipping the clutch in traffic after an hr on the motorway. Its going in to be looked at on Monday. When they diagnose the problem I'll let you know what it is...

Good luck!

[rickk]

Sounds like the typical 'clutch judder' problem common with these clutches. It IS strange however, that it happened when coming of the motorway, the clutch should be cool then.

I think your clutch is slipping causing it to overheat.

[Ben1984]

I don't think the clutch is slipping, because if i put the car in gear with the engine running and handbrake on, and slowly let the clutch up, the engine stalls without the clutch slipping...

[Brianmoooore]

Oil is getting on the clutch from a worn rear crank seal or excess crankcase pressure. Will probably burn off after a bit of clutch slipping.

[Dr Firefly]

How sure are you about that Brian? You sound pretty definite.

The gearstick isn't getting hot, and the car does stall when I put it in first with the handbrake on, so maybe it's not slipping.

But the fact that the action on the clutch is so high... top inch or so... could it just be the clutch plate's worn down. It's done 138k, and I don't know when or even if the clutch has been changed - what's the typical life of a clutch?

Thanks for the help so far

[e30bmlover]

cluch judder mate. iv got it on my 320 if i slip or hold the cluch down for too long. more so in the summertime. all i do is.... when i stop i take her out of gear! simple

[Martinaston]

Are you sure it's not a leak on the clutch master or slave cylinder's and it's actually the biting point that's moving? If the gears are spinning when you downshift it sounds like the clutch is not disengaging.
Put it in first gear and hold the clutch down for a while and see if the car starts to creep forward. It wouldn't hurt to check the reservoir either.

[Brianmoooore]

Oil contamination of the clutch plate doesn't always make the clutch slip, but it will make it judder when you pull off.
The oil also sticks the driven plate to the flywheel,causing it to drag, just like it's not disengaging properly.

[Dr Firefly]

Right,
The guys at my friendly local BMW specialist garage (who I've gotten to know quite well) say that it's probably just a worn out clutch, though it could be hydraulic as it's sometimes having problems disengaging.

The guy who owns the garage said this was a problem that normally affected the 4cyl e30s, not the M20 engined ones, and that it was normally fixed by replacing the clutch.

Now does this sound like a reasonable price? £340. Parts £140, and labour £200. He said it would be a 4 hour job at least. Just wanted to know if it's taking the piss or a decent price

I've pretty much decided doing it myself, as I have all the facilities to do it, though I think it'll take me a bit of time.

What I'm asking now is if the gearbox is out of the car, how easy would it be to get it reconditioned? Does anyone have any contacts who could do it cheap? I know I could just get another one, but it still works, but doesn't feel nice anymore. I'd like to get it back to pretty much new condition. The gearstick flops about all over and the synchro's a bit tired on 1 and 2.

Thanks in advance for the help,
Ian

[Martinaston]

How do you know it's got a tired syncro on 1+2 if your not sure the clutch is ok ?

and why would you want to put a new clutch in without confirming that thats whats at fault?

As for £340 your getting robbed, a new clutch is about £90 and can be done in about an hour with the right tools.

[Martinaston]

With the gearbox third gear will set you back about £150 on it's own so if you find someone cheap then post it on hear and i'll be round like a shot , if the stick is sloppy then you may just need new bushes for the linkage.

[Dr Firefly]

How do you know it's got a tired syncro on 1+2 if your not sure the clutch is ok ?

and why would you want to put a new clutch in without confirming that thats whats at fault?

As for £340 your getting robbed, a new clutch is about £90 and can be done in about an hour with the right tools.

Ok good point. I don't know whether there's a problem with the synchro.
But something is wrong with the clutch. I think first things first, I'll just bleed the clutch.

If something was wrong with the clutch springs wouldn't it bite lower down when lifting up the pedal and be more likely to slip? It doesn't stall instantly in 1st if I put the handbrake on and gradually lift up the clutch, but it does always by the time I get it fully up. Having said that the engine is revving really low (another issue) at about 500, so it should stall quite easily. But I never notice it slipping in every day traffic - if anything it's harder to make it disengage than to slip.

Could those be symptoms of problems with the hydraulics? Ie difficulty disengaging and a really high and fairly vicious biting point. But then I don't understand why it would be a worse problem after having driven at speed. How can I confirm that it's the clutch plate at fault then? Thought I might as well put a new clutch plate in myself, and a new pilot bearing, and hopefully sort it. But don't want to do all that if its pointless.

Sorry if I sound like an newbie at mechanics - its cause I am, and I'm just learning as I go along. Hard to diagnose from the symptoms, was just going to open her up and see what's going on inside (can you tell I'm training to be a surgeon )

PS: and in answer to your earlier post the clutch fluid level seems fine