M50 or M52 turbo setup info

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:18 pm

Hi Guys,

I have now taken my E30 off the road to restore and upgrade at the same time.

I am wanting to put a 2.5 6 pot in, but am unsure weather to use the m50 or m52.

I want to know which engine would be the best for a turbo setup.

What turbo would be best recommended for reliability, nice amount of power.

What else would I need to look into, engine internals etc.

I am wanting to get as much info as possible before I take the steps forward.

Thanks,
Lee

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:19 pm

Sorry also forgot to say drive ability as well, I want to be able to drive around town etc and not worry.

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:28 pm

Also I forgot to say, if it worth going the turbo kit way or sourcing parts individually ?

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:29 pm

M50 for turbo. M52's ali blocks don't like boost.

As far as internals go, you won't need to change anything up to 500hp. Just install a thicker gasket. The older method was to use a MLS, but this has proved unreliable (see Craig's thread in the turbo section). The current popular method is to use a cut ring gasket and copper spacer.

If you want to do it properly, forged rods and low comp pistons will set you back about £1000-1500, again using a cut ring gasket without the spacer.

In terms of turbo, would need to know your power requirements. No point recommending a 500hp turbo if you are aiming for 350hp. Bear in mind, 350hp is a lot in an e30 anyway and what ever you do, you will need to ensure your chassis and brakes are up to it. I am using a Holset hx40 with my build, it's a big bastard and a bit agricultural but they are bomb proof and cheap. Craig used a Borg Warner iirc, can't remember if he is still using it as I think he had an issue. Garrets of various descriptions are always a good bet. What ever you do, don't use Chinese junk.

You will need to consider management. Craig and I went for VEMS. You can buy a plug and play VEMS ecu which runs map based for £720, if you are interested I will send you the chaps email.

You will also need to think about he manifold. There is no off the shelf solution. Craig built his and it's a piece of art. I went for a Blunttech, very good quality but the wastegate pipe will need modding to clear a rhd steering shaft.

Hope that covers a bit, feel free to ask whatever you want and I'll do my best to answer

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:33 pm

In terms of turbo kit, don't bother. Afaik there are no off the shelf ones bar some American companies who make them for e36's that could work with mods but there's no point. All the eBay turbo kits are complete junk and you will replace everything in them anyway

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:47 pm

Thank you for the info, Im going to go m50 im looking at roughly 400-500 bhp.

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:13 pm

What's the car going to be used for?

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:50 pm

LeeUK wrote:Thank you for the info, Im going to go m50 im looking at roughly 400-500 bhp.

Turbo wise you have a lot of options, how much are you looking to spend?

Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:49 pm

Looking at 400-450 bhp, I don't want it to be laggy, I'm thinking a Garrett GT3076R. Next question would be inter cooler etc.

Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:52 pm

So I've decided on an M50, does it matter if its vanos or non vanos ? what difference are their.

I have also decided on an GFB Gforce controller.

I want to get a Megasquirt ECU.

As stated above I am wanting the Garrett GT3076R

Next thing is the inter cooler I don't have a clue where to start with these.

Any suggestions ?

I am trying to cover all areas before I begin ordered bits.

Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:57 pm

Another is the LSD I am looking at Quaife any recommendations ?

Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:28 pm

If the ECU can control VANOS, it makes sense to use it. However if you are after simplicity, NV will be fine. Not sure if MS can handle VANOS control.

Not massively clued up on Megasquirt, but would imagine it has an output for a boost controller like VEMS? I would go for that myself. Personally I would just go for VEMS if that is the price bracket you are in. By the time you have bought an MS system, and a wideband, you are in VEMS territory.

As for I/C, it's not something I have thought about yet. See far too many conversions where a lot of money is spent on the build, then some eBay I/C is chucked in. BTN looks like they provide nice ones at a good price:

http://www.btnperformance.com/intercool ... =pricedesc

Quaife make very good diffs. No experience with them in an e30, but a friend has one in his Clio Williams turbo and it's incredible the grip it provides

Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:03 am

I believe that the Megasquirt will control VANOS, I will do further research into this and also look into VEMS.

I have sourced an inter cooler I am going to purchase.

I like the look of the Quaife in more detail, what other diffs are a good choice when pushing around the 400 mark for power.

Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:48 pm

I have had a look into VEMS, i got to admit when it came to ordered and choosing whats needed I do not have a clue what to select haha

Any suggestions ?

Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:51 pm

Diff wise, there's nothing wrong with a standard or uprated BMW LSD. It is what I have gone for and will probably build it to 40% lock up. The new e30 I pick up this week has a 40% diff so going to see what that is like and go from there.

I bought a pre-made VEMS ECU that should be with me in the next few weeks off a chap called Gunni, who is very knowledgeable. It's plug and play, can control VANOS, map based and has a built in wideband, all for £720:

Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:36 pm

I have messaged Gunni, see what he has to say.

Cheers for your help mate!

Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:11 pm

I have PMed Gunni but still not had a reply for a good month now. Is their any other ways I can contact him ?

Cheers,
Lee

Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:10 pm

Via email, I'll PM you it

Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:14 pm

ross_jsy wrote:M50 for turbo. M52's ali blocks don't like boost.

As far as internals go, you won't need to change anything up to 500hp. Just install a thicker gasket. The older method was to use a MLS, but this has proved unreliable (see Craig's thread in the turbo section). The current popular method is to use a cut ring gasket and copper spacer.

If you want to do it properly, forged rods and low comp pistons will set you back about £1000-1500, again using a cut ring gasket without the spacer.

In terms of turbo, would need to know your power requirements. No point recommending a 500hp turbo if you are aiming for 350hp. Bear in mind, 350hp is a lot in an e30 anyway and what ever you do, you will need to ensure your chassis and brakes are up to it. I am using a Holset hx40 with my build, it's a big bastard and a bit agricultural but they are bomb proof and cheap. Craig used a Borg Warner iirc, can't remember if he is still using it as I think he had an issue. Garrets of various descriptions are always a good bet. What ever you do, don't use Chinese junk.

You will need to consider management. Craig and I went for VEMS. You can buy a plug and play VEMS ecu which runs map based for £720, if you are interested I will send you the chaps email.

You will also need to think about he manifold. There is no off the shelf solution. Craig built his and it's a piece of art. I went for a Blunttech, very good quality but the wastegate pipe will need modding to clear a rhd steering shaft.

Hope that covers a bit, feel free to ask whatever you want and I'll do my best to answer

Why is m52 no good for boost ?

Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:09 pm

How much boost is safe on an m52?
I was wondering as if it was low enough would 300bhp be possible?
Obviously still a fair amount for an e30 and saves going sr20det

Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:20 am

johnmaccow wrote:How much boost is safe on an m52?
I was wondering as if it was low enough would 300bhp be possible?
Obviously still a fair amount for an e30 and saves going sr20det

The only down side of the m52 is the head studs , I am going for 600hp on my m52 so don't worry about it

Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:32 am

ross_jsy wrote:If the ECU can control VANOS, it makes sense to use it. However if you are after simplicity, NV will be fine. Not sure if MS can handle VANOS control.

Not massively clued up on Megasquirt, but would imagine it has an output for a boost controller like VEMS? I would go for that myself. Personally I would just go for VEMS if that is the price bracket you are in. By the time you have bought an MS system, and a wideband, you are in VEMS territory.

As for I/C, it's not something I have thought about yet. See far too many conversions where a lot of money is spent on the build, then some eBay I/C is chucked in. BTN looks like they provide nice ones at a good price:

http://www.btnperformance.com/intercool ... =pricedesc

Quaife make very good diffs. No experience with them in an e30, but a friend has one in his Clio Williams turbo and it's incredible the grip it provides

Sorry pal but stop sending people on bum steers !
You are telling people to buy VEMS that is based on mega squirt its ok but not the best and there is better stand alone for the money ,you say ebay intercoolers are crap I know from experience that they are as good as most on the market .
Then you say m52 is no good for boost ? How does every one else in the world with an alloy block m52 or m54 for that matter turbo one ? Do they all throw there block away and buy an m50 block ?

Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:23 pm

I know nothing about turbo's but what I do know is just by changing a head gasket on a M52 you can pull the threads out of the block so wouldn't have thought it would like 500/600 bhp either.
Modern trends is leaning towards using a iron M50 block for a lot of bigger bhp engine builds.
Just my peneth!

Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:27 pm

bimanut wrote:I know nothing about turbo's but what I do know is just by changing a head gasket on a M52 you can pull the threads out of the block so wouldn't have thought it would like 500/600 bhp either.
Modern trends is leaning towards using a iron M50 block for a lot of bigger bhp engine builds.
Just my peneth!

Threads only really pull when engine has been overheated hence head gasket failure it makes the aluminium soft and they pull threads .
I will be drilling the block out and will have a steel insert made like a time sert only longer and maybe go up a thread size with my head studs its as easy as that

Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:50 pm

Kieron, I don't know what "sending someone on a bum steers" means, but I am not exactly giving out misleading information which is what I assume you mean?

RE VEMs, yes, there is better standalone out there for the money, however, for £720 plug and play with a base map installed, you will struggle to find something similar. A good option for many who do not want to go down the route of wiring in something. Find out in this thread where I said it was the best? Or anywhere for that matter? Heck, my mate has a Cosworth ECU for sale for £15k if you want the best, only used for 1 IOM TT.

Secondly, he asked what is better, an m50 or an m52. The answer is, and always will be, an m50. No they don't all throw their blocks away, they buy the correct one in the first place.

In case people are reading US build threads and wondering why they all have no problems using m52's, the answer is simple; the US got steel blocked m52's. m52's can and do pull threads with a simple head swap. One solution is, as you say, to use timecerts. However why bother. For the sake of a few kilo's, use the far stronger steel block and be done.

Mmm yes, eBay intercoolers are as good as most on the market. I'll let my mate know he just wasted a grand on his Garret cored jobby for his Evo and tell him to stick an eBay special in there instead...

Enjoy steering bums mate

Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:22 am

ross_jsy wrote:Kieron, I don't know what "sending someone on a bum steers" means, but I am not exactly giving out misleading information which is what I assume you mean?

RE VEMs, yes, there is better standalone out there for the money, however, for £720 plug and play with a base map installed, you will struggle to find something similar. A good option for many who do not want to go down the route of wiring in something. Find out in this thread where I said it was the best? Or anywhere for that matter? Heck, my mate has a Cosworth ECU for sale for £15k if you want the best, only used for 1 IOM TT.

Secondly, he asked what is better, an m50 or an m52. The answer is, and always will be, an m50. No they don't all throw their blocks away, they buy the correct one in the first place.

In case people are reading US build threads and wondering why they all have no problems using m52's, the answer is simple; the US got steel blocked m52's. m52's can and do pull threads with a simple head swap. One solution is, as you say, to use timecerts. However why bother. For the sake of a few kilo's, use the far stronger steel block and be done.

Mmm yes, eBay intercoolers are as good as most on the market. I'll let my mate know he just wasted a grand on his Garret cored jobby for his Evo and tell him to stick an eBay special in there instead...

Enjoy steering bums mate

Anybody who wants to buy a good standanone would go and buy Motec ,Syvecs,link,ect ect and they dont cost 15k !
Your saying you would not buy mega squirt yet you have bought it already in a different case for more money but its MS just the same .
As for the intercooler i personally know people running 1000bhp on ebay intercoolers at 40psi+ where charge temps are high but you know better sorry .

As for my M52 my be i should scrap it now because you say they are no good for boost ?

Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:19 pm

m54b30 801whp/881wnm World record!!!
On Germanboost with the aluminium block and 517whp on stock motor you need to get in touch and tell him what he's done wrong !
He might be in the market for a 15k cosworth ecu and a garret intercooler for a grand !
By the way a 900hp garret cooler is just over £500 from atp plus shipping .

Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:05 pm

Christ we have a mong on our hands chaps.

I went for VEMS because it was plug and play, with included wideband. I have no problem with megasquirt, it is a good system. However spec up an MS unit to have the same features (COP, sequential injectors etc) and add on the wideband and you will be paying the same, if not more than £720, and still have to build it/wire it in. Not that hard to understand now is it.

Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:09 pm

Mmm yes a core is, then throw in some custom machined end tanks to go with his sidewinder turbo kit and fab and it's well over a grand. Sure something from the ripseed catalogue would do just the same though

You seem to be unable to grasp the concept of what is best. Im not arguing that you can run big boost through an ali block, however OP asked which is better, so I told him

Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:17 pm

Also am I meant to be impressed by 800hp from a 3 litre out of curiosity? Go have a Google for Slight Overbuilt or Mike Radowski's builds. 2.8's with 1500-2000hp. Care to guess what blocks they used?

Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:26 pm

You said they are no good for boost like you said you would not buy mega squirt I simply proved you wrong !
Never at any point did I say the aluminium block was better and maximum psi bmw is only just over a thousand hp isn't it ?
I don't dispute any of the facts you added later on only what you said in the first place that you wouldn't buy mega squirt when you have one and m52 are no good for boost which I have proven they are and then the intercoolers I know people running a thousand hp on one but the tanks have been changed .

All im saying is don't steer people away from buying things that work fine for a fraction of the cost of garret ect ect because you wouldn't buy them !
If your not a 100% sure don't comment its that simple !

Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:55 pm

I did not say they are no good for boost, I said they don't like boost. Comparatively to a steel blocked m50, they don't. That's not open for debate, it is simply fact. If you have the choice, you would choose an m50 over an m52 every time. Why bother going to the hassle of sticking timecerts in a weaker block, when you can use a better stronger one, the only difference being a few kilo's.

I did not say I would not buy Megasquirt, and I am aware that VEMS evolved from a MS product, I stated I would choose VEMS over it for reasons such as price point, and ease of use (PNP is helpful to a lot of people). In fact, if you read what I wrote without jumping to conclusions as you seem prone to, I clearly state I would choose MS over the GFB G Force controller that OP said they were also looking at.

Now here is where you seem to fail at basic comprehension, so I shall quote it for you to make it easier to understand:

ross_jsy wrote:Personally I would just go for VEMS if that is the price bracket you are in. By the time you have bought an MS system, and a wideband, you are in VEMS territory.

Personally, as in it is my opinion that VEMS is better value for money in this price bracket. I made a recommendation, and clearly outlined my reasons why.

Keiron wrote:All im saying is don't steer people away from buying things that work fine for a fraction of the cost of garret ect ect because you wouldn't buy them !
If your not a 100% sure don't comment its that simple !

As for being 100% sure, I am 100% sure a quality intercooler will be a better choice than an eBay special. Feel free to argue this till you are blue in the cheeks, you are simply wrong.

Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:24 pm

And because facts are nothing without figures, enjoy:

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-en ... truth.html

Nothing like some sweet knock inducing high IAT's from a shitty eBay IC to blow a turbo engine

But f00k it, might as well cheap out on a critical part after spending thousands turboing in the first place

Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:31 pm

ross_jsy wrote:And because facts are nothing without figures, enjoy:

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-en ... truth.html

Nothing like some sweet knock inducing high IAT's from a shitty eBay IC to blow a turbo engine

But f00k it, might as well cheap out on a critical part after spending thousands turboing in the first place

I see cars being tuned at least twice a week with IAT's being logged when possible I can reel off a hand full of names of people that I know personally all running 700hp+ on 1.8-2.0 engines all running ebay coolers with no intake temp problems is this a fluke ?
And mines not a sales pitch for my intercoolers !
I have heard of people who had been sponsored by forge and had a fancy cooler made and did less power with higher IATs than there ebay cooler ,my friend maps a good few cars in the FWD drag series I am not talking shit about ebay coolers the right one works very well !

Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:15 am

Still though would rather spend some decent money on a vital component, cant trust the eBay ones from what I've heard. I hear a lot of negative things about them, and the people who say this are people I feel I trust.

I don't think you was reading any of Rossy_jsy comments as he did justify his reasons.