Following on from the injector problem, boost solenoids

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Turbo-Brown
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Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:28 pm

Well, after spotting that I was making about 1bar since I re-jiggered the vacuum signals to the boost gauge, I decided to see if I could find out if there was some other reason for the sudden leap in pressures.

Turns out that the wastegate signal line had fallen onto an exhaust manifold and so inevitably had a hole in it!

Anyway, repaired this and been out for a spin and am now back to about 0.5bar of boost.

Problem is, the car feels so much slower now and I want all that boost back!

Not sure if it would be all that wise up at the top end of the rev range though so I wanna combine the best of both worlds by finding a boost control solenoid.

The ECU's got a boost mapping funcion so I could conceivably run 1bar of boost lower down with it tailing off to 0.5bar as the red line approaches.

Anyone know of suitable valves and where I can get hold of one?

Looks like Audi solenoids should do the trick but I can't seem to find anywhere other than the dealers that sell them! :(

Cheers!

Alex
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e30_Turbo
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Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:46 pm

Ask Lennie, he showed Ant and I some rather handy looking bits of kit in his garage. We have this feature on MS too, so I'm eager to see how this one works out for you Alex.

Turbo-Brown wrote:Problem is, the car feels so much slower now and I want all that boost back!
And you wondered why I kept turning mine up! :thumb: :tongue:

EDIT

what about these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-soleno ... enameZWD2V
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:56 pm

Think the boost switch things are just to stop creep and aid spool up, although could probably use the solenoid connected to the ECU.

I desperately want my 1bar back!

I now know exactly why you kept turning the wick up! The engine didn't seem to mind either, couldn't believe how fast it was with 4 people in the car too!

Seems that there's no problem running a bar up to at lease 4500rpm, although would like to see the EGTs there and it really was demon fast :twisted:

Just wonder if any old 12v pneumatic solenoid would do beause they're cheap and plentiful in RS!

Gotta be the way forward I reckon!
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:29 pm

Incidentally, does anyone happen to know whether the valve on normal boost control solenoids is closed or open with the power disconnected?

Cheers! :)
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lentec
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Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:13 pm

Alex like mark said ive got just the job!

Will get you some pics tomoro! i have a few all on a nice blue anodised billet manifold.
3 normaly open 3 or 4 normaly closed all 12v
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Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:19 pm

Saab 900 turbos have them mate, sadliy I sold the one off the scrapper saab. Goes in the vaccuum line to the wastegate and controls it that way right? Shouldn't be too difficult to find.
Turbo-Brown
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Post Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:41 am

lentec wrote:Alex like mark said ive got just the job!

Will get you some pics tomoro! i have a few all on a nice blue anodised billet manifold.
3 normaly open 3 or 4 normaly closed all 12v
Sweet, would be cool if you can pop piccies up :D

I've got a normally closed solenoid valve from the central locking system on some merc or other here. Now I reckon that if I combine it in parallel with a little one way valve (of the type found in the windscreen washer system) it should work pretty well.

Trouble is I have no idea if the ECU expects the solenoid valve to be closed or open without voltage :(
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Post Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:41 pm

I'd expect that normally open is the safest way to implement this Alex...

with no power the wastegate will be controlled normally by the spring/dia combo, add the control valve +12V and the wastegate will no longer "see" the boost and remain closed for longer, no creep , more boost etc etc

Then the ECU can cycle the valve to give more boost only, not less than the wastgates, the boost control will revert to stock @ 0V.

thoughts ?
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:50 pm

Yeah that seemed to be the logical way to me too, that way it'd fail to safety if the solenoid died.

Not sure what the ECU is expecting though, whether it be open or closed without voltage.

Hope it is normally closed in some ways as I've for an N/C solenoid.
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lentec
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Post Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:03 pm

You could use a N/C if it was used as a bleed off type like a 3 port boost adjuster.
Turbo-Brown
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Post Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:33 am

Many thanks for the links in the PM Len, looks like it needs to be N/O so that it fails to safety :D
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lentec
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Post Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:04 am

No problem :cool:
Will pickup them solonoids to get em weighed today.

Let you know
Turbo-Brown
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Post Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:34 pm

Sweet, cheers dude! :cool:
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Post Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:35 pm

PM sent :D
e30_Turbo
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Post Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:49 pm

Lennie I hope you saved one for me :D
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Post Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:08 pm

Dont worry mark still got two/three left :cool:
Turbo-Brown
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Post Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:22 am

Reckon ya need a N/O and a N/C to act as a pressure release from the WG :)

Even wrote myself a little boost map last night, although I need to fix my many oil leaks before doing anything else!
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Post Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:58 pm

Hi this is a cut & past summary from a guide to building an independent boost controller but I hope it helps, it was based around an Audi boost control solenoid
Jason
So how does it work? The IEBC measures engine load by monitoring injector duty cycle (ie how long the injectors are open for) 200 times a second. By using injector duty cycle as the input, it always knows exactly how much load the engine is under —a and it provides the boost that you've chosen to match that load. The control of boost is achieved by varying the wastegate solenoid duty cycle.
So in summary, all that's done is to set what wastegate duty cycle applies at each injector duty cycle.
Sound a strange way of doing things? Nope. It has huge advantages over a control system that measures boost pressure and then always tries to make it as close to maximum as possible. In fact, if you've driven a big turbo car with a traditional "keep the wastegate shut until 20 psi is reached" you'll know that such a system has terrible throttle control. At high revs you might get 20 psi boost at half throttle, three-quarters throttle and full throttle —a which makes much of the accelerator's range useless for finely controlling power! Cornering a car like this on the throttle needs huge skills, as waves of boost keep coming and going with slight ankle twitches.
But with the IEBC you always get boost that's proportional to throttle position (cos throttle position is proportional to load). So at 4000 rpm, half throttle, you get less boost than at 4000 rpm, full throttle. If you put your foot down, you still get max boost so there's absolutely no drop-off in available power, but at the same time you get far better throttle control. And making boost proportional to load also decreases the average temp of the air the intercooler sees.
But even if you're only interested in full-throttle performance, the IEBC has huge advantages over its nearest cost competitor, a pneumatic bleed. For starters, you can keep the wastegate shut as engine load increases, completely dialling-out wastegate creep. Then you get easily get rid of the drooping top-end boost curve that often occurs with bleed systems. And finally, there's in the in-cabin switch that lets you select two completely different boost curves —a nope, not just peak boost levels, but the shape of the entire boost curve. That means you can have a wet weather map that brings on boost more gently and peaks at a lower level, for example. The dry road map? Well, that can have a heap of wastegate anti-creep built in and hold boost at a higher level.
How the Solenoid is Pulsed
Unless it's set so that it's ether fully open or fully shut, the boost control solenoid is pulsed 10 times per second. When only a small amount of air is required to pass through it, the time that the solenoid is open for is very short. When lots of air needs to pass through it, the solenoid is open for much longer. This opening time is called â€Ëaduty cycle' —a the expression has the same application as with injectors.
As can be seen in this scope view of a working IEBC, at 5 per cent duty cycle the solenoid isn't open much at all. (Look how narrow the peaks are.)
However, at 70 per cent duty cycle, the solenoid is open for over two-thirds of the time.
Most boost control solenoids will work over the range of 5-80 per cent, giving 75 different levels of airflow through the valve. Since you can set the solenoid airflow at 1.5 per cent injector duty cycle intervals, there are thousands of different values that are available to control boost! But don't panic: if you want a smooth boost curve, road tuning soon shows the values to use - once the map has been started, the rest of the figures are easy to select. We'll cover more on boost tuning next week.
Testing the Solenoid
Now that the controller is working, you can connect the boost control solenoid. At this stage it doesn't need to be plumbed to the turbo. With the solenoid wired between 12V and the controller's output, try changing the output signal going to it by adjusting the hand controller's up/down buttons at that input load site. (You can easily do this test with the car just idling.)
In addition to the â€Ëaoutput' LED changing in brightness, you should be able to feel and hear the solenoid clicking. Change the output number across a wide range and check the duty cycle at which the solenoid stays fully open and then fully shut. (Solenoids won't work over the full 1-100 per cent range; typically they'll work only over say 5-80 percent.)
Blow through the solenoid and check that at zero output, the solenoid is shut and that at 100 per cent output, the solenoid is open. Then try some in-between duty cycles and check that the flow varies as it should.
Boost Control Solenoid
It's important to note the boost control solenoid is NOT installed as with a conventional system. Instead of the boost control solenoid being used to bleed off air that's going to the wastegate actuator (so reducing the pressure the wastegate actuator sees), the IEBC's solenoid is actually placed in-line between the boost pressure source and the wastegate.
IOTW, when the solenoid is shut, no boost pressure at all can get to the actuator.
The above diagram shows how the solenoid is plumbed-in. As can be seen, a small vent is also placed between the solenoid and the wastegate. This prevents pressure being trapped between the closed solenoid and the wastegate actuator when the solenoid is shut. The small vent is most easily made by soldering up one arm of a brass T-piece and then drilling a small hole (eg 1mm) through the solder plug. Alternatively, a quarter-inch needle valve can be used to give an easily adjustable opening. The T-piece is available at any auto parts store while the needle valve can be bought at hydraulics and pneumatics suppliers.
Boost control solenoids are usually directional. When installing the valve under the bonnet, be careful not to plumb the valve in wrongly or it may leak, making boost control impossible.
Tuning
To tune the boost curve, you'll need an assistant and a boost gauge. To start the on-road tuning process, put your foot down at low revs in a higher gear (like third) and watch the boost gauge like a hawk. Boost will shoot up rapidly and when it's just below the peak level you want, yell out â€ËaNOW!' and immediately back off the throttle. The assistant should watch the Hand Controller (set to RUN mode) and note the load site number that occurred when you yelled.
If for example, it was at Load Site 34 that you yelled, increase the output number at the ten sites in front of (and including) Load Site 34. This is easily done by going into VIEW mode and then scrolling across until you reach these load sites.
Drive the car at full throttle again and the boost level shouldn't reach your max until higher loads. Continue adjusting the outputs at the new load sites until you have the maximum boost set correctly. If you find that the boost level surges, it's probably because you have the duty cycle of the solenoid ramping up too quickly —a start bringing on its action at an earlier load site. In other words, never have too big a huge jump in output between adjoining load sites or the boost control may become erratic as the controller switches back and forth between these sites.
You can then concentrate on the rest of the boost curve, fine-tuning the way the turbo comes on boost and making sure that it remains constant throughout the rev range (or has the boost curve shape you want).
Once you realise you can increase or decrease boost anywhere you want through the load range, the power of the controller becomes obvious.
Turbo-Brown
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Post Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:41 pm

Crumbs, all a bit technical! :D

Luckily for me though, the ECU has a boost mapping function which lets you specify boost levels for any given combination of throttle position / revs.

Really looking forward to having my 1bar of boost back! :twisted:
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Post Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:39 pm

Hi

In summary get an audi or saab boost valve plumb it into the wastegate and hook it up to the emreald. The ecu then alters signal to the boost valve which inturn controls the pressure the wastegate see's, you map this using a boost guage to give you an nice big wide dollop of torque across the revs.

Then get dave to map it and ask him for the pin outs for graham buars old ecu which he has promissed me for over a year when you see him.

Jason
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Post Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:20 am

Awesome!

Solenoids arrived on Saturday! Massive thanks to Len! :cool:

Got a system rigged up after spending all afternoon working out how to use two of them, and then reasising that I only needed one.

However, wired and plumbed it in, went out for a drive and the Emerald doesn't seem to do anything with it :(

Any ideas peeps? :lol:

Cheers!

Alex
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e30_Turbo
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Post Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:25 am

Buy MS :wink:
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:58 pm

Arf arf, I hate computers! (although it's obviously something I'm doing wrong with a setting of some sort)

Anyone know what the "rate" option in the Boost Control screen is? It's only available under Closed Loop Target Boost.
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Post Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:29 pm

Recived the cheque cheers alex :D

Is it the update rate perhaps?
Turbo-Brown
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Post Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:56 pm

Yeah thought that, but there's also a frequency setting which seems to relate to the update rate too.

Will try the 'Rate' thing in the week, I want my bar back!

Also gonna have to find out where all the oil's coming from! :(
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:36 pm

Ah haa!

Sent Emerald an e-mail about the solenoid control this morning and have just had a reply :D

Apparently I need to use the open loop signal PWM% and set the frequency to about 15Hz.

It's a bit more obvious now I'm looking at it, but we tried setting the PWM as we were driving along on saturday and being a bit cautious, I said to my mate "put the number 1 in all the boxes up to 6000rpm" which would have equated to 1% which is only 1% more than 0% which is in turn telling the ECU to leave the solenoid open :oops:

Anyway, I need to make up a bit of a map and then datalog a couple of runs to see what happens :)

Easy when you know how, just a shame I generally don't! :lol:
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:59 pm

Turds, still doesn't work :(

Even tried logging the boost PWM output and it's not doing anything :(

Oh well, going off to Emerald in just over a week so I'll get them to sort it out :D
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lentec
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Post Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:22 pm

Just found somthing you might find interesting
look at the section "Boost Control - Laddtrycksstyrning"
http://www.tsmotor.com/dot5/index.php?f ... =ts.manual
Dont know if that might help?

Looks like the swedish version of the m3dk manual has more info on aditional features :?
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Mon May 01, 2006 8:44 pm

Looks like it says enter numbers into the tabel, sit back and feel the gee's.

Tried it again yesterday and the problem seems to be that the ECU just isn't interested in the boost map.

If I program a load of numbers into the map and load it into the ECU, the numbers stay there. If I then read from the ECU the numbers are still there. But if I close the Emerald software, open it again and then read the ECU, the numbers are all gone!

Still, only 8 days till we go to see Emerald so they can sort the bloomin' thing out!

On another note, had an unbelievably sucessful day by the looks of it!

Took off the front turbo which is no mean feat, removed the oil cooler and associated piping, connected the return from the oil filter housing straight back to the block, machined myself an M14x1.5 banjo bolt so that I could use the original water connector for the front turbo (it's supply line used to have a 90degree kink in it!) and managed to refit the whole lot with a minimum of cursing!

Just gotta whip the plugs out next weekend and crank it over to build up the oil pressure, then cross everything and hope it doesn't still piss oil out everywhere!
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lentec
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Post Mon May 01, 2006 9:45 pm

Turbo-Brown wrote:If I program a load of numbers into the map and load it into the ECU, the numbers stay there. If I then read from the ECU the numbers are still there. But if I close the Emerald software, open it again and then read the ECU, the numbers are all gone!
Are you turning off the ignition befor trying to read it again?
Have had a simlar problem with other settings not taking effect untill a full restart.
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Post Mon May 01, 2006 10:04 pm

Aaaah, that's probably it then!

Was just restarting the software on the laptop!

Cheers Len! :cool:

Boo, not gonna get a chance to try it until next weekend now as I've got two jobs to do at work this week, one during office hours and t'other in my own time :(
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Turbo-Brown
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Post Sat May 06, 2006 7:48 pm

Arse.

Tried uploading the new settings and restarting the ECU but they still go missing.

Grrrrrr, frustration!

Still, only 3 days to go! :D
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