Turbo M50/52

[joeross]

hey guys,

im building a new engine for my e30 i have an m52 engine which i am stripping and rebuilding into an m50 block with shrick cams and standard m52 internals and crank, with the usual 0.140 mls head gasket and ARP studs

after some more info on m50/52 turbos

what turbos are you running ?

where/ who makes a manifold with possibility for external gates

mapping/ ecu, standalone ?

what injectors should i use ?

any aditional mods/ sensors ?

and where are you tapping off for your oil feed and drain to the turbo ?

any help would be much appreciated ! as i am a bit lost when it comes to the turbo aspect of things

[ross_jsy]

I'm building mine round a Holset HX40.

Look up Blunt tech m50 turbo manifold. Will need a bit of modification for RHD but I am very impressed by the quality.

Mapping, there is a guy called Gunni who has done Craig's car and is very good. VEMS have a plug and play ECU available.

Injector size depends on power.

Oil feed comes off the oil pressure sender, oil drain into sump.

Hope that helps, I'll post some links when I'm home on my laptop tonight

[joeross]

Ok that's a great help thanks ! I have been looking at a t70 turbo as supposedly it has a slightly smaller compressor housing causing it to spool up in the lower Rev range which is what I am after ideally after around 450/ 500 would be nice from it I think, I'll have a look at the manifold now ! What sort of modification is required to fit rhd ?

[ross_jsy]

Borg Warner make very good turbos with great spool. That is around the power Craig's build is at so maybe look at the turbo he is using.

The wastegate pipe will put the wastegate right by the steering column. I think I have pictures on my laptop. I'll be repositioning the wastegate pipe for better clearance. The manifold is made of very thick stainless so cutting it and welding won't be a problem

[joeross]

ok cool that mani looks good reviews sound promising so will go for that ! got my m50 stripped down today ready for the new internals so making progress slowly, Turbo is the only thing i am unsure about thus far as dont want to spend an absolute fortune on it but dont want to go for a shit one haha.

ah yeah i would like to bring the wastegate up top near to the turbo not sure how well it would work with a pipe that long on it ?

what sort of power are you aiming for with yours ? any pics ?

[ross_jsy]

If you are looking for a cheap turbo that will last forever and cost peanuts to get rebuilt, look at the Holset range like I did. Granted, they will be lagier than other turbos but they are very good. I picked my HX40 up for £300 used.

Not sure on power, it started as a simple MLS head gasket and ARP's jobby, then I found piston damage so decided to do it properly and use an m54b30 crank, eagle rods and will be going for Wiseco pistons to drop the CR and possibly go for a 2mm overbore. I wouldn't mind seeing what the turbo can do, some say 700+ is possible.

I plan on moving the wastegate closer to the turbo. Because of the design of the manifold it will shorten the pipe. I hope to get the pipe as short as possible and angled better into flow to improve boost control.

Have a look here for VEMS plug and play:

https://shop.vems.hu/catalog/vems-motronic88-p-187.html

It hasn't been released properly yet but they are very helpful if you email them.

Not done much to the car lately as I have embarked on a degree so funds are tight for the next couple of year but engine is currently stripped and awaiting machine work. This is what it looked like in the bay with the Blunttech manifold and HX40:

[joeross]

looks ace mate ! i will have a look at the hx turbo then sounds decent enough for what i am after, yeah sounds like the same deal as mine haha was just going to put an m52 in it before now turned into a massive rebuild track car project haha pretty much replacing everything on the car it seems so many parts around the house just waiting for the car to be stripped and painted lol

ok sound i will have a look at that plug and play loom !

a friend of a friend works at/ fr omex and supposedly can do a full standalone for around £500 or so with mapping so may go for that if i can !

[ross_jsy]

It's never ending! I really need to stop getting eyes bigger than my wallet and get it finished to be honest.

The ecu plugs into the standard loom. I am using a loom made by a zoner called DanThe which is plug and play and the ecu will plug into that.

Don't know anything about Omex but that sounds like a very good deal.

As for Holsets, I think a HX35 will be big enough for your needs but its been a while since I have looked at them so best do some research. They come in various sized hot sides and both internal and external wastegates

[Mikey_Boy]

Great stuff...! I can't see a 700hp M52 lasting too long (I make that about 280hp/litre).. Group A Sierra Cosworth engines (580hp which is 290hp/litre) were lifed at 3 hours...

[ross_jsy]

233 hp/l or 219 with a 2mm overbore at my working. Should be fine, race engines performing at 100% all the time and road engines are very different things.

Saying that, there's countless drift builds running similar power levels that aren't popping every 2 minutes. The swedes love a turbo m50.

Quite a few 1000hp+ s5x builds, but that is a touch silly!

[Mikey_Boy]

The Swedes are just rebuilding them every 5 mins instead....!

Any one can turn up the boost - getting the rest right is the real trick...

[ross_jsy]

Better tell my friend with the 326 hp/l 2.3 Evo X it's due a rebuild then, although 30k since the work was done and it's going fine. I know as I was out in it last weekend. Jesus H Christ it's quick!

My biggest problem will be fuel as 97 on the island is extortionate and is the best fuel we can get. Methanol injection is looking likely.

Get the basics in place like good heat management, fuelling, exhaust sizing, intercooling etc and it will be fine. It's not like it's going to be driven much anyway (or ever at the rate I'm going building it )

[Mikey_Boy]

Sounds like you know it all fella...!

I'll keep my 20+ years of engine design and development knowledge to myself...

Crack on chaps!!

[ross_jsy]

Not at all and I know you are very knowledgeable but to compare a race engine to a road engine is rather irrelevant.

Was it Ferdinand Porsche who said something along the lines of a great race engine is one that falls apart as you cross the finish line?

If AMG can sell an A class with a 180hp/l output with a warranty in show rooms up and down the country, 220 isn't that unrealistic (note, I'm not trying to say I'm as knowledgable as AMG). Either way, there are countless tuner cars with crazy specific outputs, and granted, there are countless more that have blown up on the first dyno pull no doubt! Go into in knowing it's not going to take you to the moon and back and has the potential for big bills and big failures like any highly modified car and there isn't mich to lose.

I was hoping to pick your brains on crank case ventilation at some point as I think it was you who gave me some advice in the past about oil catch cans

[Mikey_Boy]

Close - it was Colin Chapman... Porsche would want the engine to last double the race distance...!

It's actually the point I am trying to make, albeit not very well. Road engines and race engines are not a fair comparison you are right as the priorities are different - specific horsepower and low weight against durability, emissions and driveability for the road engine. And clearly the duty cycles for each engine type is very very different. However, chasing race car power outputs on (old) road car technology, that is, the base M52 engine is old tech is potentially troublesome. Road cars now are really impressive - your AMG example is an excellent one - improvements in engine control, materials, optimised design techniques and better understanding of durability are all factors here. Also important is what power can be transmitted to the road - no point having 500hp if all you do is spin the wheels everywhere...

There's a compromise to be had somewhere in the middle for what we want to do and heaps of information out there to help. After all, we all like a bit of a project and a bit of a tinker eh!?!?

Feel free to drop me a line about oil breathing and apologies to the OP for the hijack...

[ross_jsy]

Agreed, like I said I would like to see what the turbo can do. More than likely once I've had the dyno queen number and a bit of fun, power will come down with drivability the focus.

Was out doing logging runs in the Evo I mentioned earlier in the thread yesterday, 4th gear spinning all 4 is quite the feeling

[joeross]

What are you guys doing for loom and Ecu? I was looking at getting the e30 loom conversion from danthe on here and a friend of mine works for omen so was going to get him to make me a custom standalone Ecu but is there any other lo options like a standalone system with a standalone maf and stuff?

[Mikey_Boy]

There's a lot of great standalone stuff out there so the choice is yours really. I like Pectel (expensive), MoTeC and Emerald but that's just my view.

I'd suggest not going the MAF route for a turbo as it's tricky to map properly and can get confused by humidity - MAP sensors (manifold absolute pressure) tend to be a touch easier to control, especially if you are cranking up the boost.

[joeross]

yeah well i have a friend that works at omex so am hopefully going to get an ecu from them but i am more after a pre made loom with all sensors and what not required like a plug and play system if you like now i know there is no such thing when you're building a turbo cjharged m52 engine lol but something pretty close with any additional stuff wired in would be nice!

cheers for that i will look into a map sensor any idea where and how they are mounted to the inlet? i have seen various different types but which is best for e30?

[Keiron]

Instead of thinking what standalone you like why not speak to your tuner and see what he recommends seeing he will be doing the work .

[ross_jsy]

I ordered my standalone last week. It's VEMS plug and play, and £720

[Ashbo325i]

Should of gone for syvecs. Amazing bit of kit

[ross_jsy]

VEMS will do everything I need it to do, at a very reasonable price for PnP

[StavFC]

Don't need a HX40, HX35 is fine. In fact I'd prefer a HY35 10cm, proven at 500+ on a 2.5ltr.

But it's more important than something being a 35 or a 40 or a 6837835, it's what turbine housing is on it.

Holsets spool as fast as any other equivalent turbo, faster than most in fact, if you got the right one. The HX40 pictured earlier has a massive turbine housing by the looks of it, not one of the smaller ones you can get, so spool is never going to be quick.

A 12cm HX35 will be on full boost by around 3500rpm on your engine if it's done properly.

Group A Sierra Cosworth engines (580hp which is 290hp/litre) were lifed at 3 hours...

Because they were running homologated parts to their absolute limit, nothing to do with possible strength, just possible strength of the parts allowed to be used. Esp as the engines had to come with ridiculously high pre-turbine backpressure due to producing that power despite a ridiculously small turbine side.

The very same engines, producing more power than GrpA ones, were, and still are, lasting a VERY long time in track and road use, by using the correct parts to suit the power level, as they aren't restricted by homologation rules.

Just the same as countless other 2ltr engines do. And no reason a M50 wouldn't either.

[ross_jsy]

I've accepted that I will lose spool, hence the stroker to make up for it. Displacement FTW! I also don't want it to choke up top at all, and flow as well as possible, hence the 18cm comp housing.

Plus, I enjoy a bit of lag/high boost threshold

[Grzesiek325i]

In my country people often use chinese replicas and the work very good if you compare the price.

[Gt40e30]

Had a look at them blunt tech manifolds are they Chinese????