318is m42 project update

[Ant]

Fun huh Tim

TBh dude, I'd implement the Ms in satges, get the fuelling 100%, then do the sparks then move to the IAC and sort that last, you'll have difficulty setting the idle without the fuelling Map being close anyways.....


run fuel only, get a basemap and get it so the car will idle strongly once up to temp.

Add the Spark control and get the idle as strong as poss using ignition advance, 15 degrees below your target idel rpms, and 10 degrees at the target, this will help "push" the idle back if she starts to drop off.

then its time to play with PWM idle control, a shrpt term soloution would be to add a golf idle valve to give you the extra RPm required when on Warmup fuelling.

Lots to learn, are yu using Baro correction BTW Tim ? its of limited use as its sampled upon startup only but can help with annoying glitches

send me your MSq again, not the MT config file dude, what version of the firmware are you running too ?

[tim_s]

yeah its pretty nuts ant!
the fuelling's surprisingly good fella. it drives fine, no idea what sort of AFRs are going on, but if i wasn't worreid about running rich/lean, i could drive it around all the time with the MS doing the fuel. performance is a little off, think it could possibly do with richening slightly. i'll have more of a play with it, but i don't know how much more i can do with it, it fires whether the car is warm or cold and drives fine. haven't done that much work on it really, it just works. problem is if i just change from using motronic to control the idle valve to using MS (leaving motronic doing the sparks) the idle goes to shit, so i'm pretty sure something isn't right. if i use MS to do fuel, spark and idle its equally crap. i'll try to work through the sparks better first before trying the idle because the sparks aren't good at the moment.
i'm using 024s13.
barometric correction is off for the moment. i want to go hybrid alpha-n once everything's going too, but just want to get everything going first.
lol, what the hell have i been sending you then? thought i'd sent you the msq? i'm sure it has an msq extension and contains all my configuration stuff?
damn, trying to do this with limited spare time is not good!

[Ant]

make it easy on both of us Tim, extract the .vex tables from spark/fuel and send those over, I'll import them into MT this end, I use 026u/MT631 firmware, 024s is a little back in the day now dude, may well be worth reflashing to later firmware, the code has come a long way in the last year and there were changes for PWM idle control in most later versions up to 029.

[tim_s]

ok will do. think i might hold fire for the mo though, just gone out and had a play, i reckon its only firing on cyls 1 and 4 with the MS. bastard thing. got to be, surprised that it cranks and fires on two cyls really! get the two LEDs flashing sequentially as they should be, but i guess if a VB921s blown then they'd still do so anyway. gonna buy two more VB921s. bloody thing, its a lot of hassles!
think its cos i ran it on fixed duty without dwell setup, then read that that blows them so swapped over... hmmm.

[tim_s]

and now its working on all 4 cyls again. ffs! better check all connections! worth having the new VB921s i reckon anyway

[tim_s]

all sorted now! ant, can't find 026u firmware, there's 026i and 026h3 in the alpha folder on the extra site. or theres 029 stuff on there?

[tim_s]

ant its gone wrong again. any ideas what's up? replaced the second VB921, it ran ok for a few minutes. then only fired on 2 and 3. replaced the original VB921, its still only firing on 2 and 3, and LED 17 no longer flashes when it should. the MS extra outputs are setup fine, the LED should be flashing.
i'm losing loads of confidence in whether MS is gonna do this. its been so unreliable!

[Karan]

hi tim i just saw this!!

looking amazing and much respect to u going ahead with it!!!

looking forward to seeing it soon

Karan

[Demlotcrew]

i'm losing loads of confidence in whether MS is gonna do this. its been so unreliable!

This is why im sticking with Maxx, i dont think there is anything wrong with MS its just that i know MAxx will work out of the box and will be able to do most things except Ignition and Motronic has more load sites and better responce.

Andrew

[Ant]

Tim, you running the spark output inverted ?

I normally remove the LEDS and transistor and use the output from the resitor to drive the VB921s

@ Demlot, dude, the table size is less important when you look @ the PWM resoloution, nether Maxx or Motronic have as much as MS, makes up for the lack of sites which in reality is not a limiting factor.

[tim_s]

Tim, you running the spark output inverted ?

I normally remove the LEDS and transistor and use the output from the resitor to drive the VB921s

@ Demlot, dude, the table size is less important when you look @ the PWM resoloution, nether Maxx or Motronic have as much as MS, makes up for the lack of sites which in reality is not a limiting factor.

hi ant,
yeah the spark output is inverted.
i've taken the output from R26 to drive the VB921, and i've left the LEDs in place.
here's a pic of the current state of affairs:

isn't it quite handy to have the LEDs? where do you think i should be looking to fix this prob on the board? you think its likely to be Q6? I think I might have to send the unit off to Bill S for testing and to get it properly sorted. my worry is that its ultimately not a hardware issue on the MS (i.e. its something else causing the hardware prob) and that that would be wasted money - seems strange how things keep on dying on the coil driving area. Bill reckons the VB921s should be practically indestructable once hooked up and running. But i need to fix up whatever's died, and i'm not sure what has.
do you reckon its worth having another 2 VB921s put in and running each coil individually if i send it off to bill?
If I go your way and ditch the LED, where do i hook up the VB921, right side of R24? reckon it might still work like that? might be worth trying!
Cheers for help ant!

lol andrew, was expecting a more cheeky comment after calling you a wuss for not going MS
fwiw, MS isn't supposed to be the easy option!
i went for MS as i've used piggybacks in the past and although they're pretty good, its ultimately a bodge imo - i remember one of the most annoying bits was that altering the load signal to correct the fuelling had adverse effects on the timing. have a habit of going off too. and i remember on a golf once the frigging lambda made it a real pita too. but i can see why you'd go for one, it was a close call for me too, but thought that the results would ultimately be better with MS. i must admit i know five eighths of f all about maXX too!

[tim_s]

oh and cheers karan! you doing scumball btw? been thinking about it of late, thought it would be right up your street?

[gramps99]

most of (no ALL of) this is above my head, but, tim i bow down to you, keep your chin up sure you will sort it soon.

[tim_s]

bit of bad news good news today really.
firstly, guess what i collected


pretty cool huh? I'm well chuffed, the bores look close but not too close. don't want to talk about how much i've spent on it though

megasquirt's gone from bad to worse as i've managed to screw up the pwm idle circuit too. wasn't working very well anyway, but today the board started smoking - the line between Q4 and D8 took a bit of heat but everything looks ok. think its repairable. i'm going to give the unit to Bill before i wreck anything else, will give him the idle valve and a coilpack if he'll take them, so that he can build and test the coil and pwm idle circuit.
tim

[Demlotcrew]

Block looks good mate!

Have you had a look at the M42 stock ECU im sure that uses transistors to run the coils?

Andrew

[tim_s]

thanks andrew! they appear to have done a nice job, fingers crossed all will be well once it's hooked up.

good news today though! tried the MS again and its decided to work again!
I have no idea why though! i left it idling using the MS for sparks and it was fine for a good 10-15 minutes or so which is as long as i'd like to use it for with the spark map being quite crap at the mo.
ant, any tips on how i go about sorting out the timing map a bit? have no strobe or anything, my knowledge extends as far as being able to set up a car on a dizzy pretty nicely, but thats about it! i'll send you my vex, everytime i try to import the m20 table you sent me nothing changes. any ideas on that one? different versions on MT you reckon? i'll update my MT and extra firmware - i couldn't find either version you recommended (MT or extra) and i figure it would be a good idea to use the same as you!
cheers
tim

[Ant]

OK, go backwards dude, , use MT390 with extra 021u3, I have Mt and firmware for both, they are beta test but very stable, the PWM idle is unsupported though mate.

Thats what I'm using, no issues to report in 13 months now.

I have MT630 with 026H firmware too, I'm configured to use both this end no worries mate, will actually update to this version next spare 20 minutes I get , all current features fully supported, safe and secure pre-relaese version, Ross is running this on the Racecar sport, again, reliable as night following day.

With regards to the Vb921, I'm almost finished on Graham's MS here, will test then add the VR and VB jumpers, I'll take a pic, I'd say defo ditch the transistor and LED though and run the VB from the resitor, works fine and dandy dude, duplicate the circuit for the second VB and alls well......... hopefully lol

to test your triggers you'll need a strobe with swing timing facility, basically you'll want to see TDC 0 degrees with the strobe offset to you ignition advance setting for each rpm, only way to test fella !

you running twin trigger points, wasted spark off the twinpacks yeah ?

[tim_s]

OK, go backwards dude, , use MT390 with extra 021u3, I have Mt and firmware for both, they are beta test but very stable, the PWM idle is unsupported though mate.

Thats what I'm using, no issues to report in 13 months now.

I have MT630 with 026H firmware too, I'm configured to use both this end no worries mate, will actually update to this version next spare 20 minutes I get , all current features fully supported, safe and secure pre-relaese version, Ross is running this on the Racecar sport, again, reliable as night following day.

With regards to the Vb921, I'm almost finished on Graham's MS here, will test then add the VR and VB jumpers, I'll take a pic, I'd say defo ditch the transistor and LED though and run the VB from the resitor, works fine and dandy dude, duplicate the circuit for the second VB and alls well......... hopefully lol

to test your triggers you'll need a strobe with swing timing facility, basically you'll want to see TDC 0 degrees with the strobe offset to you ignition advance setting for each rpm, only way to test fella !

you running twin trigger points, wasted spark off the twinpacks yeah ?

lol ok, MT627 and extra 026h3 or h4 are the closest i can get to your config. can't find MT390 or 021u3 either. i've only been looking on the extra site, should i be looking elsewhere? sorry dont mean to be such a tool! don't suppose you have a copy of the 026H and MT630 versions you have so i can make sure i have identical spec to you?

as for the VB921s, f knows what was going on. a pic would be gradn!
its working now though, so i'm pretty happy. they do run pretty hot though, but the dwell settings have not been set properly - just left at sensible settings (i'm not sure how to tweak - tips?) and that's supposed to account for hot running.

yup twin trigger points, copying the points from a peugeout bosch 60-2 wheel of a similar era - from what i've read all bosch 60-2 wheels around this era are supposed to be the same, god knows how true that is though. i'm guessing it can't be far wrong by how it fires and runs etc. i'll get a strobe on it when i get it on the rollers to verify that its correct.
need to get the idle circuit working first and a new ICV - think my MS experimenting has fried the ICV, its not working correctly on motronic
would be good to get the timing a bit closer too though.

[tim_s]

ant was just looking at timing lights and they don't look to be too dear. is there a cheapish one with 'advance'/shift whatever to suit my needs that you know of?
im thinking if done right i can check the motronic timing and match up to the MS, mb even check dwell.

[bennyboy]

sorry! going away from your conversation. how much power are you hoping for? what other mods does it have on it? i work with fibreglass every day and that air box looks well nice mate!

[tim_s]

cheers for the compliments!
i used a cardboard braced internal mould. not a very good idea as im sure you'd tell me, but i was new to fibreglassing and didn't know any better, and wanted to get stuck in as i knew it was the only way i'd learn! its pretty thick as i don't want too much resonance or any risk of internal cllapse, but i used poly resin rather than epoxy which again i'd do differently in hindsight. at the time i thought this box would be a prototype and i'd build a better one, but its turned out to be the final one as its a good fit and looks good. its plenty strong enough too.

as for power output, i'm just going to wait and see. other people with converted m42s claim big power, but i'm not so confident quite yet. i want to up the CR a bit more from where it is to help things along too.

[tim_s]

just thought i'd give a quick update.
been on shepsevo3's rollers today with the standardish 1.8 engine and MS
here's some pics:







the figures were 107atw in 4th on standard fuelling, 112 atw in 3rd standard fuelling.
bit disappointing, was hoping for a bit more, but its not too bad. hasn't any major mods so its ok.
changing fuelling to MS got about 4/5rwhp.

unfortunately using MS to do sparks is not working at all. seems ok on a timing light, but is running like shit and dropping away, backfiring etc. all 4 are firing though. very odd. time for an MS expert to look at it! am sad that i'm still having trouble with the sparks, its been nothing but trouble

[Gunni]

does it idle at all??
or well for that matter?

Are you sure your don´t have any kinks in the software adjusting ignition,
maybe water temp or air intake temp,

what values are you putting in there??

[tim_s]

i'm really at a loss as to what's going on. it seems to be firing at the correct advance etc on a timing light until it drops off and then fires all over the place. i think its more likely a hardware problem. i've tried using a separate idle timing map for when the TPS is at idle and the rpm below 1000rpm set at 10 degrees, but that's not working well either. mb i have a weak spark or some noise in the VR pickup or something.

it doesn't really idle, sometimes if you hold the throttle in a bit it will sit confortably for a while, if you ease of the throttle ever so slightly it will fire all over the place it seems and then cut out.

i wish i could be more specific, but it seems to be at the correct advance when idling! its bizzarre!

[jaistanley]

Have you considered fitting a Ford crank position wheel and sensor and using megasquirtnedis? I know there's a perfectly good BMW one already on the engine, but the edis system is widely used and well documented. Ford parts on your bimmer though...

You realise if I hadn't gone all stupid (in every sense of the bloody word) and bought this 3.2 I'd have been all over you like a rash big boy? LOVING the efforts with the M42 engine..

Jai

[tim_s]

haha! thanks, think the 3.2 might have been the right choice though! will be a lot faster.
mine's getting on my tits at the moment, today was another £150 and not great results because of all the probs with timing.
i might have to go edis the rate this is going, would be a pita after all the effort that's been put in though. this method really should work, i think if i could get someone who knows what they're doing with this to help me i'm sure it could be sorted. I'm going to have a serious browse on the megasquirt forums tonight and mb throw some emails/msgs around.

btw has anyone else had their is on the rollers? if so, what AFRs was it running on WOT? what power atw?

[ShepsEvo3]

Tim, nice to meet you today.

Your car is well sweet, and being honest I didn't like the megasquirt system...but thats me. I would have liked to have spent much more time on it and called a few people about it, but you have to draw a line somewhere. I nearly fitted a Unichip while you were round the circuit! But I know you want to carry on with the megasquirt route. I am sure it can be sorted. As I said to you earlier, it was the 1st time I have ever seen that system. Like you said it is very similar to the Emerald set up which I actually like. I allowed you to carry out the adjustments and play with the Megasquirt as you know the system MUCH better than I do. I would love to spend more time with it and a manual?? if there is one, to learn alot more about it.

After the re-map of the fueling and with the AFM disconnected it did actually make 113 BHP at the wheels IN FOURTH! 20% loss and thats 141 BHP. This was up from 106BHP at the wheels when you 1st drove in. (133 FWP) Not bad increase for just playing with the fuel maps. The AFR's were approx 13.1:1 with this arrangement. When we re-connected the AFM it ran 12.8:1 or very slightly richer at the top end, which made it loose a little power.

jaistanley may have a point with the different crank sensor, also adjusting the sensitivity may also make a difference. Or the dwell too? There are certainly alot of adjustments to be made just to get the car running. It was very strange that we managed to get the ignition timing exactly the same as the Motronic, but yet it didn't like it atall. Also the megasquirt didn't seem to like the IACV either.

Sorry for the cost today, I was unable to do it any cheaper than that, and I didn't charge for the whole time we spent on your car. Unfortunately, things like this does take time to set up properly. Also most places charge upwards of £70+ an hour for dyno time! Granted on a better dyno.....maybe.

I hope you manage to speak to Ant who you say is "Mr Megasquirt" soon and sort the timing issue out. When it is sorted, you are welcome to come back for another mapping session. This time it won't take as long, as thats all it'll be - mapping.

Anyway, Great to meet you, your a top lad!

[tim_s]

haha ignore me paul, I'm just being a miserable git cos my megasquirt wouldn't play! Despite the timing, I had a good time today, thanks again for that, was good to meet you and see your car - and the cost is not you're fault! we spent a fair old while on it, i'm just sad the bloody timing wouldn't work and will have more bills on it!
i think that timing prob is going to take a bit of work, it was probably for the best we left it you know!
i'm sure it'll get there, i've chatted to another MS guru and I'm going to send him the MS box and get it tested, then we're going to move on to the rest of the setup (i.e. the car!).

As far as a manual etc for megasquirt is concerned, there's loads of info for it, but no definitive start-to-finish manual for this particular setup really. not helped cos i'm using extra code to run the sparks/coilpack and decode the crank wheel etc. i can send you some links etc if you like.

As for unichip, I'm too commited now, and I want a system I can tweak! the perfect power SMT unit might have been just the ticket in hindsight though, but i think the megasquirt will cope better down the line when the car is so thoroughly changed - bigger injectors, higher CR, bigger capacity, no AFM etc.

We seem to have made some good progress on the fuelling though. The drive back wasn't too bad, there's some stutters and its a bit lean on part-load occasionally, but i'm confident its on the right lines now.

qs for MS guys:
I've realised I have the TSEL set to VROUTINV, would this impact my timing?
Also where have people left the VR pots for our BMW sensor with best results?
I'm not sure these have anything to do with my problem, but i'm guessing that megatune could still read 10 degrees advance yet due to a misread of the VR sensor it could misfire? is there any way i can check this? the tach signal seems pretty rock solid.
I'm thinking this is a potential candidate but it will be difficult to adjust the pots when the tach signal seems sweet at the moment.

[ShepsEvo3]

Thats cool Tim, I was a little disappointed myself really, but was impressed the gains got from just the fueling alone. I understand that it will still need some tweaking here and there especially on the light load sites.

I would say it would be alot easier to map it against a throttle potentiometer (TPS) as apposed to a MAP sensor. This will give much better throttle response too, and make the throttle feel more alive than like everything happening on the 1st quater or less throttle, then feeling dead untill full throttle.

I know you are too committed now, and if you can get it to work, you would have really achieved something! I was joking about the Unichip Although people should know that the Unichip is alot more flexible than people think........Suzuki Swift GTI 1300 with 10.5:1 C:R standard internals, standard ECU and bigger injectors and cosworth FPR increasing with boost, supercharged with large intercooler running 12-13psi boost, mapped using the Unichip and power came up from the standard 100bhp at 6250 rpm to 230bhp at 7700 rpm. Mapping that was very easy, it idles and drives just like a high powered normally asperated car. The new Uni-Q can just about run as a stand alone too

I cannot praise this enough....SORRY!

Anyway, enough of the advert!

Tim, if you need anymore help, you know where I am.

[Ant]

Tim, send me a datalog of the car running under full MSnS and I'll have a gander for you fella, if the timing is spot on to motronic agreed it should be sweet on MS, same info = same result, or not

I still dont like how you have the VB921 wired in though dude, I have another on the build @ the mo so I'll shoot a pic up so you may compare, just duplicate it from another driver of choice and add the VB on the case as before

The PWM idle control is very much experimental code, and as such could proove very difficult to employ @ this stage, hence my original advice to leave the Tip put and get everything else right 1st, less to implement in one go

do you have the Stim unit Tim ? and which extra firmware are you using dude, there are some known issues with the wheel decoder dropping out on a few versions, especially 029s

I think we should all agree on a firmware version and stick to it, much easier to compare files/logs and generally better for the community as a whole. thoughts ??

OH, Bill Shurv is THE man for hardware issues, Phil is also the don ( daxtejero on MSEFI) I've used bith in the past with excellent results from both parties, recommended

[Ant]

Select the tach input circuit with jumpers:

For the VR sensor:
Jumper VRIN to TACHSELECT on the bottom side of the PCB (near the DB37, opposite the heat sink.)
Jumper TSEL to VROUT (Or VROUTINV if you want the VR input to be inverted) on the bottom side of the PCB, near the center.
OR (Do NOT install both sets of jumpers, chose one set or the other!)

now Tim, if you jumper to VROUTINV and then select the output inverted in megatune I dont know if the output is the the inverse of the inverted or what. I'd suggest removing that jumper and using theMT dongle to set as inverted and then have another go

double negative=positive if you get what I'm saying ( badly)

worth a snip anyways fella !

as for the pots...... cant remember, but Bill S will know for sure !

[tim_s]

Cheers fella! I've been out having a play tonight and not really got anywhere. I'll swap from VROUTINV to VROUT tomorrow. Can you read the trigger and tooth log files ant, i couldn't make any sense of them, though there didn't seem to be enough pattern to the hex to me. Even though I've got a stable tach, I reckon there's a fair chance there's something up with the VR signal.

I'm on 029q now ant, had some trouble with 024, was outputting a load of "&"s on hyperterminal on exit and the MS was halting every time the ignition was switched off, so I went up to 029q.
I'm just about to send you a pretty short data log (save you some time!), the trigger/tooth logs and my msq.
I'm happy to run with whatever v of MS/extra you recommend fella! I think running the same v would be a good idea. 029q has been better for me than 024 though. once this timing thing's sorted I'll have to book some time with you to tune it all up nicely - once the 2.1s in I think now though mb?
Also one thing Paul was saying on the rollers was that the MAP (which is on a scale from 40-100KPa) didn't relate to throttle position very well, is this usual?
Is there any mileage in using the cam sensor as well for timing - can I do this and might it help?
I've just sent another mail to Bill - he wanted me to send the unit in, but i erckon i ought to have a look at the VR signal etc properly first before going down that road.
Cheers for your help ant, sorry to be such a pita all the time. will be grand once its done though. i'm considering buying a WBO2 you know, try to save on the dyno costs.
tim

[tim_s]

It works, it works! there were a few things that i have modified to beef up the sparks circuit, now it appears to run fine. the problem before was simply weak sparks as far as i can tell. the VB921s still get quite hot, will tweak dwell settings and i need to get the trigger advance addition number thingy spot on - my timing light isn't mega accurate, but otherwise I've been for a drive and everything is all good. I'm going to have a go at removing the AFM later.

[tim_s]

some pics:






the inlet pipe is just a temporary bodge, the AFM and motronic are going back on later - the car needs to be mapped better to be daily driveable. the induction noise is fantastic now though, went for a bit of a drive and it feels great. can't wait to have it mapped properly...
only slight concern is the coil drivers are still getting well hot, i need to adjust the dwell settings i think.

[TommyC]

Hey tim, hows tricks?? Sorry for not sending the promised micromesh, been so bloody busy since getting back that this is the first time i've had a chance to log on!! (and get your address from the PM you sent). I've now got hold of 1800, 2400, 6000 and 12000 grit stuff so i'll have some in the post to you very soon!!

I've recently finished making a leaving present for someone from work out of a U/S engine compressor blade (cut a silhouette of the aircraft into it and polished it up) only took 3 hours to polish to a mirror like shine from bare metal!!!

I see you're having problems with the Megasquirt and i'm now kinda glad i never took on my planned project!! I've tried to understand some of the above posts but it all seems a bit beyond me.......

Anyway, i hope things go well when you try to bring it all together and i'd love to see the finished article!!