Track day brakes

[kingstonbe]

Hi guys, i'm getting my 325is ready for her first trip on the track and she needs a bit of work in the brakes department...

i've got a corroded brake line that is currently being replace and all the others are getting a thorough inspection aswell. The brake pedal was feeling a bit spongy prior to this,

My priority with respect to the brakes for the track day is -

(a) safety -which should be taken care of with a good brake service and inspection

(b) brakes that won't fade too bad (fast road pads will hopefully sort this)

(c) Good pedal feel, the pedal hasn't been feeling good prior to this, is the 325's pedal normally a bit vague? Anybody tried braided hoses?? Should (a) and (b) above improve the pedal feel?

As for fluid, is a higher spec neccesary for track (i.e. does dot 4 boil if you're giving it holly). As for Dot 5 etc, I have read elsewhere that this grade is much more hydroscopic, needs replacing more often and is really only for non-road use.

What's your thoughts on these issues guys?

[M5pilot]

Hi mate,

I done a track day 2 weeks ago and alot of people here helped out alot with excellent advice.

Brakes:

Brembo vented discs from GSF with Ferodo DS2500/DS3000 pads - I used new DoT4 fluid with the DS2500 and no fade at all and much better stopping power than ive ever had in an e30. Come highly recommended!

[Davenotouring]

It's a very fine line between getting fade and not getting fade.

If it is wet, the slower speeds and the cooling on the brakes normally means your brakes won't fade.

On the same track in dry weather, fading brakes is much more likely due to the higher speeds, and more regular braking.

My Civic is very light, yet on Bedford Autodrome, Ferodo DS2500s and new fluid just weren't enough, they were fading after 8 laps or so. Yet on the same track in the wet it would have been totally fine. I was going as fast as my car and my ability would allow though!

It's the most irritating thing, it kills your overall speed, and it's very worthwhile spending money in the braking department.

[Slarty_Bartfast]

I have run both DS2500 and DS3000 pads on mine and I find the DS3000 warp the discs a lot faster than the DS2500 I have tried using 3 different types of discs, including standard ones and still only last me a couple of days before the discs are warpedԚ…

I have braded hoses and up rated fluid and have no problem with fading.

Just keep warping the bl00dy discsԚ…Ԛ…

[Davenotouring]

Slarty, I think you must go hard on track!

The DS3000s are 'track only', and as you say, will warp and eat up discs pretty quickly.

The Ds2500s are ok for road, because they don't need quite so much warming up as the 3000s, but they wear down quicker than road pads. As do 3000s!

Big brakes is the way to go for ultimate braking.

[Taffy]

Wouldn't touch Ferodo, would stick to Mintex or Pagid with some decent fluid like Mintex black or Castrol SRF, I ran SRF on Mintex 1166 on standard discs and calipers and they're fine for track use. I can supply all these, email if you want prices

[Striker]

Hi,

I've only done 3 track days in my 325, Dec, Jan and Feb and yes it's been cold. All my track days have been at Elvington and braking from 100 to 20mph for one corner I have had not had any problems. Remenber I'm not racing but I have 3 mates with seven type cars (all blade engines) and I can keep with them.

My setup is as follows, cheapest discs all round, less the Ԛ£60 for the lot. Braided hoses(Ԛ£50), Ferodo ds3000(Ԛ£90) on the front, ds2500(Ԛ£50) on the rear and dot 4 brake fluid. It works for me and I go as fast as I can, but I'm not racing and for me it's for fun only.

Hope this helps

Andy

[ppcsam]

I run Pagid Yellow pads (from performance braking - 01600 713117) with braided hoses and Castrol SRF dot 5 fluid with standard BMW discs on my 325i sport. I've taken out the fogs to get some cold air ducting onto the back of the brakes too. This set up works really well (compared to standard) without fade and I haven't warped any discs (yet). We used this set up when we raced in Kumho class D and I do regular track days in the car now. Brake life always depends on how hard you use them, ABS is a killer and if you back off slightly then they will last a lot longer. Having said all that I am looking to upgrade the brakes with a proper track/race set up as soon as I can find a suitable conversion to fit under 15" wheels as this is the only long term solution imho. Make sure you do at least 1 lap to cool off after a session and don't use your handbrake when you park up.

[kingstonbe]

Thanks guys,

Interesting to see the big brake conversions compared against the mild modified set up, I think for me the mildly modded setup is preferable. I use the car every day and will be taking her to the track 2-3 times a year so i've opted for the following -

-Goodrich braided hoses all round
-Dot 4 Motul RBF600 (high boiling point)
-Pagid fast road pads
-and a new brake line!

Will let you know what she feels like

now it's time to start thinking about suspension.......

[Ceeman]

After a few track days on standard calipers, ate power discs and pagid fast road pads, i opted for a big brake upgrade. The previous set up was adequate, but i felt it needed improvement.

I fitted the Wilwood Midilite kit and it made a huge difference, much more powerful setup and a much later braking point. I had already done the braided hoses, Castrol SRF etc... but, i wasn't happy with the feel either, so a large bore master cylinder was fitted, then i was then much happier

[Slarty_Bartfast]

Will they fit under the 15Ԛâ€a wheels??? and how much??

After a few track days on standard calipers, ate power discs and pagid fast road pads, i opted for a big brake upgrade. The previous set up was adequate, but i felt it needed improvement.

I fitted the Wilwood Midilite kit and it made a huge difference, much more powerful setup and a much later braking point. I had already done the braided hoses, Castrol SRF etc... but, i wasn't happy with the feel either, so a large bore master cylinder was fitted, then i was then much happier

[ppcsam]

Still talking to Alcon about a proper trackday/race set up to fit under 15" BBS wheels. It is being seriously considered as there are so many potential applications for the kit. Lots of E30's in Kumho BMW (class C), All the Seloc cars could use them (if they are legal?) and there is the RWD challenge rally series that might allow them too. Not to mention all of us trackday enthusiasts that are looking for proper brakes. I'll keep you posted but there is a possibility of a bolt on kit for all 4 stud E30's for around 1K.

[Motorhole]

Interesting point here, but i still havn't figured out how he did it...

One of my friends used to race Formula Ford and Ford 2000's back in the early 80's. He won many races, but he reckons too many people are too hard on the brakes. He used to use standard road pads and they would last him half a season, yet he was still winning races. I know for sure that he isn't bullshitting as he has the newspaper clips and trophies to show! So how did he do it??

[DJ-325I]

Hey all, that's an interesting point. i think he wouldn't go through many sets of pads a season as formula fords are light and don't take much stopping. Therefore the pads last longer.

[Ceeman]

Will they fit under the 15Ԛâ€a wheels??? and how much??

After a few track days on standard calipers, ate power discs and pagid fast road pads, i opted for a big brake upgrade. The previous set up was adequate, but i felt it needed improvement.

I fitted the Wilwood Midilite kit and it made a huge difference, much more powerful setup and a much later braking point. I had already done the braided hoses, Castrol SRF etc... but, i wasn't happy with the feel either, so a large bore master cylinder was fitted, then i was then much happier

They fit nicely, a small spacer is required though, about 5mm min. Cost is approx Ԛ£550 i think, including pads and hoses to fit.

[OllieB]

DJ-325I can you resize your sig cos its huge and it is making my page go a bit skew wiff. Cheers....

[Slarty_Bartfast]

Sounds good, and where can I source these bad boys from???

Will they fit under the 15Ԛâ€a wheels??? and how much??

After a few track days on standard calipers, ate power discs and pagid fast road pads, i opted for a big brake upgrade. The previous set up was adequate, but i felt it needed improvement.

I fitted the Wilwood Midilite kit and it made a huge difference, much more powerful setup and a much later braking point. I had already done the braided hoses, Castrol SRF etc... but, i wasn't happy with the feel either, so a large bore master cylinder was fitted, then i was then much happier

They fit nicely, a small spacer is required though, about 5mm min. Cost is approx Ԛ£550 i think, including pads and hoses to fit.

[DJ-325I]

No probs ollie, i change it now.

[Ceeman]

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/in ... 62_563_564

These fellas, really helpful. They sent me the wrong bracket the first time, but soon got the correct item out overnight. I think it's a guy called Mark? who designs the brake conversions using willwood components, they are very well made. You do need the braided hoses though, as the connectors on the caliper are different to the standard part. They look the biz and have performed brilliantly for me,totally transforms the car on track.

I chose the Midilite kit, but the dynalite is pretty much the same i think with less dust seals or something like that

[Motorhole]

Hey all, that's an interesting point. i think he wouldn't go through many sets of pads a season as formula fords are light and don't take much stopping. Therefore the pads last longer.

In theory, yes, but many of his competitors went through a set of pads in 2 or 3 races!

He tells me that he tended to brake less and brake earlier, turn in earlier and carry more speed into the corner. The car would begin to slide and you turn on the throttle. No counter steer should be required, the slide should be completely neutral jus requiring a tad of lock and modulation of power to take the car round the corner.

I still find it hard to deviate from the slow in, fast out school though! I am just following his more sensible advice in how to not total your car: "Allways drive within your own ability and you will naturally get faster each lap, rather than going hard and fecking up and trying the same again"!!

[M3BOB]

Im running pagid fast road pads in the M3 with Ate racing blue fluid, i hav done about 5 track days recently and the brakes have been fine, a look before the last one the pads were about 1/2 way through

[Morat]

Hey all, that's an interesting point. i think he wouldn't go through many sets of pads a season as formula fords are light and don't take much stopping. Therefore the pads last longer.

In theory, yes, but many of his competitors went through a set of pads in 2 or 3 races!

He tells me that he tended to brake less and brake earlier, turn in earlier and carry more speed into the corner. The car would begin to slide and you turn on the throttle. No counter steer should be required, the slide should be completely neutral jus requiring a tad of lock and modulation of power to take the car round the corner.

I still find it hard to deviate from the slow in, fast out school though! I am just following his more sensible advice in how to not total your car: "Allways drive within your own ability and you will naturally get faster each lap, rather than going hard and fecking up and trying the same again"!!

Alain Prost used a similar technique. Unfortunately.... I'm not as good as he is/was

[Taffy]

wilwood Dynalite kit will fit under the 15" wheel, we ran them in Kumho last season and for a cheap kit they're fine, not a patch on the AP kit but 1/3 of the price at Ԛ£380, have to run decent pads with them though as the surface area is quite small.

When did you do class D of Kumho ppcsam?

[ppcsam]

My Brother Ben raced in kumho for a few years, 01/02/03 I think, then he did Seloc for a season. I helped him build and run the cars but a lack of funds and time stopped play (too much work and studying). I run his old racer as a track day car now. the new class power to weight limits are making it look rather appealing again however. I think I should stop buying road cars and save some pennies to go racing

[Taffy]

Ben Wilamowski? Get racing mate, trackdays are shite in comparison

[ppcsam]

Thats what I keep telling him Taffy. How are things looking for you this season?

[Taffy]

Things will work out, the car is looking amazing and we've done some serious work over the winter and all being equal it should be remapped and ready to roll this weekend. As long as we can sign a decent driver, which is the hardest bit, I think we have a fighting chance of winning a few and making a success of our 1st season in Britcar.

[Motorhole]

Things will work out, the car is looking amazing and we've done some serious work over the winter and all being equal it should be remapped and ready to roll this weekend. As long as we can sign a decent driver, which is the hardest bit, I think we have a fighting chance of winning a few and making a success of our 1st season in Britcar.

I'll happily drive but I can't promise I'm decent

[alexbaby88]

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/in ... 62_563_564

These fellas, really helpful. They sent me the wrong bracket the first time, but soon got the correct item out overnight. I think it's a guy called Mark? who designs the brake conversions using willwood components, they are very well made. You do need the braided hoses though, as the connectors on the caliper are different to the standard part. They look the biz and have performed brilliantly for me,totally transforms the car on track.

I chose the Midilite kit, but the dynalite is pretty much the same i think with less dust seals or something like that

Did you have to change/upgrade your brake servo? or was it just a bigger the brake master cylinder? Which model BMW's BMC?