electric window problems (again)

[steve_k]

afternoon folks,

back with an age old problem,

my electric windows have pack in again,

i thought i had "fixed the problem last time (twice), i replaced the motor on the drivers side as it had finally given up, the the switch packed in, replaced it with what i thought was a known good one, worked for a while then started playing up again & has now packed in altogether.

now i don't fancy hunting down the large white base e36 switches (can't find them anywhere, i just want to get these fixed properly.

my main question is, could it be the switch base &/or the wiring?? thing is, when the ignition is in pos 2 or with the door open the switches light up, the window winds down but not back up again (unless i put 12v straight to the motor)

so that makes me think it's either the base for the switch of the wire somewhere from the switch to the motor is damaged, if so which wire is it??

if so i'd rather wire up a 5 pin universal rocker window switch that i've been given to try by a mate after he had a similar problem with his ford galaxy.

these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221274298074? ... EBIDX%3AIT

i dont fancy fitting a 2nd hand window switch to have to do it all again later.

so if i do decide to wire these in what sequence does the wires go??

any help would be gratefully received, but please keep it simple lol

help me out please folks as it's doing my head in.

[steve_k]

forgot to add, have followed this section of the wiki article to the letter
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

To troubleshoot, use a flat screwdriver to prise up two window switches from the centre console, and swap them over. Now test the windows. If they work, the fault is the switch, which is usually dirty contacts. These can be cleaned up with a small (nail?) file or scraper and Contact Cleaner spray. Never use sandpaper.
If none of your electric windows work with the front doors open, check fuse 28. If your electric windows only work with the door open, but not with the ignition on, then check fuse 17. If they still don't work, pull out relay K5 and link together pins 30 and 87 of its socket with a short piece of wire. If this makes them work the relay is either faulty, or there is a problem with the unloader circuit, associated (on facelift cars) with the green/black wire to the starter motor. In this latter case, you will probably have a non-working heater blower and non-working door mirrors as well. A known symptom is that the green/black wire terminal on the starter motor works loose; tighten it up again by hand and refit the wire, and your windows should now work.

from what i can see the green black wire on the stater is intact & not damaged & nice & tight,

any other ideas??

[Tedswagon]

are the guides free - with the motor disconnected can you move the glass up and down freely? If the glass goes down no prob but not back up - is there something which is blocking it? same for the operating mechanism?

[steve_k]

are the guides free - with the motor disconnected can you move the glass up and down freely? If the glass goes down no prob but not back up - is there something which is blocking it? same for the operating mechanism?

the window will wind up or down freely if i put a 12v source direct to the motor (a known good motor bought from magpie on here) but will only wind down on the switch.

thats what makes me wonder if its the base of the switch or the purple wire that passes through the A pillar to the motor.

[Brianmoooore]

If you bought a second hand 'working' switch and then just fitted it, then I'm not surprised that it has failed again. This switch will have also spent 30 years face up, collecting all the grit and debris that lands on it.
Switches need to be taken apart, cleaned, and then reassembled with a touch of silicon grease. They will then be fine for another 25 years or so.
Your mate's case is also irrelevant - he has a Ford, where the design of every single component has been carefully scrutinised to save the last 1/100 of a penny with no regard to engineering quality, other than to get the car to the end of its warranty period. You have a BMW.
Window switches light, meaning power is getting to them, so you can ignore cut out switches, fuses, relays, starter motors, etc.
If the problem stays the same with the switches swapped between passenger and driver's side, then that isn't the problem either. Very unlikely to be the motor either, assuming it's the later scissors type.
That leaves the infamous 'A'pillar plug and socket, which the wiring passes through, but this should equally affect up and down.

[steve_k]

If you bought a second hand 'working' switch and then just fitted it, then I'm not surprised that it has failed again. This switch will have also spent 30 years face up, collecting all the grit and debris that lands on it.
Switches need to be taken apart, cleaned, and then reassembled with a touch of silicon grease. They will then be fine for another 25 years or so.
Your mate's case is also irrelevant - he has a Ford, where the design of every single component has been carefully scrutinised to save the last 1/100 of a penny with no regard to engineering quality, other than to get the car to the end of its warranty period. You have a BMW.
Window switches light, meaning power is getting to them, so you can ignore cut out switches, fuses, relays, starter motors, etc.
If the problem stays the same with the switches swapped between passenger and driver's side, then that isn't the problem either. Very unlikely to be the motor either, assuming it's the later scissors type.
That leaves the infamous 'A'pillar plug and socket, which the wiring passes through, but this should equally affect up and down.

brian, the switches where opened up & cleaned as per the wiki before they were tried.

as for my mates car that was mention in regards to the fact he had a similar problem & wired in a universal switch (which he gave me the spare one to try).

the motor is a known good one i got off magpie on here & was tested both OFF the car prior to fitting & again ON the car when fitted so i know that problem does not lay with the motor.

the reason i ask about the socket on the A pillar is because like i said the window will wind down on the button/switch but not back up,

how would i go about checking it?? can't find a thing online about it either, from what i can gather the purple wire goes from the switch to the motor down under the carpet, along the sill & upto the socket in the A pillar, could the wire be damaged slightly somewere along it's path to the motor?? or could it be a problem with the socket??

[Brianmoooore]

One wire to the motors from the switches is black and the other is purple. One window is just plain purple and black, and the wires to other windows are black with a tracer colour and purple with a tracer colour, but the main colours for all windows are purple and black.
Both wires are used, whether the windows are going up or going down - the difference is one wire has 12 volts + on it and the other earthed when they go up, and the other way around when they are going down. When the windows aren't moving, both wires are earthed, shorting the motor windings, which operates as an electric brake to some degree.
The pins these wires are connected to in the A pillar connector aren't normally the first ones to corrode - the central locking pins fail first because they are live all of the time, followed by a couple of the door mirror pins, because these are live all the time the ignition is on. Window pins are only live when the window is moving, so the other pins are likely to be a complete mess, or already have been repaired, before any damage occurs to these.
As for problems at other places along the route, very rarely you may find a bad crimp where a pin is connected to a wire, but this is rare.
You could try bypassing one of the two wires at a time, all the way from the switch to the motor, to see if the problem goes away.
The fact still remains though, that you say the window winds down, but not up, which points towards the switch at fault rather than the wires, although the fact that the motor uses more current to go up than down may be relevant.

[steve_k]

thanks for that Brian i'll check the A pillar socket & see if there is any corrosion, thing is, central locking/mirrors all work fine.

you say i could bypass the two wires, would that be a simple case of disconnecting the two wires at the switch end & motor plug end & letting in new wiring but passing it through the A pillar socket if there's room??

RE, the motor, like i say it was tested both ON & OFF the car with a seperate 12V source (spare battery).

[steve_k]

also the car is a 2 door,

the only black wire leading from the switch is a black/grey yet the wires at the motor are purple & a black/grey wire.

[Brianmoooore]

The bypass wires are only temporary, to narrow down as to where the problem is exactly. Once that's done, then it can be repaired, and the original wires used.
There should be a purple/something wire from the switch.
Other wires at the switch should be green/grey (12 volts+ in) and two brown earths.
Check the two brown earths carefully - they're the only wires which aren't used to both power the motor up and down. One is used when the window is going up, and the other only used when it's going down, and a problem with the appropriate one would give the fault you're experiencing.

[steve_k]

Thanks again Brian.

What's the best way to check them? Visually or multi meter? Also I take it they run up behind the radio towards the accessories socket behind the clove box. Don't fancy taking the seats/carpet out to trace them.

[steve_k]

Before I forget, I opened one of the switch bases, the purple wire seemed to be a bit on the lose side, makes me think this might have something to do with it aswell.

[Brianmoooore]

The more I think about it, the more I gravitate towards one of the browns being the problem. If you have a meter, check for zero resistance between the two brown wires at the switch. If there's any measurable resistance then that's the problem.
All the brown wires from the switch area are about 300mm long, and join together half way down the LH side of the transmission tunnel.
Loose purple wire would affect the window going up and down, not just one way.

[steve_k]

The more I think about it, the more I gravitate towards one of the browns being the problem. If you have a meter, check for zero resistance between the two brown wires at the switch. If there's any measurable resistance then that's the problem.
All the brown wires from the switch area are about 300mm long, and join together half way down the LH side of the transmission tunnel.
Loose purple wire would affect the window going up and down, not just one way.

looks like i know what i'll be doing soon enough then, making a check list of what to check/test,