1st N/A MegasquirtnSpark install, completed

[Turbo-Brown]

Presumibly that supplies a little bit of air frm infront of the throttles to each individual throttle body? Lot's more bloody hoses to look after!
So if I eventually go ITB's I'll go MS too.

It's a pretty well thought out setup really, there's a big rail that links all of the low sides of the TBs together beside the fuel rail.

The servo's vacuum is taken from this rail, and the IACV is connected to it too.

Really need to make up a similar balance chamber for mine to give a proper and steady signal to the MAP sensor and boost gauge which dances about at the moment

[racecar]

me and my mate david finally got round to working on the car and installing a map prepared by ant with fuel cut out - has sorted a misfire and car really runs well now. i have even put adapted the old airbox with k&N panel filter to prevent rocks flying in

was great fun hooning around walton with the laptop connected and trying different maps - felt very F1 even if half the info generated is above my current level of understanding!

response is much sharper than with afm - and after messing around with cam timing and adjusting tappets for the first time since engine build - engine is much quieter - bar injector ticking - do they all do this?

think i am gonna have to finally get round to fitting that m90 now

anyone else on here with megasquirt installed on a n/a car?

[Ant]

Well done Ross and David !

as far as I know you are still the one and only N/A squirter on the forum, more will follow once they realise what they're missing out on

Standalones aren't just for turbocars peeps

which map felt best to you both Ross ? 1,2,3 or 4 with fuel cut enabled ?

Edit: to answer chips posting.... Det cans are not required on the M20, if she pinks you'll hear it from miles away fella ! , but you can bolt the tube to the spare tapped holes on the drivers side of the block where the AC comp bracket attatches

[racecar]

hi ant

fuel cut enabled has transformed car - i assume the other maps are do not have this?
only used the fc enabled and and the existing map - time was short and had to use david's laptop as mine only has USB connection - gonna whizz down to PC world later today and get a USB to 232 serial port
connector so i can hook it up tomorrow and try them all out on a trip i have to maldon tomorrow

on the way back going to tim brise's in dartford - guy is looking for more workshop space - near to you - might be of interest for you? - i''ll give you a call

also guy working on david's Formula Vee has a rolling road in his workshop just south of leicester - and seems like a cheap deal for the rolling road for a day in the week could be arranged - might be of interest to a few others who wanna play with maps/cam timing/etc and see quantifiable results - at a sensible price?

[RowdyBurns]

Ant,
When you pop up for the rolling road day i will bolt a set of det cans to yours or Marks M20. You will probbaly be suprised at the amount of detonation you will hear!

Detonation (accept under extreme circumstances) will probably be in audible to the ear. Don't forget detonation and pre-ignition are two seperate things and i probably think it is pre-ignition that you are hearing.

[Widge]

Is a det can the same as a knock sensor? And can they be integrated in to the MS setup?

[RowdyBurns]

Think of det cans as like a stethiscope for your engine. They are used to detect the ringing of the block caused by detonation in the cylinders.

You can have electronic versions that are based around a sensitive micraphone type device that can then have other frequencies dialled out to just the the det frequency. This is how the knock detectors work. Showing the amount of det frequncy noise in say an LED display.

You can also use acoustic det cans that very much like a doctors stethiscope. They work very well and can be fabricated easily by a competant home tuner.

Below is a picture of an acoustic set of det cans that i have used.





and me using them

[Widge]

That's an interesting idea. what exactly do you connect them too?



I know about knock sensors from working on saab 900 turbos (hateful cars) which are equipped with a knock sensor to turn the boost down when running on low quality petrol etc that a saab may have encountered in some parts of europe in the 80's, not to mention the USA.
Surely, a knock sensor could easily be incorporated in to the MS setup. Everything else once you have MS on the engine is computer controlled so it seems a bit silly not to try and digitise the knock caused by detonantion and feed that back in to the MS ecu. Then action could be taken when the knock becomes unacceptable.

What exactly do you do when you hear excessive knock with the det cans to remove it?

[e21Jason]

Hi Widge

The upgrade to MS is VEMS which i am planing on using, comes with Knock & Wideband builtin so you optimse the advance on that basis.


Do a google for VEMS

Jason

[Widge]

Cool Jason cheers will do. You going to be running the 3 ltr on MS then? Dumping the thirsty carbs?
I must say having seen what is avalible as far as MS goes, I don't see why I would ever consider setting up an engine on carbs again. Knock sensor makes a lot of sence if your going FI I think, even if it doesn't feature in the map much, just seems like a sensible failsafe.

[Turbo-Brown]

Think the programming behind knock sensors is quite complex in that they're listening for something in amongst lots of background noise. Then there's what happens when knock is detected i.e. retarding ignition a bit and giving an extra squirt of fuel to cool things down a bit.

Also, knock sensors don't work at elevated engine speeds as the background noise gets to be too much for meaningful data to be extracted from the sensors.

[Boots_Walker]

digging up a slightly old thread here, i've been naughty and havent visited the Zone in a while

I've been running MS on my (ex)L-Jet 323i for over a year now, going to be dropping a 2.8/2.9 stroker in soonish that i want to run on EDIS with coil packs - creating an ignition map from scratch is one of the task i've been dreading... Ant, any chance i could get a copy of your motronic basemap?

[Demlotcrew]

Think the programming behind knock sensors is quite complex in that they're listening for something in amongst lots of background noise. Then there's what happens when knock is detected i.e. retarding ignition a bit and giving an extra squirt of fuel to cool things down a bit.

Also, knock sensors don't work at elevated engine speeds as the background noise gets to be too much for meaningful data to be extracted from the sensors.

The new M5 uses some trick knock sensors that can detect knock before it happens and from this BMW can release 40bhp alone!

Im not sure what the actual technology is tho

Andrew

[Ant]

Boots drop me an email on ant@e30zone.co.uk and I'll forward you the M20 sparkmap, you may have to tweak a few sites to suit but it sure beats adding 144 values manually

Andrew.... Ms will give you more than Maxx, youo still want to follow the crowd ?

[Turbo-Brown]

Think the programming behind knock sensors is quite complex in that they're listening for something in amongst lots of background noise. Then there's what happens when knock is detected i.e. retarding ignition a bit and giving an extra squirt of fuel to cool things down a bit.

Also, knock sensors don't work at elevated engine speeds as the background noise gets to be too much for meaningful data to be extracted from the sensors.

The new M5 uses some trick knock sensors that can detect knock before it happens and from this BMW can release 40bhp alone!

Im not sure what the actual technology is tho

Andrew

Aah, that wouldn't be this "ionic current" knock detection thing I keep hearing about would it?

God know how that works!

[Demlotcrew]

Boots drop me an email on ant@e30zone.co.uk and I'll forward you the M20 sparkmap, you may have to tweak a few sites to suit but it sure beats adding 144 values manually

Andrew.... Ms will give you more than Maxx, youo still want to follow the crowd ?

Yes mate deffo sticking with Maxx!

Andrew

[tim_s]

Boots drop me an email on ant@e30zone.co.uk and I'll forward you the M20 sparkmap, you may have to tweak a few sites to suit but it sure beats adding 144 values manually

Andrew.... Ms will give you more than Maxx, youo still want to follow the crowd ?

Yes mate deffo sticking with Maxx!

Andrew

wuss!

[Widge]

How much does an M/S install cost roughly
a) if I did it my self?
b) if I got Ant to install it all for me?
Cheers

[racecar]

How much does an M/S install cost roughly
a) if I did it my self?
b) if I got Ant to install it all for me?
Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well it was a while ago but MS 2(think was latest version) complete with everything (i think) was £300 + another £500 for fitting. - Ant feel free to butt in if this is incorrect - cannot clearly remember now

I would recommend Ant - he had the car for 4 days - did a fair few maps and i was v.happy with results. Since then i have called him a number of times on a saturday morning with idiot questions and he has been v.helpful and sent some new maps based on feedback i gave whilst i learn the ropes

had some fun trying different maps on a deserted bit of the old A3 at the weekend - it was very scientfic - not. started at 2k in 2nd at a lampost and caned it untill we passed a bush about x hundred yards further on and datalogged what revs were reached.

all good fun and proved alone that without the AFM set up the car is alot more fun to drive. anyway only bothered with MS cos an M90 is sitting on the work bench at a mates - but for the driveability gains and fun factor of learning how to map car etc - worth it alone. i have not even scraped the surface with what MS can do - only using it for fuel at moment and spark is off old motronic - but that will change in next month/6 weeks

[Widge]

Cheers mate, thats cool. I looked at an AFM the other day and was thinking how restrictive it must be.

[Ant]

Hello fellas !

The Racecar media install was a complete MS V3.0PCB, PWM idle mod, mapped fuel and ignition fully standalone with VR pickup, 60/2 trigger wheel and M30 injectors @ 3bar, running MsnS-E code in blended Alpha N, Map cnfiguration

Supply and fit/map of the MS including all looming, sensors etc came to £687.90 all in, I had to swop out the fuel rail, fit the M30 squirters, repair some damaged wiring and add the VR sensor and make a connector for this as Ross's car has the twin pulse gen setup. the extra items were not included in the original quote, I think all in it just broke the £800 barrier

As Ross has stated, the mods are worthwhile for anyone planning some major revisions to the Powerplant, not just for us boosted heros read PPC this month, a guy Ms'd his MG and got an extra 40 lbs/ft torque, work out the £Â£ per gain vs other methods and I think MS justifies itself admirably

MS gives you the abilty to bin the flap type AFM, add a MAF, use the internal Map or go TPS-load/rpm only, the latter being the easiest to map from a DIY perspective, Ross and David were keen to get involved in the DIY mapping aspect so as part of the handover we had a run through of the software and hardware options, I hope some made sense, it was a lot to take in for sure, but these guys have taken the baton and run with it, fair play guys !

MS has had some major revisons since last year and doubled in capabilty, with yet more to come very soon, a few more zoners are into the fray too, Tim S,Fozzymonster, G corky have all taken the plunge, its all good guys.

Tempted anyone yet

[Widge]

Hmmm might think about this over the summer. I'd want to do it all my self though, and bin haveing an AFM and a MAF just go pressure load etc...
But it would probably be a lot of help to get a starter Map off you ANT, obviously for a donation to the cause, charity begins at home and all that

[Ant]

Widge, if I can assist in any way fella just ask OK.

I dont have all the answers(yet ) but I can certainly shed some light where required,

Missed a couple of 'squirters off too, Martin/Doug, and Toby Unna of course !

tylerma is almost ready to join the fray too

@ Ross. you decided on what to do with the fuel pump relay yet dude ? the sparks are mapped and wired, only the ground to the coil needs swopping after the pump is sorted.

[Widge]

So he's got everything ready to rock and roll? Excapt keeping the fuel pumping once he's ripped out the Moronic unit? Can't it just be wired through a relay to the switched power to the fusebox?

[e30_Turbo]

Ms rocks

Exampe:

Me @ MOT station with tester....

Me: " if the hydro carbons are way out gis a call and I'll pop down and adjust it all, it's running 13.5 afr at the mo"

tester: " eh?? what you gonna do remap it?"

Me: " yes mate, I'll bring me laptop and adjust it there and then!"

tester: " eh, how the fuck do you do that then?"

me: " take a look at this"

tester: " WOW, that's very good, where can I buy one??"



Ow the joy of standalone and don't be scared of these things, they really are so much fun to play with and test, my passengers love sitting watching the screen as it relays all the info, even got the misses reading out AFR's during 3rd gear pulls!

Ants deal is awesome, we started with silly basemaps and half info, msefi and what Jim and Josh advised. Ants kept me uptodate as he's picked up on all the nitty gritty and I'd say with complete confidence that anyone who has this installed and mapped by Ant will be extremely happy.

Just my 2p

[Ant]

the Ms is fully wired , the only "extra" to add is the coil ground wire needs swopping from Motronic to MS, easy one wire swopover except for one thing....

being an early car, the fuel pump is primed , but unless the coil is being grounded the fuel pump relay is "off", I tested the sparks and its all pukka but as Ross uses the car for track, I left the fuel relay actuation up to him, there are 4 spare wires in the Ms harness should Ross wich to use the MS to throw the stock relay.

FYI, the motronic is left in the loop to run the dash only as the tach output for BMW is a weird pulse and almost impossible to replicate, hence the swedes etc all seeming to have dead tachos on the vids you see, common issue with all the standalones

[Widge]

That's shag, I was hoping to do away with the moronic and hide the MS ecu under the steering wheel, probably still fit there though.

[Gunni]

the Ms is fully wired , the only "extra" to add is the coil ground wire needs swopping from Motronic to MS, easy one wire swopover except for one thing....

being an early car, the fuel pump is primed , but unless the coil is being grounded the fuel pump relay is "off", I tested the sparks and its all pukka but as Ross uses the car for track, I left the fuel relay actuation up to him, there are 4 spare wires in the Ms harness should Ross wich to use the MS to throw the stock relay.

FYI, the motronic is left in the loop to run the dash only as the tach output for BMW is a weird pulse and almost impossible to replicate, hence the swedes etc all seeming to have dead tachos on the vids you see, common issue with all the standalones

Thats odd,
as the tacho signal from the motronic is NOT wierd

i have connected piggybacks to Motronic and used the tacho singla to let the piggyback know what the rpm´s where,
6pulses per revolution is all it is,

[Ant]

Agreed it should work fine, TBH it reads OK up to around 4.5K then the signal seems to drop out, possiobly related to the signal conditioner ?

letting the Motronic run the tach is no biggy TBH, just a shame some from the old has to remain

[gcorky]

is my obc gonna be useless now will it be just a clock
seriously,am i right in pressuming it will lose some function?

[Widge]

Should work fine for everything I would have though, although it won't calculate the MPG's right, will it Ant????

[gcorky]

Should work fine for everything I would have though, although it won't calculate the MPG's right, will it Ant????

just thought ,it wont calculate my mpg as im fitting 42 lb injectors
and doesnt it base its calcultion on a stock flowing injector?or am i totally wrong?

[Widge]

I think you're right cos iIIRC the MPG thing calculates from the injector dwell or whatever it's called, which I think is why they are inaccurate, as the injectors get dirty/old.

[Ant]

fraid the OBC is gonna be an overpriced clock yeah. you can try to nobble a load signal to it but ours mates in the US have tried and failed so-far.

[Widge]

It'll still do time date, speed, temp, timer, code, etc... so pretty cool clock