210bhp ath the wheels

[maxfield]

Well my dads M3s been having a new engine managment.
ive been with my dad today and he says the car was pushing out 210 at the wheels i don't know whether this is true or not i haven't seen the dyno sheet. While getting 210rwhp the header got very hot (glowing red) and pulled away from whatever its attached to. so i have a few questions to ask.

1. Would it be possible to get 210rwhp from a standard S14 with just engine managment and air intake?
2.What would be better a good custom header or a group A header?
3. Whats the standard rwhp of 215hp 2.3?

edit
4. what hp is this on the flywheel?

[maxfield]

Anyone?

[Kos]

you lose about 10% power thru your transmition(ie gearbox and diff) so that equates to 231hp, so for a standard s14 with management thats not too bad standard power is usually between 195 (euro cat spec to 215 for the evo 2's). management will just basically get your engine spot on with mapping, it hardly ever givers you more that a few HP at peak revs unless its turbo, then the usually whack up the boost,
also for the headers to glow red they must have been giving it some on the rollers. its not very often you hear of that unless again its turbo'd

[Chaos]

you lose about 10% power thru your transmition(ie gearbox and diff) so that equates to 231hp, so for a standard s14 with management thats not too bad standard power is usually between 195 (euro cat spec to 215 for the evo 2's). management will just basically get your engine spot on with mapping, it hardly ever givers you more that a few HP at peak revs unless its turbo, then the usually whack up the boost,
also for the headers to glow red they must have been giving it some on the rollers. its not very often you hear of that unless again its turbo'd

think again Kos - 17% is a more likely figure for transmission loss.
even if it was 10% ur maths is wrong anyways (sorry) as the wheel figure is part of the whole not the entire bit.
So using your 10% figure (cos its easier to work with) the 210 @ the wheels would equate to 90% of the whole figure
as such you would divide the 210 by 90 and times by 100.
giving a flywheel figure of 233bhp

ive seen a fair few n/a cars with glowing manifolds too.
only ever tubular manifolds tho.
last one i saw was a merc 190e 2.5-16

[maxfield]

If your saying 17-18% loss that means its producing around 250 maybe more. Which is pretty impressive.

i think my dads decided to get a custom stainless manifold and get the engine rebuilt.

[Chaos]

If your saying 17-18% loss that means its producing around 250 maybe more. Which is pretty impressive. .

well 17% odd is the generally accepted average figure for a rwd car iirc

[OllieB]

I think you remember correctly Chaos, I remember it being between 15-20% for RWD as a general rule of thumb. Anyone know what is is for AWD and FWD, just out of interest?

[Chaos]

I think you remember correctly Chaos, I remember it being between 15-20% for RWD as a general rule of thumb. Anyone know what is is for AWD and FWD, just out of interest?

fwd is roughly 15%

4wd depends on the type of system,

[OllieB]

4wd depends on the type of system,

Of course, didn't think about that. Doh!

[maxfield]

Anyone know what sort of hp it will before after:

2.5 Rebuild
284 or 290 cams
high comp pistons 11:5:1 i think
the new engine managment
new header
custom centre section
probably other stuff in the engine that i don't know about

[Kos]

you lose about 10% power thru your transmition(ie gearbox and diff) so that equates to 231hp, so for a standard s14 with management thats not too bad standard power is usually between 195 (euro cat spec to 215 for the evo 2's). management will just basically get your engine spot on with mapping, it hardly ever givers you more that a few HP at peak revs unless its turbo, then the usually whack up the boost,
also for the headers to glow red they must have been giving it some on the rollers. its not very often you hear of that unless again its turbo'd

think again Kos - 17% is a more likely figure for transmission loss.
even if it was 10% ur maths is wrong anyways (sorry) as the wheel figure is part of the whole not the entire bit.
So using your 10% figure (cos its easier to work with) the 210 @ the wheels would equate to 90% of the whole figure
as such you would divide the 210 by 90 and times by 100.
giving a flywheel figure of 233bhp

2hp, hell of difference hey!!

also, rwd will not loose more power thru tranny than a 4x4, no matter how efficient the system it

id say 10% maybe 15% at a push, every 2.5 sport i've had has produced about 150 at the wheels which is almost 170 at the fly wheel. all at the same rollers, all standard so 10% calculated loss

[WerkdE30]

Oh no this must be the most frequent argument on car forums.

Anyway all i can add is that Holden (GMH) say 33% loss through there auto. I have seen a standard 130kw at the fly Commodore ont he dyno put down 96rwk. Im a long way from being a mathamatician but that seems about right to me. So id be checkin what BMW says on the matter im sure theyd have that info somewhere after all they spend the money doin the testing.

Id be happy with 17% and very happy with 10% but that seems low even for a manual but i dunno

I do know 4x4 is goin to lose the most having an extra diff to turn and FWD the least being the shortest distance to the wheels RWD will be somewhere in the middle a good compromise in my oppinion cant beat a RWD'r

[Moofles]

only way to prove the % loss is by doing an engine dyno + rolling road...

always going to be arguments, and the % can change if you modify the car...just think about the science bit of it, where is the energy getting lost in heat, noise, between the engine and the wheels?

p.s. 150 is about 87% of 171...meaning 13% loss, i know it's not much but it is closer to the 17% chaos mentioned, i did think 10% was a tad low, but then again it depends on the car...different transmissions, etc!

[Chaos]

2hp, hell of difference hey!!

it was still wrong, and using your maths with larger power figures wud give bigger differences.

also, rwd will not loose more power thru tranny than a 4x4, no matter how efficient the system it

no ones said that tho.
4wd will always give higher losses than front or rear wheel drive.

id say 10% maybe 15% at a push, every 2.5 sport i've had has produced about 150 at the wheels which is almost 170 at the fly wheel. all at the same rollers, all standard so 10% calculated loss

try looking it up.
most engineering ppl suggest 17% is about right for rwd losses

out of interest which rollers btw

[maxfield]

These ones:

[Chaos]

These ones:

i was actually asking kos m8 - as hes claiming the one claiming some "interesting" figures.


yours are at the hubs not the wheels however - so the drag will be less.
im not sure how much loss to expect from a hubs reading - it wont be 17% but it wont be zero either.

[Kos]

p.s. 150 is about 87% of 171...meaning 13% loss, i know it's not much but it is closer to the 17% chaos mentioned, i did think 10% was a tad low, but then again it depends on the car...different transmissions, etc!

dont think the car would be producing 171, nearer 165 considering the age and milage, but as you did state there are lots of variables, eg type of transmition, tyre preasure, even the resitance of the rollers.

any way rollers were power engineerings, and back then (5years ago) they were one of the best in the country. the told me a bmw manual typically will looses 10% to 12% thru the box and diff, an auto up to 15%

but, the best way to get a power figure is with an engine dyno!

[M5pilot]

You simply cannot calculate use % as a correction factor. You can easily be out by atleast 10 bhp using this method.

As stated above there are too many variables in question to do this.

Also, different dyno's will give different run down losses to others just as they will differ in giving different RWHP figures.

I only use 1 dyno - Bexleys - this is because I know a good 325i is going to put down 165-170bhp BHP there. I also know that most 325i's and M3's lose around 27-40 bhp in transmission losses.

E34 M5's usually lose around 50-70 BHP - very wide tryes??

[Demlotcrew]

So maxfield do you have a E30 at all?

Andrew

[maxfield]

So maxfield do you have a E30 at all?

Andrew

No

[Chaos]

any way rollers were power engineerings,

yes i thought they might be.

and back then (5years ago) they were one of the best in the country

oh thats too funny.
PE havent been the best or had the best at anything ever.

. the told me a bmw manual typically will looses 10% to 12% thru the box and diff, an auto up to 15%

well im saying thats bullsh*t.
in good condition, with corectly inflated tyres etc most rwd cars in the 200bhp class (+/- 50bhp) will show an average 17% loss. some a bit more and some a bit less - but none are gonna be 10%.

please tell me tho how does ANY rr place know what the losses are ?????
they use coastdown and that cannot ever give u an accurate figure - its scientifically impossible. All u can do is make a best guess - and if anyones guessing 10% theyre on drugs.

taken from a website form someone who knows his stuff on engines and transmissions etc

"So what should you do when you take your car to a rolling road? Firstly, make sure you get printouts that show the wheel bhp and not just the flywheel bhp. Then at least you can see if they look sensible in comparison. If you have a desperate need to know the flywheel bhp then you will have to estimate it - there's no other way short of using an engine dyno.

The average front wheel drive road car with between 100 and 200 bhp loses about 15% of the engine bhp as transmission losses.

The average rear wheel drive road car with between 100 and 200 bhp loses about 17% of the engine bhp as transmission losses.

The 2% increase in losses over front wheel drive is because the differential has to turn the drive through 90 degrees at the back axle which soaks up a bit more of the engine's power."

but, the best way to get a power figure is with an engine dyno

thats the only way to get an engine power figure.

[Chaos]

So maxfield do you have a E30 at all?

Andrew

what difference does that make ?

[Moofles]

So maxfield do you have a E30 at all?

Andrew

what difference does that make ?

it's his dad's, isn't it? surely there's no problem with that, i don't think his dad posts on the forum anyway! (not that it's a problem either...!)

[maxfield]

So maxfield do you have a E30 at all?

Andrew

what difference does that make ?

it's his dad's, isn't it? surely there's no problem with that, i don't think his dad posts on the forum anyway! (not that it's a problem either...!)

Yeah it's my dads but ive driven it quite a few times.
He is a member i think he's posted about 5times its dmaxfield

[Chaos]

So maxfield do you have a E30 at all?

Andrew

what difference does that make ?

it's his dad's, isn't it? surely there's no problem with that, i don't think his dad posts on the forum anyway! (not that it's a problem either...!)

agreed moofles - and then u have ppl like dominitry who posted a bit before he bought an e30 etc

just wondered why andrew said it, seemed to me (could be wrong) to be a bit harsh

[herman]

From what I told by the true bhp is at the flywheel, then its just an estimate. A 911 must lose less power because the engine is over the wheels.
Well done maxfield you got everyone going.

[maxfield]

I dont even have a license im only 15 but im in love with E30s mostly M3s

[Chaos]

I dont even have a license im only 15 but im in love with E30s mostly M3s

dont worry about it m8,
nothing wrong with that.

ur dad a has a cool car

[Kos]

any way rollers were power engineerings,

yes i thought they might be.

and back then (5years ago) they were one of the best in the country

oh thats too funny.
PE havent been the best or had the best at anything ever.

. the told me a bmw manual typically will looses 10% to 12% thru the box and diff, an auto up to 15%

well im saying thats bullsh*t.
in good condition, with corectly inflated tyres etc most rwd cars in the 200bhp class (+/- 50bhp) will show an average 17% loss. some a bit more and some a bit less - but none are gonna be 10%.

please tell me tho how does ANY rr place know what the losses are ?????
they use coastdown and that cannot ever give u an accurate figure - its scientifically impossible. All u can do is make a best guess - and if anyones guessing 10% theyre on drugs.

but, the best way to get a power figure is with an engine dyno

thats the only way to get an engine power figure.

some body, well a few others on this forum told me you never give up a "discussion" and alway like to get the final word, this seems to be true!!
anyway power engineering rollers were pretty good, and the do look after them, having been re calibrated recently. some of their work has been very very good, some of the RS turbo's over the years have been bloody fantastic, they built my mates one about 8 years ago, its still going strong and putting down 200 at the wheels, never fucked up, ever!! not every one likes them because of their arrogant attitude, the think they are right about everything.........hey that sounds familiar!!

so you agree that the only way to get and exact engine power output if from an engine dyno, why do you then state the 17% theory if its in accurate and impossible to then work out an accurate flywheel power figure when there are many varialbes such as gearbox, final drive, flywheel, tyres. nothing is impossible, even you being wrong!

[maxfield]

I can see this being a long thread. an ill probably learn from it

[ShepsEvo3]

My Evo2 (standard) with Bexleys chip has 176BHP at the road wheels,

My Sport Evo (standard except some numpty fitted a 2.3 crank so much lower compression........urbo anyone?) has 178BHP at the wheels.

I usually calculate about 20% losses.

210BHP at the wheels is very, very good. There are other modded 2.5 s14's that "only" have abiut 190-195BHP at the wheels.

[Kos]

you will as opinions vary, get your old man to ask TDI whet they think the car looses in HP from fly wheel to wheels

[maxfield]

He says they said 15%

[Kos]

that i could live with, but i dont trust TDI !!

[maxfield]

that i could live with, but i dont trust TDI !!

How come whats your problem with them?