Heel & Toe down-shifting and rev matching

[Turbo-Brown]

Is it me, or is all this a dying art?

I seem to be the only person in my little world at the moment who has any idea what the benefits of heel & toeing and rev matching are!

Anyone else use these in every day driving?

[Geeman]

Find it difficult to heel n toe with everyday driving, but I do tend to double de-clutch most of the time (and not the boy racer 'rev between gear change' thing)

Giles.

[vroooom_ptssssh]

My pal andy got to grips with it, took a bit of practice but he uses it allot when driving fast on the roads, mostly B roads tho he finds it a bit more beneficial.

[Adammcf]

I try to blip the throttle when coming down the gears as much as possible as it definitely helps a little depending on the gearing in your car.
On the Astra the pedal heights prevented doing proper toe and heal shifting but hopefully the 325 Sport has a better layout. Ive never drove one yet!

[Jimbob]

It's not exactly used in everyday driving tho so it's kind of a black art

[CaesarBob]

I use rev-matching a lot, particularly changing 3rd to 2nd.

Have been trying to practice the heel and toe too but i'm not consistent yet. When it works it feel great! Find it easiest under heavy braking, with with gentle braking i find i can let off too much when pressing the the throttle.

The right kind of shoes make this a lot easier as well.

[billgatese30]

something with thin flexible soles works best

[Adammcf]

Yeah it definitely doesnt work with Cat boots! lol

[Widge]

This is definetly a dying art. I learnt to drive in an old mini which is the best car for learning heel and toeing. I used to use it alot in the mini on country lanes. In the bmw it's more a case of matching revs to make smooth downchanges, although the pedals are ideally placed for heel and toeing. It's somthing I use a lot in the Bm totally unnessicarly so that I don't loose the knack of dooing it. It was much easier to match the revs in my mini because the exhaust was so loud you could do it by ear without concetrating!

[Quaser]

Can someone please explain the concept of Heal-Toe!

Q

[Karan]

i use heel/toe all the time, prevents jerky downchanges if u have a torquey enbgine like a 2.7.

particularly useful in the wet as downchanging from 3rd to 2nd goin into a roundabout results in arse out on downchange big time, of course u can use this to ure advantage if ure a keen drifter

its vital to stop killing ure driveline and making it round corners fast, plus it sounds cool.

Karan

[Widge]

Basically it's using you right foot to press the brake to slow the car whilst also pressing the accelerator to bring the revs up (clutch is now depressed) to match the road speed when the lower gear is engaged.
Try this
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/ ... ticle.html

[Turbo-Brown]

Really and truely, for all but the small footed, it's side of foot and toeing.

As said above, you're braking, de-clutching, changing down and blipping the throttle to raise the revs so that when you engage the clutch again, the crank is rotating at the same rate as the input shaft of the gearbox.

It's great when you get it right!

Don't forget, this should all be done before you get to a corner! The amount of people I see (and travel with) who brake and/or change gear during a corner is astounding!

[Kedge]

Got to teach myself how to do this, sounds bloody tricky though!

[Widge]

You just have to try it! Every time you down change tr braking AND blipping the throttle at the same time, eventually it will work and you'll see why we all go on about it benig great and a dying art. The floor hinged throttle on an E30 is ideal. It's not really heel and toeing as much as putting half the foot on the brake and using you're two toes to push the throttle.
It's fun trying and it's fun when it works.

[astondg]

The floor hinged throttle on an E30 is ideal.

I would have to disagree with that, I prefer to rev match with an overhead hinged throttle (or whatever its called). With the floor hinged throttle and the spongy brake pedal (at least in my car) when I try to heel and toe under hard braking the edge of my foot catches the corner of the floor hinged accelerator pedal so I have the throttle on while I am trying to slow down .

Rev matching on down changes is still important today though, so I don't think it should be a dying art. It isnt necessary like it was when cars didn't have synchros, but it still stops the back wheels from locking on a high rpm downchange, makes the downchange quicker and smoother, and helps to save the clutch (not so much the gearbox unless it is a full double clutch).

The big ratio gap between 2nd and 3rd in my car (323i) makes it hard to get a good rev match from 3rd to 2nd, I have to rev it so hard to match the revs in 2nd gear.

Anyway it is still fun to do and if I don't do it I don't feel like I am driving properly. I do it all the time on every downchange (well at least 98%) and it is fun to learn all the different rev matches depending on which gear, how hard you are braking (harder braking means more revs are dropped before you complete the change so you need less throttle blip) or even when you aren't braking, like when you want to go from 5th to 4th to go up a hill.

Aston

[Karan]

i agree the e30 isnt ideal especially when the pedal goes spongy if ure really on a mission!!!

still can be done though

[Widge]

I will have to agree to disagree!
The old mini is definetly the best car to do it in, many a racing driver has learnt in one in the past.
I have a friend who used to be a formula 2 driver in the 70's and now drives a 325i touring. He says it's one of the best cars for heel and toeing he has ever driven. He should know, he has to heel and toe and double declutch veery time to get a smooth down change in his 35B Buggati.

[Simon13]

if you have nice wide feet like me u can get your foot on both pedals and just tilt your foot down on to the accelerator. Well it works for me

[gareth]

i know that works! my size 12 feet are great for it. also useful that they're made of concrete!!!!

this technique is also good for drifting around car parks sideways at walking pace!

[rare]

I rev match all the time, makes everything much much smoother imo. Heel and toe isnt quite as easy mind:S

[astondg]

I will have to agree to disagree!
The old mini is definetly the best car to do it in, many a racing driver has learnt in one in the past.
I have a friend who used to be a formula 2 driver in the 70's and now drives a 325i touring. He says it's one of the best cars for heel and toeing he has ever driven. He should know, he has to heel and toe and double declutch veery time to get a smooth down change in his 35B Buggati.

Yeah well he should know. I think it is a personal thing though, I wear either size 11 or 12 shoes (depending on the make) and I definately find it much easier to heel and toe in my 1974 Mitsubishi Lancer with overhead hinged pedals. But I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the brake pedal in that car is hard, not spongy like in my 323i. If the brake pedal in my 323i was better it might be ok. The E30 definately has the pedals well placed, just the right distance apart.

Oh and I was passenger with someone once on a race track and they rev matched but didn't use heel and toe. So into a corner they would brake hard, come off the brakes completely, blip the throttle, get back on the brakes. I don't know why they didn't just use heel and toe, or practice it until they could, I think their way is harder than just using heel and toe. A little bit scary too when they come off the brakes and we hadn't slowed enough for the corner yet .

Aston

[e30325itourer]

sorry guys what is rev match?

[b1ondini]

I have been using toe 'n heel for a good few years now. It gives you a lot more control when slowing quickly without locking the rears up and loosing the back end.

I have done it in many different cars including my firms Nissan pickup!

It's just a matter of practice. I can't imagine pulling up from speed without doing it!

It's also useful if you want to show of to the Saxo boys at the lights. Hold the brake with your toe, throttle up with your heel and dump the clutch. If you do it right, your rears should light up without you moving. Better than spinning the fronts with your handbrake on!

As for rev matching, my first car had a knackered clutch and you couldn't downshift if the revs weren't matched. I got so good that I didn't even need to use the clutch for silent downshifts!


BMW's finest - The 325i

[gareth]

It's also useful if you want to show of to the Saxo boys at the lights. Hold the brake with your toe, throttle up with your heel and dump the clutch. If you do it right, your rears should light up without you moving. Better than spinning the fronts with your handbrake on!

this technique will allow monserous low speed drifting, just balance throttle (suprisingly little needed) with the brake til you're moving at walking pace and steer away!

[Widge]

It's also useful if you want to show of to the Saxo boys at the lights. Hold the brake with your toe, throttle up with your heel and dump the clutch. If you do it right, your rears should light up without you moving. Better than spinning the fronts with your handbrake on!

this technique will allow monserous low speed drifting, just balance throttle (suprisingly little needed) with the brake til you're moving at walking pace and steer away!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you guys all own shares in Goodyear or Yokohama???
I have to buy tyres.
Wheel spinning is a nice trick but it doesn't really get you any where,
I don't do it much because I'm concerned about having to shell out for an
other set of boots.

Or is it my imagination, does spinning the wheels at the lights really use loads of rubber??
I do like showing the Saxo boys up in a car that cost less than their exhausts

[gareth]

i find this is a good technique to kill off a non matching set of tyres and shell out on a new good matched set. i can never bring myself to remove ones with tread on still but don't like different tyres as it upsets the handling.

that's my excuse for childishness anyway!

[b1ondini]

I've got a set of diminishing Good Year's on the back which smoke really well. It looks impressive but, as you say, eats rubber.

Cheap as chips from backcircles.com (Just checked...Ԛ£150 a pair! must set my rev limiter down a bit - say 1500 revs!)

I just have this problem you see, right foot, close on 200hp, rear drive, lots of traffic lights and no connection between the brain and the wallet!!!

I have been to counselling..... it just hasn't helped!

As for the Saxo boys, I like to go round the outside of them around the roundabout with the rear drifting just a litttle bit ....... mmmmm..... nice!


"And Moses went up the hill in a triumph ..... Only to be blown away by a nutter in an E30!"

[Widge]

Cheap as chips from backcircles.com (Just checked...Ԛ£150 a pair! must set my rev limiter down a bit - say 1500 revs!)

Ԛ£150 a PAIR!!!!!!!!!!!
I got mine for Ԛ£48.50 each from a local guy. If I'm going to give all my rubber to the local council I don't see the point spending lots of money on it!
They were some make I had never heard of (can't remember now) but later found out they had come 3rd in one of Top Gear mag's tests.

How do you ajust the rev limiter or am I very stupid to ask??

[M3Compact]

Oh and I was passenger with someone once on a race track and they rev matched but didn't use heel and toe. So into a corner they would brake hard, come off the brakes completely, blip the throttle, get back on the brakes.

That's a pants way to slow down.

H&T might make the downchanges smoother for the ride, but if you don't lift the clutch whilst travelling through the neutral gate, you're not doing the best for your gearbox. (Wont spin the shafts up to speed with the clutch pressed.)

'Setting the car up' for a tight corner, by deliberately locking the rear with a downchange (especially effective with an appropriately adjusted LSD) is frowned upon by purists, doesn't half please the 'crowds' tho'.

[Widge]

If you have seen the "Drift Bible" Shift Lock is one of his methods of stsrting a drift. Why do the Japanese have the right attitude to drifting???

[Karan]

the japs are great!!!

i have started using shift lock in 2nd and its great, only use it to show boat with passengers in the car though really and only in the wet.

otherwise i just dip the clutch and boot it to jolt the driveline a bit and the arse comes out a treat! i use the handbrake aswell on occasion... lol i bet every1 frowns on this haha

Karan

[Widge]

I would have frowned on it last week. But after watching the bible it seems to be normal. Especially when you consider a drift is just an extended version of doing a hand brake turn in to a 90 degree turning say.

[b1ondini]

How do you ajust the rev limiter or am I very stupid to ask??

Dunno if you can. I dont even know if it is electronic or mechanical. I've been told you can put different springs in it but I cannot confirm this.

Anyone know?

[Widge]

Ah right. I thought you may have had a clever way of doing it.
For the motronic cars it's electronic and controlled by the ECU.