This true story will make you weep... E30 M3 3.2 Conversion

[Al_Walker]

Mfree,

I have just spend most of the morning reading this thread.
I've only really got one comment. If I had been in your position with financial circumstances and were prepared to spend a lot of money with firms, I'd have considered using a lawyer to draw up contracts to ensure that the supplier/company you were asking to do the effort came in to time, performance and cost, and had severe penalty clauses if it failed to do so.

In the event that the company you are dealing with goes bankrupt, you could have written into the contract (to mitigate the risk) that stage payments were made based upon baseline milestone targets (for example hearing the engine run, dyno test, etc).

By the way...the one photograph of the car that I saw the car did look great, has a lot of potential, and i hope that it becomes an important car 'on the scene'.

[MFree]

Al - hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it? *NOT*!!

Totally useless in practice though! One thing i was going to insist on with John when we were to set up working again is a fully legally researched and watertight set of agreements covering payments, contracts etc but in my case i was just TOO trusting in all cases, if I had been on the Zone back when GTS were using my money and my car to train a YTS stickleback to learn how to be a mechanic and I had written here that they were telling me it would take a month to bypass the EWS system and how complex it was and that they needed a BMW engineer to come down etc etc which was what Tom at GTS told me back then (Oh please I hope you read this Tom then try and deny it!!!) none of you lot would have had that would you? You would have ALL said "they are bullshitting you and ripping you off mate!" - i was too busy with my other business and basically didnt know enough to gainsay what they were telling me and as for Stratos, well, i knew nothing until it was too late... not much i COULD have done there though i am still annoyed that many people including Nigel Mosely told me it was ok to go to them even though i suspect he and others knew exactly what Foster and now Geoff Steel were doing with regard to all those 'cheap as chips' parts that kept ending up in their posession!!!

Anyway, as i said, hindsight is not a great thing as it doesnt serve any purpose but to allow us to learn, even if as in my case its the hard way. I found Zoom through the ZOne too remember but in that case too it was just bad timing, had he had my car 2 months prior to when he got it then it would have been finished and out of there before John had his accident after which everything started to go south on him...

Sometimes you just have to ride out those nasty waves geeza...

I see a gorgeous still patch of clear blue water on the horizon, not too far from me now, THAT'S what counts, as the past can't un-be, we live in the here and now and to a certain extent in the future through our plans, hopes and dreams and not wanting to sound all naive AGAIN like ive learned nothing from all of this, I have good reason i think to continue my positive outlook on the project, because if I was so wrapped up in the negative stuff which has now passed and cant be changed, it would just take years off my life... My car will be finished well and soon too...

(if not Kos is gonna be singing like Aled Jones aged 10 for the rest of his days... LOL - only pulling your lego mate!!)

MFree...

[MFree]

I dont think my budget will stretch to a roll cage now ive gotten the quote back from Racing Developments!!`Ԛ£940 and Ԛ£1400 for a 6/10 point weld in cage inc VAT but they dont mention fitting so as this part is always an unknown variable therefore fitting must bea bomb on top of that right?

Is that alot of money??? that would mean well over Ԛ£2000 then right all infor the 10 point cage inc fitting?

Thats way out of my budget!

anyone know anyone who is not such a rip off?

cheers

MFree

[Kos]

thats stupid money!!

look at the suppliers for deemon tweeks, and contact them directly

a multi ponint cage, FIA approved is about 750 i think from custom cages, its weld in, has cross bars, front triangulation, goes to the struts diagonalsn and harness tubes,
500 max to fit it (cant take more than ten hours can it?!?)
a bit OTT in terms of keeping it as practical(ish) road car

julian smith is the man to talk to, ask phil about him maybe??

[MFree]

I agree mate but given the inside is out right now, this i s the time to address it if its gonna happen, i dont WANt to spend that money at all but its just a question of chassis flex etc and the solid suspension mountings coupled with the stiff springs etc. I suppose i could change those two things instead, soften it up and revert back to bushes not rose joints which will allow alot of the chassis flex to become taken up by the rubber bushes again and the softer springs which will reintroduce body roll....

I was just assuming i would keep the suspension the way it is..

Im not sure now. I guess to sort it later with my minimalistic interior and not addressing it now would just mean working around the carpet yes?

MFree

[M3Compact]

500 max to fit it (cant take more than ten hours can it?!?)

Ten hours is a good effort to fit a proper weld-in cage in a totally stripped shell.

Re-fitting the dash/trim around the cage can take hours and hours to do a neat job for a road car.

[Kos]

i think you will be ok on the car considering the limited mlage you will be doing, baybe just re-enforce the rear top mounts?? and just get an off the shelf bolt in cage??

[MFree]

Kos - I might have to do that. Its just a shame because with the interior out now this is the time to do it if at all...

I do want to use the car for hard pushing trackday use and given that (not that im blowing my own trumpet or nowt) Im quite handy behind the wheel given my competition background in single seaters and saloons I dont see the car getting an easy time of it...

I dont know... I had discussed a cage option with John that didnt involve interfering with the dash but we never discussed cost. AS for a bog standard bolt in cage, that will enable support for the rear turrets, true, but it wont do owt for the chassis flex really... for that it has to be a weld in jobbie...

I guess I could live with a bolt in cage which will be Ԛ£200 and 3-4 hours fitting for now plus front and rear strut braces... that will help SOME withthe flexing...

I wish i had more budget available but I don't!

We will see what Phil says next week...

Cheers

MFree

[M3Compact]

I guess I could live with a bolt in cage which will be Ԛ£200 and 3-4 hours fitting

There's no point fitting a bolt-in rollcage unless you strengthen all the shell mounting points. If you don't, it'll simply push the legs through the floor should you land upside down.

A properly fitted bolt-in cage should stiffen the shell considerably.

There are some cages available that come down behind the dash, not as good as a fully welded in multi-point turret bracing job, but well worth having imo, and much easier to fit while the interior's out.

You've waited long enough already , but why 'spoil the ship for a ha'peth of tar'?

[Kos]

[quote="M3Compact"]
There's no point fitting a bolt-in rollcage unless you strengthen all the shell mounting points. If you don't, it'll simply push the legs through the floor should you land upside down.
quote]

if your floors are rusty, very unlikely

i dont see a a cage doing that, they would never get FIA approval and no one woulf use a bolt in cage if safety was compromsed

[bellgtti]

mfree it took me nearly an hour and a half yeterday to read the whole thing. fair play for the struggling on attitude that youve took

get it done i wanna see it now

[M3Compact]

i dont see a a cage doing that, they would never get FIA approval and no one woulf use a bolt in cage if safety was compromsed

I've seen them do it, and drop the roof.

Check the MSA reg's, the point that the cage mounts to needs to be strong enough, scrutineers check this. Some bolt-in cages have a larger 'pad' to spread the load.

Waste of time bolting a cage in without at least strengthening the floor mounting points, it's only flimsy metal on the floor that easily flexes too.

Bolt in cages are fine imo, but if they aren't fitted properly to strengthened mounting points, there's no point bothering.

BTT Mfree, followed this epic from the start, hope it all comes together soon.

[Kos]

i dont see a a cage doing that, they would never get FIA approval and no one woulf use a bolt in cage if safety was compromsed

Waste of time bolting a cage in without at least strengthening the floor mounting points, it's only flimsy metal on the floor that easily flexes too.

Bolt in cages are fine imo, but if they aren't fitted properly to strengthened mounting points, there's no point bothering
quote]

safety devises supply streghtening "bsae" plates for the cage, as do most reputable cage manufactures

[M3Compact]

safety devises supply streghtening "bsae" plates for the cage, as do most reputable cage manufactures

Yep, weld them in. (With extras. )

Not knocking bolt-in cages, providing it's fitted properly it'll stiffen it up nicely imo.

[iil325i]

what do you need off the E durty6 M3 evo if you want to put it in the E30 M3

[MFree]

iil325i - do you mean what is required to do the same conversion as i have got??

If so - this is not the place to go into that in detail - but are you planning to do the work yourself??? The answer briefly is the engine/box/prop and engine loom/ecu - the loom needs modifying, the EWS system needs bypassing and the engine sits on different engine mounts and as well as that, the original manifolds dont fit so custom ones need to be used and custom exhaust system too although i have seen someone using the original airbox though i dont know how they did it and retained the brake servo...

THeres a guy in Germany that does the whole conversion in 2 days so i have been told by numerous people, but ive not seen any of his cars so i cant verify that.

From my ludicrously crazy experiences with my car i would say in all honesty that the business is in general so full of crooks and people that want to believe they are capable of things that they are not that its best to do things yourself if you possibly can and outsource the individual jobs that you cant do yourself... If i had done that I would have saved enough to buy a whole other mint Sport Evo E30 M3 and would have had the car on the road about 4 years ago!!!

My recommendation in all honesty is dont bother! Do what Karim did and supercharge or turbocharge the S14 engine instead, its lighter and sounds great (the supercharged version) and the S14 motor was good for 600bhp in its old 1980's F2 spec so you have alot of scope for increasing the output almost without limit!!!

Im probably opening a huge can of worms here by saying that but if i had the choice again or could go back in time, thats what id do!!!

MFree

[MFree]

Well I have news about what the 100% FINAL CHAPTER of my cars build is gonna cost me... but i just cant bring myself to write it in.

I just cant believe it really...

Having said that, the guys doing the car are the most professional and sensible people ive met so far so I dont doubt they are right, if a little pessemistic on the time estimate... but they always plan for 50% slippage just in case, usually in the business (I used to do it with my kind of work but i just cant get away with the quotes if i do anymore!!!) this means it will be used for sure, but you never know, as it doesnt include lots of the bits the car still needs like exhaust system, air flow meter, windscreen, bulkhead soundinsulation, lots of plastic bits etc its gonna be about Ԛ£4k as they want Ԛ£3k for quite alot of time on the car in labour..

I have to go with them, i dont have the spirit for the fight anymore and they did come across very well, they know what they are doing and they express themselves very well... oh and working in the main Birds workshop, its so clean and roomy and well setup (could do with 2 more ramps) that the car wont get any more damaged there. Phils right hand man has a lush E30 M3 Evo II with a supercharged s14 and lightweight wherever possible.. its gorgeous, total opposite to my approach, but equally intersting...

Would be good to do a comparison feature of the two different ways of tuning an M3 for +300bhp performance...

So whoever falls in love with my M3 first is gonna get one hell of a bargain, about 40% of what i spent for a superb car... as i cannot afford this. If it was gonna be Ԛ£1500 or so

More news when i have it. i will take some pictures when i go back. Its gonna be 6 weeks till its done or thereabouts, so anyone intersted can come and look at it after that date.

Later

MFree

[stevetigger]

So what you saying???? Im getting worried!

[MFree]

Its simple really mate - as with my record its gonna cost me a minimum with Adrian Flux (the cheapest) of Ԛ£3000 per year to insure and that after thinking it was all paid up with Zoom to finish to be hit with a a further Ԛ£4000 cost on top of what ive already spent, I just cant afford to do this and keep it! Im borrowing the money to finish it from my family and unless i can find that myself plus another probably Ԛ£1200-1500 for the initial insurance payment, for 6 weeks time, then I have no choice but to recoup it out of the sale...

believe me, if you'd been through what i have with this project, you couldnt be more sad about that prospect than I am! If I can sell my lovely E34 B10 for something sensible (which i cant understand why I cant - I mean Ԛ£1800 for a mint B10 is peanuts)... but it doesnt look likely.

The only glimmer of hope as i dont do the lottery is that two contracts Ive pitched for recently, if just one of them comes off I should be able to do it, so Im really praying one or both do!!! The other thing and you can understand why they would think this, is that those close to me (my sis, mum etc) think the car is for me, jinxed, as I have had so much bad luck with it - i personally think we make our own luck and it was more all down to bad choices by me - everyone i chose to do the car was recommended by people i respected but I could have looked into them all much more thoroughly, the current guys too I should have done more but as I said am so weary now and its not like they are in some farm shed somewhere! Kos's guys ARE sound, I was convinced when i saw them, its just alot of dough, however another way to view it is I could spend only 7 days of labour with someone cheaper and the car won't be finished well and it will be a big let down right? At least its gonna be completed PROPERLY!

An added bonus is that Phils assistant suggested a feature on his and my car, comparing the two opposite approaches to converting the M3, im sure the mags would be queing up to do that as they always need new cars to feature right? That will raise its profile and mean if i do have to sell it, i can get a decent price. Given what nice stock M3's fetch still im positive its worth Ԛ£12k - half what its cost to build. Discounting the shell, the parts are worth Ԛ£8000!!!

Anyway... we'll see. Seeing it yesterday did make me feel sad i must say, the reality hit of just how much work is left to do on the car. It will be stunning when finished though...Let's hope my luck with this car changes soon and my finances allow it to stay with its proper owner!!!

MFree...

[stevetigger]

If I can sell my lovely E34 B10 for something sensible (which i cant understand why I cant - I mean Ԛ£1800 for a mint B10 is peanuts)

So you are selling a B10 for Ԛ£1800??

[MFree]

yes - look at bmwcarshowroom site - its on there in the 5 series section.

I tell you though, ive never seen so many E30 M3's in one place than when i saw my car! Kos's, mine and 3 others - it was heavan!!!

Phil was so enthusiastic about my car despite what needs to be done, and it will just be SO satisfying to make it to the meets and shows this year that Im gonna do everything i can to try and hold onto it!

You can only have SO much bad luck right?



MFree...

[stevetigger]

You can only have SO much bad luck right?

I think you have had bad luck but then when it is built, I think it will all come good!

[MFree]

Well i dont know whether you would class this as good luck or not (its weird I seem to have gotten used to seeing what most people would class as a f***ing obligation, like getting something you have paid for or being paid back when you have done someone a huge favour in lending them money as something lucky or fortunate!!!) but apparantly although a truncated conversation through my credit ending didnt tell me much, John tells me that the painter who was paid in cash in full by me for the paintjob on the car does actually have all the panels missing from the car, the bonnet, bootlid, skirts, rear wing base, front Evo II spoiler, and they are ready...

Anyway he hasnt responded to my texts which worries me a bit but im gonna go up there with a van next week and get them... boy they want to be there!!! It would be a shame if not because the quality of the paintwork (other than a few blemishes on certain inner panel lips which are not important) is superb - its a shame i didnt take a before and after shot as what Jason did with the paintwork is quite stunning! I would recommend him to anyone i really would...

Having had a few days for the cost to come to sink in im resigned to it, having totted everything up i rekon it comes to this:

Original car: Ԛ£6000.00
Engine and box: Ԛ£2500.00
GTS Conversion: Ԛ£8000.00
Ground Control suspension: Ԛ£2200.00
Paintwork: Ԛ£2000.00
Wheels: Ԛ£1000.00
Bodykit: Ԛ£800.00
Seats: Ԛ£550.00
Zoom costs (intake/manifolds, exhuast system (never delivered): Ԛ£1500
Zoom additionals owing Ԛ£1200.00
Current CPC work/parts to finish: Ԛ£4000.00
Tyres: Ԛ£220.00
Steering wheel: Ԛ£80.00

Total: Ԛ£30,050

I rekon Ԛ£10,000 of that could and should have been avoided, thats the cost of a second MINT M3... so it COULD have been Ԛ£20k if done honestly without hiccup...

And i might recoup Ԛ£what if I sell her? NOT ENOUGH!!!

Mind you Bootyman has thrown that plus another Ԛ£20k at his i think so I should count myself lucky I guess...

I dont know why i keep thinking it was a good Ԛ£10k less than that in total, probably to stop me having a stroke...

Anyway thats the long and the short of it. Ive probably missed a few things as well...

I will post some photos next friday when ive taken the panels up to CPC.

MFree...

[Kos]

up late adding up the numbers like me eh?!?!

[buster]

hello,ive read all of your thread and dont take this the wrong way but id have started smashing skulls long before this !! get tough man,don't let them walk all over you !

[MFree]

Buster - I know what you mean and i DO feel the same way about it, the problem is that Im a nice guy despite being tall and looking quite scary and i think people exploit my generous and trusting character to be honest... Im lucky though as my best mate is the most loyal geezer in the world and not to put too fine a point on it, a f-ing ANIMAL when he needs to be and has witnessed all ive gone through with this project of late - and he can't wait to take the kind of action you are talking about (i've kept having to restrain him!), he wont tell me when as he knows Id say no, so he'll just do it by himself!! He's well connected too and knows a pukka private eye so can get anyone he wants found!

Im waiting to see what happens and focusing on sorting the money somehow to finish the car, then if Im still in the same situation in a week then he will do his thing i suppose.

On the up side, looks like Pete Walsh has got a pukka carpet for me for Ԛ£75.00 (apparantly thats a fiver more than the car cost but hey, thats just good trading on his account!)

Right... back to work tomorrow. Im off for 40 winks.

///MFree

[bootyman]

Boy i've stopped posting on this thread cause it's hard to find the words to say. I got shafted with some of the things on my car, but we still managed to build the car and be ready for a feature in about 6 months, so at least i got some glory for my rimming. This has more twists than Eastenders. Just when you think things are going well, there's another dramatic twist I'm a nice guy too but i had to take action like buster was saying to get things done. The original gut that painted the car done such a bad job that almost every panel was a dufferent shade and as usual, everyone was blaming one another. I gave the boss a date i'd be round to collect my money and told him exactly what i'd do to him in front of his wife and kids if i didn't get it. I had the usual emotional blackmail from his wife and stuff, but i was not having any of it. The date came and i got a van loads of my doorman mates and we went round to his house. I sat in his sitting room with a basball bat and a machettee and he counted Ԛ£3.5k in cash for me, then offered me a cup of tea Yes i felt bad cause they were all genuinly terrified, but to me "THERE ARE NO VICTIMS IN LIFE" People treat you the way you allow yourself to be treated

[buster]

Boy i've stopped posting on this thread cause it's hard to find the words to say. I got shafted with some of the things on my car, but we still managed to build the car and be ready for a feature in about 6 months, so at least i got some glory for my rimming. This has more twists than Eastenders. Just when you think things are going well, there's another dramatic twist I'm a nice guy too but i had to take action like buster was saying to get things done. The original gut that painted the car done such a bad job that almost every panel was a dufferent shade and as usual, everyone was blaming one another. I gave the boss a date i'd be round to collect my money and told him exactly what i'd do to him in front of his wife and kids if i didn't get it. I had the usual emotional blackmail from his wife and stuff, but i was not having any of it. The date came and i got a van loads of my doorman mates and we went round to his house. I sat in his sitting room with a basball bat and a machettee and he counted Ԛ£3.5k in cash for me, then offered me a cup of tea Yes i felt bad cause they were all genuinly terrified, but to me "THERE ARE NO VICTIMS IN LIFE" People treat you the way you allow yourself to be treated

good call ben,damn right.I believe in karma,im nice and i believe in good manners,they dont cost anything.Sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do.

MFree,i do hope you can get this car on the road and enjoy it,its been a long time coming.

[maxfield]

Baseball bat nice touch. machette to far

[Kos]

Baseball bat nice touch. machette to far

action was needed, Ԛ£3500 is a lot of money, besides its the principal of it. let the c@^t get away with it once they'll keep on doing it!!

[MFree]

Its rare that anything happens with this project, but i have news!

All the parts of the car i have are finally reunited!

When John collected the car from the bodyshop 6 months ago, many parts were not painted then, bonnet, bootlid, rear wing base, skirts, Evo II chin spoiler - so i went to finally get them today... they were all inthe corner on the floor covered with dust and boxes, not wrapped up AT ALL... doesnt matter tho as while the car was finished to the standard of polished glass from what was originally like a rippled pond surface, coz the painter did the other bits AFTER he had been paid (hence no incentive anymore) they look like they were done by a blind gorilla with the DT's...

The leading edge of the wing base is DRY and speckled i.e the paint gun barely touched it, and it was not even flatted down, the bootlid was cracked and scratched to death and not even properly edged and to cap it all, the bonnet wasnt done at all! He said John had told him that i was having a carbon bonnet which is nonsense as ive been talking to john about the parts including the bonnet recently and he never mentioned it at all!

The bonnet on the car was a piece of shit it must be said, Russ supplied it when he put the car back toghether (replicating all of the appalling build errors GTS initiated) with so many other poor parts... so as the skirts and chin spoiler is all low down stuff it will be ok, but i am having to have the bonnet, boot and wing base done again... as they willl let the car down SO badly if left as they are! But at last everything is together now! Its justa shame when the painter primed and flattened the main car paintwork down twice to get the superb finish and yet botched the other bits like a blind monkey with the DT's!!!

I was also told the floor had been welded properly where it had rusted through - LIE!!! Another one!! there is a big hole in it! But anyway despite all these things, Im overall glad i at least HAVE the parts back now and I can leave the whole thing to Phil to finish! The next time I see it well, it should be done or very close to being done!

I was too knackered to remember mycamera but theres nothing to see now anyway...

More soon

MFree

[Kos]

i just got a price on a van mate!!! oh well, shit happens. sorry for never calling you back the other day, its just been so hecktic and too many things going on!!!
sorry to hear about the parts being fucked!

[Dan318-is]

I think you need to give your body parts to dips!

[Kos]

I think you need to give your body parts to dips!

thats my line!!!! but yea i can recomend him, well i wont recomend ant one else!!

[MFree]

I thought as this was a separate issue it should be a separate posting. When i was talking with Phil today we were discussing the likelihood of Zooms manifold producing the performance John claimed it always did - he was saying that in his experience when he installed a Hamman carbon one he found that power was DOWN with this and he thought the same would be true of the zoom one too compared to the original item. He said any manifold had to have proper trumpets in it to work... we will see i guess!

Also, we were discussing blue-sky dreams for what could be done with the motor once the car is finished if i happened to win the lotterty and Phil told me of a stroker kit he's gonna be providing here for the E56 M3 3,2 motor which takes it out to 3.4 litres and with the right cams and head work is good for 400BHP!!! He was saying he thinks it could work for the S50 engine too - that would make the motor competitive with the E39 M5 V8!!

I would DEARLY love to do that conversion!!!

Something to dream about anyway!!

Later

MFree