Why isn't E30 M3 not 6 cylinder?

[5H4K]

Not too knowledgeable on the E30s but wasn't some of the non M3s 6 pots? Just wondered why the M3 never bacame a 6 pot?

[Moofles]

weight? balance, i.e. where the engine could be located in the engine bay, more room to maneouvre with.

also at 2.3, 2.5 6 cylinders not required? i dunno much about it but it might also be more suitable for being a revvy engine?

[Simon]

The weight of the engine and placement on the front wheels is the main reason, that's why the E30 M3 is such a good handling car..

[5H4K]

The weight of the engine and placement on the front wheels is the main reason, that's why the E30 M3 is such a good handling car..

Ah I see. Makes much better sense than having a 6 pot then adding more weight at the back!

[Richy325iTouring]

also 4 pot 16v are more revy perfect for track
thats why with it revy engine and perfect balance it was and still is the unbeaten track car of all time

[Toby_Unna]

it was a homologation special built so that bmw could race a similar car in touring car series'. racing = no need for a smooth powerplant or for bags of torque, just compact size to aid handling and lots of power at very high revs.

hence a very high tuned 4-pot.

[Turbo-Brown]

also at 2.3, 2.5 6 cylinders not required?

TBH, 2.5 into a 4 pot is pushing the poing a bit. Porsche needed to use ballancer shafts to iron out the kinks in the 944 (although it really works in them) No idea if BMW bothered though, and anyway, whilst ballancer shafts make things smooth for you and me, they don't sort out the inner turmoil inherent in 4-banger engines.

Inline 6 engines on the other hand, can be perfectly ballanced

[Hap]

Alpina made the b6 3.5s in the M3 body it was a M30 egine with 260bhp, stiffer front srings from aircon car to aid with extra weight, only 62 made RJB6 and kelson have these cars

[astondg]

Like people have said,

- Balance of the car, and for the quote "Makes much better sense than having a 6 pot then adding more weight at the back!" that would keep the balance but add extra weight to the car which also effects the handling and performance.

- Racing, I think there were rules at the time about the engines?

The reviness (if that's a word?) of the engine wouldn't have been a factor (at least in the 4 vs 6 Cylinders) because usually a 2.3L 6 cylinder would rev better than a 2.3L 4 Cylinder because each cylinder has a smaller capacity so it can have a shorter stroke and if the piston has to move up and down less distance on each stroke than it can do it more times per minute (rpm).

Also I think BMW wanted a special engine for the M3 compared to the rest of the E30 range because they didn't just use the 4 Cylinder they already had but created a new one built for racing.

I don't know if having a 6 cylinder engine would effect the balance that much though. I have been passenger in an E30 M3 around a race track and driven the same track in my car (E30 323i) and the M3 felt maybe a little better but not a huge amount, and a lot of that could be to do with the suspension changes that the M3 has over the normal E30. Also I was out on the track the same time as the M3 and I was keeping up with it at first. It was a driver training day though, and by the end of the day it would slowly pull away from me a bit each lap. That would have something to do with it's extra straight line performance too. I am definately not saying that my car handles as well as an M3, just that having 6 cylinders instead of 4 doesn't make that much difference to the handling.

Aston

[Karan]

Alpina made the b6 3.5s in the M3 body it was a M30 egine with 260bhp, stiffer front srings from aircon car to aid with extra weight, only 62 made RJB6 and kelson have these cars

to add to this, hartge made six h36 cars based on the m3 chassis, using an e34 m5 engine with 320hp, cost Ԛ£60,000 backin the day, very very very rare and i bet they move along nicely too

Karan

[Toby_Unna]

usually a 2.3L 6 cylinder would rev better than a 2.3L 4 Cylinder because each cylinder has a smaller capacity so it can have a shorter stroke and if the piston has to move up and down less distance on each stroke than it can do it more times per minute (rpm).

for a road car this is true. but the m3 engine was designed to win races (the rules at the time permitted very little modification of the road car engine for race use). there isn't a problem in reving a 4-cylinder engine very high as long as you don't mind it not being too smooth, you can still use a very short stroke (as in a 4-pot bike engine).

[Rich_W]

s14 block is derived from the M10 F1 Turbo engine

[astondg]

for a road car this is true. but the m3 engine was designed to win races (the rules at the time permitted very little modification of the road car engine for race use). there isn't a problem in reving a 4-cylinder engine very high as long as you don't mind it not being too smooth, you can still use a very short stroke (as in a 4-pot bike engine).

I didn't say it couldn't be done with a 4 cylinder, just that it could also be done (and probably easier) with a 6 cylinder so the reason for using a 4 cylinder was not because it revs better.

Also bike engines are usually only 1100cc max which gives 275cc per cylinder (4 cylinder) and a short stroke where a 2300cc 4 cylinder has 575cc per cylinder so it needs a longer stroke, or a huge bore (which then makes the engine longer and effects the cars balance). A 2300cc 6 cylinder has 383cc per cylinder, so a stroke closer to the bikes.

I should mention that the M20 probably can't rev as well as the 4 cylinder engines but that has a lot to do with the M20 being SOHC so more prone to valve float than the DOHC engines.

Aston

[Andy335Touring]

to add to this, hartge made six h36 cars based on the m3 chassis, using an e34 m5 engine with 320hp, cost Ԛ£60,000 backin the day, very very very rare and i bet they move along nicely too

Karan

I might be wrong but i thought they used the E28 M5 engine with some mods like,cam and head work etc ?

[Karan]

dunno u night be right

but surely the fact that it is called h36 means it is a 3.6.....
hence a e34 enghine

[Toby_Unna]

i wondered about the badge too, i think it's an e28 engine.

maybe just h36 to differentiate it from the m30 based h35?

[Karan]

u r probably right to be honest as the e28 m5 production overlaps with the e30, the e34 m5 was a bit later...

Karan

[Simon]

Andy is right, it came from the E28, and it was a 3.5 (or 3453cc to be exact!)

[Karan]

still 286hp
wow

[ian332isport]

still 286hp
wow

286bhp

[Karan]

LOL
i have heard these give 320 easily if te old skool AFM is removed

[CaesarBob]

I'm sure the H36 used the E34 M5 3.6 engine with 315bhp+. The 6 that were produced were all H/J plate, so the E34 was well established.

The reason for this is the H36 was UK only model while mainland Europe got the H35 (M30) and the H35-24 (M88).

[Karan]

thats it bob, the h35-24 had the m88 from the e28 m5... forgot about that car

my m5 is a j reg so one of the first, so i suspect the h36 used the same engine

Karan

[CaesarBob]

Yep - think the S38 in the H36 had a bit of tinkering by Birds tho. The info i found reckoned they were 325bhp and had a full Hartge exhaust system rather than just a backbox, but not sure about cams or chips, etc. The 172mph is rather scary in an E30!

If only i'd had Ԛ£15k before xmas, i'd have bought that H36 that was for sale.

[Guest]

Guys,

The S14 engine was built to compete in the Deutche Touren Machinen (DTM). The rules stated a four cylinder engine had to be used of no more than 2.3l capacity which was raised to 2.5l

Hence the MB W201 Evo's and E30 Evo's etc. Common to refer them as "DTM" spec. They also raced OPC Calibras and Alfa Delta 155's and Audi's

[Simon]

If only i'd had Ԛ£15k before xmas, i'd have bought that H36 that was for sale.

I assume you mean the white one that was for sale on the BMWCC, I had the pictures sent to me of that car, from someone who was interested in buying it, to ask my opinion, lady was selling it she had named it...can't remember what it was but it made me lol, and there was something not quite right about it.

[c76jon]

If only i'd had Ԛ£15k before xmas, i'd have bought that H36 that was for sale.

I assume you mean the white one that was for sale on the BMWCC, I had the pictures sent to me of that car, from someone who was interested in buying it, to ask my opinion, lady was selling it she had named it...can't remember what it was but it made me lol, and there was something not quite right about it.

HETTY was its name simon
and yes the car just didnt seem right
dont get me wrong it was a real one for sure but it had had stuff swapped about and original stuff gone etc etc

HETTY ffs!!!

john

[Simon]

Ah yes....Hetty!!!

Innit !

[Toby_Unna]

undergroundstyling Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:07 am Post subject:

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Guys,

The S14 engine was built to compete in the Deutche Touren Machinen (DTM). The rules stated a four cylinder engine had to be used of no more than 2.3l capacity which was raised to 2.5l

daft question, sorry, i'm not trying to be pedantic!

but i think the s14 capacity is 2302cc - more than 2.3?

i guess maybe there was a tolerance allowed. i'm pretty sure it uses the same bore and stroke as the s38 6pot, as it's exactly 2/3 of 3453.

[billgatese30]

is it not jsut that 2003cc is rounded down to 2.3L, as in a road engine 3453cc is rounded to 3.5L or 1190cc is rounded to 1.2L etc

[Simon]

undergroundstyling Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:07 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys,

The S14 engine was built to compete in the Deutche Touren Machinen (DTM). The rules stated a four cylinder engine had to be used of no more than 2.3l capacity which was raised to 2.5l

daft question, sorry, i'm not trying to be pedantic!

but i think the s14 capacity is 2302cc - more than 2.3?

i guess maybe there was a tolerance allowed. i'm pretty sure it uses the same bore and stroke as the s38 6pot, as it's exactly 2/3 of 3453.

Yes the S14 is a 2303cc, but the above info is wrong anyway, as group A regulations meant standard size valves and standard inlet manifolds, and the M3 touring cars were overbored to 2331cc anyway.

[CaesarBob]

If only i'd had Ԛ£15k before xmas, i'd have bought that H36 that was for sale.

I assume you mean the white one that was for sale on the BMWCC, I had the pictures sent to me of that car, from someone who was interested in buying it, to ask my opinion, lady was selling it she had named it...can't remember what it was but it made me lol, and there was something not quite right about it.

That was the one i was thinking of. It's the only one i've ever seen for sale! It was never really a possibility but I could never own a car called Hetty. Can't believe someone would mess around with one of those!
[stereotype mode] Hope this isn't indicative of Women owners?