M20 chronic missfire when warm

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martinclan
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 8:40 am

Hi all. It's a long time since I posted here but I have an engine problem that I hope someone can help with.

My car is a Marlin Sporster based on the running gear from a 1989 325i. The engine instalation, including the injection and electronics is pretty much all standard BMW. The only exception is that I use an external (not in the tank) Walpro fuel pump.
The car has been running fine for 5 years.
But now it has developed a chronic missfire once the engine has warmed up. It quickly gets worse to the point that the engine comes to a halt. During this time the car does not backfire. It starts fine again when cold, always on the button, and with absolutely no sign of the problem.
So far I have changed the fuel pump and the crank position sensor - the problem is no better. I have checked the colour of the plugs - they are text book perfect. Initially I suspected fuel vaporisation - but I have pretty much now ruled that out.

Any suggestions gratefully recieved . :?

Cheers, Robin
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 9:13 am

If the thing starts fine when cold,but fails to commence when warm,I would start by checking the blue temp sensor for correct operation.

Test with a meter set to ohms,there should be a huge difference in your reading between cold and hot...


Interesting project,BTW,any more photo's,please?
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Brianmoooore
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 10:05 am

Check the blue temp. sensor AT THE PINS OF THE ECU PLUG, as described in the wiki. Do not disturb anything under the bonnet until you have done this.
If you have a post '87 wiring loom on your engine, there will be a multi pin round plug and socket under the inlet manifold, and the cause of your problem will most likely be centred around this.
martinclan
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 10:06 am

Thanks Daimlerman. I am not one for lots of pictures but here is the completed (working!) engine instalation.

Cheers, Robin

ImageNew servo by Robin J Martin, on Flickr
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martinclan
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 10:25 am

Thanks Brian

I will check that but all the connctors were well cleaned when I did the install. And it doesn't go out in the wet :)

But why would a faulty blue temperature sensor affect normal running? I thought it was just used by the ECU to richen the mixture when the engine was cold? Or perhaps it does more than that?

Cheers, Robin
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BenHar
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 10:42 am

If the sensor is telling the ECU that the engine is cold it will keep the mixture rich.

Ben
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 11:01 am

The problem isn't the pins of the plug and socket themselves, but the wiring under the lower rubber boot. It forms a water trap, and because of the presence of a live feed to the injectors, electrolytic corrosion takes place and rots the smaller wires to the sensors, followed by the injector wires themselves.
This will have probably started before the engine was fitted into the Sporster (I've seen these at the factory, BTW), and will have slowly continued, even if the car now leads a sheltered life.
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 11:48 am

Ah - OK I understand. I will have a good look at it.

Cheers, Robin
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Brianmoooore
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 1:29 pm

Brianmoooore wrote:Check the blue temp. sensor AT THE PINS OF THE ECU PLUG, as described in the wiki. Do not disturb anything under the bonnet until you have done this.
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fastdave
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Post Tue May 05, 2015 9:12 pm

I had misfire on my 325i turned out to be cracked dizzy cap ?
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Post Thu May 07, 2015 8:22 am

One thing I forgot to mention is that my engine came from a LHD import and has an oxygen sensor. Could that have any effect on the problem?
The car no longer has a cat so could I just temporarily disconnect the oxygen sensor to eliminate it from the equaition?

Cheers, Robin
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Post Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 am

The O2 sensor may or may not be faulty, but there's little point in leaving it connected if it no longer has a cat. to protect. Unplug it at a four pin round plug and socket (located under the battery tray on the original E30) and remove the O2 heater relay (one of the group of three engine relays). The ECU will detect that it is disconnected, and automatically set a substitute default signal.
The CO level may need tweaking a little on the adjustment on the AFM at your next MOT test.
I doubt if this will help with your main problem, but there's no reason to assume you just have one fault.
martinclan
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Post Fri May 08, 2015 6:04 pm

Well I made the checks as suggested and everything was A-OK. As the suspect plug is easy to get to on the marlin (bonnet sides come off) for good measure I checked that. It was as new with no corrosion evident. I peeled back the boot to be 100% sure.
So - back to square one. Any more suggestions anyone?

Cheers Robin

Ps while I was at it I checked the distributor. It was also fine. Hmm...
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Post Fri May 08, 2015 6:08 pm

Brianmoooore wrote:
Brianmoooore wrote:Check the blue temp. sensor AT THE PINS OF THE ECU PLUG, as described in the wiki. Do not disturb anything under the bonnet until you have done this.
What were the hot and cold readings?
martinclan
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 10:16 am

3600 ohms at ambient (14c)
295 ohms at running temperature (80c)

Measured at sensor. Much the same at the ecu.


Cheers Robin
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Post Sat May 09, 2015 10:43 am

Check the distributor cap and leads.

Ben
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Post Mon May 11, 2015 8:27 am

martinclan wrote:3600 ohms at ambient (14c)
295 ohms at running temperature (80c)

Measured at sensor. Much the same at the ecu.


Cheers Robin
Well I thoght I had cracked it. I discovered a small water leak from one of the inlet manifold heating pipes. It was dripping directly onto the connector for the injectors. I fixed it and then went for one of my favourite drives. Everything fine for about 35 miles but then 5 miles from home the problem re-occured. Doh.

Robin
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Post Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:47 am

Still suffering from the misfire. Since my last post I have moved the coil - it is now on the bulkhead away from any heat source. And I added a fuel pressure gauge.

Yesterday the misfre re-appeared big time. But now I have some more clues.
1. The fuel pressure gauge indicated that everything on the fuel side was fine.
2. I noticed that, during the misfire, the rev counter misbehaves. The needle twitches and over reads the revs. The rev counter is driven directly from the ECU output.

So now I am wondering whether it is the actual ECU that is at fault. Do they fail?

The other thing I have been thinking about is this problem started last year after I changed the alternator (the original one had developed noisy bearings). The replacement was from a reputable source but not Bosch as the orginal. Could there be a fault with the alternator that would cause it to interfere with the ECU perhaps?

Cheers, Robin
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:30 am

Just come to this one from your other thread on the Motronic.

First thing worth mentioning here, I had a chronic misfire when under load with the car hot and the cause was the Bosch plugs. Simply switching back to the NGK BPR6ES cured it.
The plugs looked fine, a plug chop came up ok with the light grey/brown deposits, resistance etc tested ok, they seemed fine but when hot under load they just produced an awful misfire, this is something I have heard from a few sources.
Ant (Atech) used to swear by the NGK plugs and I know understand why.

The misfire almost felt like water in the dizzy cap, if you have had an old BL mini then you know that feeling, It's like you have slapped the throttle shut and the engine looses all power and misfires all over the place.

While hunting mine I eliminated the fuel pump, CPS, coil, AFM, leads, dizzy cap, blue temp sensor and fuel pressure before even thinking the seemingly ok plugs could be the cause. I could have sworn mine was a fuel issue as well.

I have replied to your other thread but will copy it here in a second.
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:52 am

Ok - copying this over to here.

One question, can you tell if the misfire is constant, intermittent, at full or partial throttle?
You say you have changed the CPS, did you get a multi meter out, check the resistance while someone turns the engine or waves a bit of steel past the sensor to check its resistance changes with the magnetic flux?

---------------------

Someone built a sportster on here a while back, from what I remember it takes the E30 rear sus and engine/drive train complete right?

All the engine wiring is pretty much identical to the E30.

Regarding the ECU, while not 100% in tune with the details of the operation of the 1.3 I can tell you this:

CPS is critical, this is unlikely to be your issue but is easily checked if you have a spare one, Where in the country are you? I have a sensor that I extended the lead on to use as a diagnostic sensor, can be fitted and the cable looped over the rocker cover in about 2 minutes.

Air flow meter is how the ECU senses load, the ECU is relying on the AFM to get the timing and fuelling right at partial load.

Air and Coolant temp sensors - these more or less act as a fuel and timing adjustment to the base map, If these are dead it will cause over or under fuelling at nearly all engine temps and loads bar full throttle.

Oxygen sensor only functions at partial load and tries to trim partial load fuelling to stoichiometric.

Throttle switch has 3 function - closed for idle control (should click as it closes) Partial throttle and full load, full load is at about 80% throttle or more.
It is a very simple TPS and is not variable, its only really on or off so either works or it doesn't.

The inductive sensor on the plug lead is there to act like a cam sensor.
The dizzy is driven directly from the camshaft so detecting the high frequency pulse done HT lead 6 tells the ECU where in the cycle the engine is.
Not sure what the ECU does with this though. :mad:

The motronic 1.3 is really bloody simple in its function, not much more than a high powered Casio calculator. That said it's simplicity does make it reliable provided the inputs and the mechanicals of the engine are ok.
2.8 development thread http://www.e30zone.net/modules.php?name ... c&t=170822

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martinclan
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:39 am

HairyScreech wrote:Ok - copying this over to here.

One question, can you tell if the misfire is constant, intermittent, at full or partial throttle?
You say you have changed the CPS, did you get a multi meter out, check the resistance while someone turns the engine or waves a bit of steel past the sensor to check its resistance changes with the magnetic flux?

---------------------

Someone built a sportster on here a while back, from what I remember it takes the E30 rear sus and engine/drive train complete right?
It was me who built the Sportster :-) It's been runnng fine for five years - until now that is... The engine and ECU is all standard E30 including the engine loom.

I fitted a new CPS. The fault didn't change.

The missfire starts firstly missing the odd "fire". Only just noticable. It then gets progresively worse, and I guess, missing serveral "fires" on several cylinders. This happens on and off for perhaps 15 minutes untill it gets to the point that insufficient power is generated to move the car!

About the only thing, directly associated with the ECU, that I haven't changed is the AFM. But I am begining to suspect something more simple at this point although I throughly inspected the rotor arm and distributor cap and they both appeared fine. The leads are also relatively new OEM.

The missfire first started some weeks after I changed the alternator. I was starting to wonder if the alternator was interfering with the ECU somehow (Longshot I know) But I eliminated that this weekend by running the engine with the aternator disabled - fault still appeared.

Any suggestions greatfully received.

Oh - and one thing I should mention - I am an electrical engineer by profession - but so far that has only served to make the problem even more frustrating lol.

Cheers, Robin
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HairyScreech
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:49 am

Thought it might have been you but I checked your old post and was sure you built a 2.8 for this thing.
As I could not see it I jumped to the conclusion we had 2 on her. :mad:

Unlikely for the Alternator to cause EMF problems.

Experience has told me the dizzy cap/rotor is quite reliable, if its clean and the gaps are reasonable then it just works.

Do you know what brand of plugs it has in it?

Have you checked the leads?

Can't help but think something is breaking down electrically when hot.
Being an electrical engineer I am sure you checked hot an cold right?
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:23 pm

HairyScreech wrote:Thought it might have been you but I checked your old post and was sure you built a 2.8 for this thing.
As I could not see it I jumped to the conclusion we had 2 on her. :mad:

Unlikely for the Alternator to cause EMF problems.

Experience has told me the dizzy cap/rotor is quite reliable, if its clean and the gaps are reasonable then it just works.

Do you know what brand of plugs it has in it?

Have you checked the leads?

Can't help but think something is breaking down electrically when hot.
Being an electrical engineer I am sure you checked hot an cold right?
In fact the 2.8 engine Sportster was another guy. I just have a 2.5...

I visually checked the leads and they are either Bremi or Beru (cant remember). There is no sign of any deterioration on the outside at least. But I didn't replace them when I built the car so they could be originals....

The problem is definitely worse the longer the engine has been running for a while so it is defo associated with something getting hot (or hotter at least).

Cheers, Robin
Last edited by martinclan on Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:24 pm

Coil?
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Post Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:01 pm

Think he's tried that, E30 coils tend to be pretty reliable as well.

I bought a new one recently as it was so cheap but still have 3 perfectly working ones floating about.
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Post Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:33 pm

The problem seems to be solvled :-). The solution was not what I expected at all.

The Low Pressure fuel pump had failed. The HP pump was managing to pull fuel through the swirl pot and LP pump - but not very well particularly when hot when it was cavitating and hence causing the missfire.

A real b*gger to find as I had assumed that, if the LP pump had failed, it wouldn't be running at all!

The LP pump was a Facet Red Top so it shows that even the best kit isn't infallible.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Cheers, Robin
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Post Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:11 pm

martinclan wrote:
The Low Pressure fuel pump had failed. The HP pump was managing to pull fuel through the swirl pot and LP pump - but not very well particularly when hot when it was cavitating and hence causing the missfire.
This is a well known fault on older E30s that use a two pump set up, and the usual clue is that the high pressure pump runs extremely noisily.
We didn't pick up on it here, since you imply that your donor was a '89 325i, which should have a single in tank pump, and we had no reason to even consider that you may have the earlier system.
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Post Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:45 am

Thanks Brian - that's interesting! The Sportster doesn't use the BMW tank. It has a custom tank with no baffles and no sump. Just a box really. Hence the LP pump, Swirl Pot, HP pump arrangement. Interestingly the HP pump had become slightly noisier - but as the car was still running (most of the time) the penny didn't drop.

Oh well - you live and learn :-)

Robin
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