Decisions Decisions... what to do?

[flybynite]

First post on here so hi to all

I have a bit of a quandary opinions would be welcome!

I have an '83 323i that I have owned for a couple of decades now. It has been off the road and sheeted up inside for much of that. It is in pretty good nick, done about 80k. Always had niggles with noises in the engine, after two rebuilds and really close checking could neither fault the engine nor make it quiet. otherwise it is still good.

I also have an '89 e34 535i sport that has been in the family in similar condition. Tatty body but good engine

Time has probably come to do something with them. The thoughts I had.

1. Take it back to original, remove the minor tinkering I did to it in my youth and restore it properly to standard. (leave engine as-is)
2. Tweak it a bit but keeping mostly OEM, stroker engine, cloth to leather and few subtle bits.

Both of the above would see me tidy up the 535i and keep that as a whole car possibly to sell it.

3. Use the E34 as a donor for a M30 conversion including as much that could be swapped.

I don't want to rip it out and drift it or anything like that and I would be lying if I did not have a bit of sentimental attachment to them especially the 323. Would be nice to see it on the road.

Thoughts?

[martauto]

Hi and welcome to the Zone mate !!
You have TWO classic cars there , either of which are most sought after so in my opinion, keep both cars as original, to mess with the e34 is a sackable offence in its own right.

Mart.

[TurtleDesignTech]

Since it is hard to keep 2 classic cars on the road, let alone have time to work on them, I would:

Give the E34 a good clean and sell it. ---> Use the proceeds to restore E30 to original and keep it on the road. ---> Enjoy driving it.

[flybynite]

Ha! thanks for the quick reply, don't want to get sacked!

Had all the intentions of making a 333i with the gear off the e34 but taken so long over it I guess even the e34 is becoming a bit scarce.

Would you do anything to the 323i? it was de-chromed, colour coded, projector lights, different wheels but nothing that could not be undone.

The only problem I had with it was that engine and its noises (really loud ticking at cold idle, and a faint 'knock' like big end or piston-slap. Tore the engine down twice, nothing no witness marks, even changed for later pistons. Still the same. Then bought an E36 M3 but could never bring myself to get rid of the old E30.

Thought stroking the engine to 2.7 might sort it out but it didn't hang around at 2.3

[rix313]

I’d say 10 years ago when there weren’t worth anything, fill your boots.

I love the chrome. If it was me I would be looking to re-instate that feature if you can find the bits.

[flybynite]

Still deliberating over this

I could get it back to chrome easy enough most of it was just overpainted with cellulose. The obligatory 80s speaker holes could be sorted and maybe find something more original wheel-wise than is on it.

My main quandary now is the engine. The 2.3 M20 currently in it has never been a happy engine, a lot of effort went into it with no improvement, killed a lot of the joy of driving it before I put it off the road. Something would need doing

I would just use the M30B35 from the 535iSport we have but too many are telling me to keep that in one piece especially given the condition. I know it would be a big lump at the front but it would be kind of in keeping with a chromie and be a good lazy cruiser.

I could try and sort out the M20, boring it out and stroking it could solve some of the problems it had but the 323i was jetronic, no ABS no PAS and to do anything to that engine would need a switch to Motronic at least. Parts for all this are getting harder to find these days

I have looked hard at the M50/52 but none of it is as straightforward as a M30 and I do wonder about lifting the bonnet on a chrome E30 and seeing a modern engine just doesn't seem right?

If I was going that route I would do M54, at least the double vanos would give the lazy torque of the M30 and 330ci's can be had for not much money now. Surprised there is no M54 section in the forum. It would seem an engine swap of that complexity of wiring could benefit from a wiki as the threads of people that have done it tend to top 100 pages

Given the price drop in some late model BMW 'donor'cars what would someone do now?

[Speedtouch]

Why not either build a 2.7/2.8 'stroker' with your existing 323i engine, or swap it for the later M20B25 and enjoy 170bhp as it is, with further potential for improvement...

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.7

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.8

[steve_k]

Why not either build a 2.7/2.8 'stroker' with your existing 323i engine, or swap it for the later M20B25 and enjoy 170bhp as it is, with further potential for improvement...

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.7

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.8

or turn the 2.3 into a 2.6 m20??

[flybynite]

Why not either build a 2.7/2.8 'stroker' with your existing 323i engine, or swap it for the later M20B25 and enjoy 170bhp as it is, with further potential for improvement...

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.7

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.8

Yeah I read through all of those I don't know if it is me but the bits to do either of them seem a bit scarce these days. Being Jetronic I would need to source a whole motronic system to do a stroker or a M20B25. I would prefer to work off a full donor car but they are few and far between and even scouring ebay etc there is not a great choice and going for silly money.

Even e36 cars aren't as plentiful as they used to be

It is just a whole running 330ci can be had for not much over a grand these days

[flybynite]

Why not either build a 2.7/2.8 'stroker' with your existing 323i engine, or swap it for the later M20B25 and enjoy 170bhp as it is, with further potential for improvement...

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.7

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.8

or turn the 2.3 into a 2.6 m20??

Got a link to how that is done?

[steve_k]

Why not either build a 2.7/2.8 'stroker' with your existing 323i engine, or swap it for the later M20B25 and enjoy 170bhp as it is, with further potential for improvement...

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.7

http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... ding_a_2.8

or turn the 2.3 into a 2.6 m20??

Got a link to how that is done?

sorry no but there are a few threads floating around online (e30tech mainly) about a few folk doing it.

[flybynite]

or turn the 2.3 into a 2.6 m20??[/quote]

Got a link to how that is done?[/quote]

sorry no but there are a few threads floating around online (e30tech mainly) about a few folk doing it.[/quote]

Had a look around at that, can't see that it is much benefit going over the 'standard' 2.8. Have to admit the 24v engines don't really do it for me sound wise so would be prepared to put a bit of work into the O'l M20

[steve_k]

The main benefit of a 2.6 m20 is that you get a "as new" engine (rebuilt) also it's not as "common" as a 2.7/8

A properly built 2.6 m20 with a decent cam & light weight fly wheel will feel how a 2.5 should feel & rev/pull very cleanly.

[Speedtouch]

Alpina built several variants based on the M20B23:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpina#Alpina_C1

[steve_k]

Alpina built several variants based on the M20B23:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpina#Alpina_C1

so did hartge with the early H26, tempted to start one myself now i've got a nearly new b23 (76.2mm) crank.

[Speedtouch]

Indeed, why not, eh?

[steve_k]

Indeed, why not, eh?

thats the plan, just need to get a few more parts then off we go.

[flybynite]

So am I right in thinking (starting with a B23) it would need boring out to 84mm, standard B25 pistons, an 885 head but keep the B23 cam with a thicker head gasket?

Starting with a M20B23 I would need the Motronic upgrade as well, kind of brings me back to getting a complete donor car or just going B28/M30/M5x

[Speedtouch]

Sounds about right. You may as well just buy a complete donor M20B25 and Motronic 1.3 setup (ideally, a high compression 25 6E version) to go with it - possibly the gearbox as well...

[flybynite]

Which cars had the 25 6E? I thought all E30 era UK cars had it but I’m no B25 expert

A donor car is definitely the way to go I could use a lot off a 325 While I’m at it I would probably retrofit ABS and maybe power streering as well as the engine bits and Motronic. It is a lot of work with parts bought piece by piece that are difficult to test off the car and expensive to put right if they are duff.

Trouble is running donor 325 are not that common and fetching silly money for what they are. Anyone know a good one?

It is what brings me back to M52B28 or M54B30 as it would not be a HUGE amount more work than a Motronic retrofit and engine rebuild and full running donor cars can be had for around £1000 any day of the week. Or I could use the E34 I have already and go M30

Finding a good donor B25 would probably make the decision especially an old rusty chromie as it may have a bit or two I’m missing.

[Speedtouch]

325i up to around mid 1988 had the high compression 25 6E engines - from around 1989 onwards, they went over to the low compression 25 6K version, which generally aren't as responsive nor as powerful/torquey, though some people on here have achieved similar dyno results with theirs...

[steve_k]

have a read through these. look like a few folk have gone down the 2.6 route

http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/142069 ... a-2.6l-M20

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83277

i've got a 2.6 m20 waiting to go in but i built mine using a m52b25 crank & H section rods & +1mm pistons to give it 2554cc (in effect a 2.6).

have a read through those threads, should find a bi of info in there.

[flybynite]

have a read through these. look like a few folk have gone down the 2.6 route

have a read through those threads, should find a bi of info in there.

The more I look at this the more I like the sound of it. It doesn't seem worth it at first look but it is actually what I am looking for.

I don't want or need max power, I have other cars for that. I just want to make my e30 good to drive and cure the problems I had with the B23.

The more I read the more I want to get rid of the 130mm con rods. It seems there is opinion even on here that it causes problems.

It reflects the issues I had and chased for years and one of the reasons I would be reluctant to go the 2.8 route.

On the B23 I had a 'clonking' sound quite often. First strip of the engine, it was perfect, no wear or play anywhere just the faintest sign of witness marks on the piston skirts hitting the bore.

Later design pistons were fitted on a second strip. Lessened the problem just never went away. What I read now about increased side load with 130mm pistons ties in with the problems I had. Putting them in a 84mm bore may change the dynamic but I would prefer to go a different route.

Now to the nitty gritty. Who would people recommend for a thicker head gasket in the UK has a brief look but no joy.

Also it was recommended above to get a 6E engine, but I was wondering if a 6K would work better? need less of a head gasket to get similar compression and maybe clearance

[Speedtouch]

Cometic MLS head gaskets are multi-layered and come in a range of thicknesses.

http://www.cometic.com/

[flybynite]

Well I’ve gone mad and started a thread on this in the M20 engine section