So the 320is is better than the m3

[Demlotcrew]

its not an engine that is ideal for a daily driver, this is not surprising given the design intentions, nor is this characteristic particularly relevant to e30m3 owners as they dont purchase the car with DD as the primary focus. whereas the m52 is the opposite a good DD but not so good on the track

hp/L is pretty irrelevant

That's complete rubbish, I DD mines for 7 years and It was a golden time, the s14 is better on fuel, lighter and is coupled to a wonderful gearbox and let's not forget the noise a‘a

[reggid]

its not an engine that is ideal for a daily driver, this is not surprising given the design intentions, nor is this characteristic particularly relevant to e30m3 owners as they dont purchase the car with DD as the primary focus. whereas the m52 is the opposite a good DD but not so good on the track

hp/L is pretty irrelevant

That's complete rubbish, I DD mines for 7 years and It was a golden time, the s14 is better on fuel, lighter and is coupled to a wonderful gearbox and let's not forget the noise a‘a

each to their own but i hate driving an that lacks torque in traffic

[Demlotcrew]

S14 has plenty of torque, without sounding harsh, have you ever owned one?

[reggid]

S14 has plenty of torque, without sounding harsh, have you ever owned one?

you must not have driven many cars if you think it has torque at the bottom end

ive not owned one, but have driven more than one and been in others albeit years ago

[Demlotcrew]

I've driven a few a™Š

The S14 has plenty of torque, even in traffic, more per cc than the M52 a˜a

[zinnoe30m3]

you must not have driven many cars if you think it has torque at the bottom end

ive not owned one, but have driven more than one and been in others albeit years ago

In normal day to day safe legal driving the s14 is more than adequate, Im guessing you drive everywhere at balls out speeds? even down to the shops??

[reggid]

I've driven a few a™Š

The S14 has plenty of torque, even in traffic, more per cc than the M52 a˜a

it has alot less torque in absolute terms which is actually what matters, compare them at 2500rpm. nothing like being in a high gear and not having to worry about changing down a cog or two to move briskly. in many situations perosnally i find this handy

[Demlotcrew]

Do you have any data to support your claims?

I remember going to a RR day with theo in his m30 stripped out E30. With a full interior, a heavy passenger and 10hp less I was able to pull on theo in any gear any speed and we all know how much torque the boat anchor hasa‘a

[reggid]

The M52 makes 206 ft-lb at 4000 rpm and the S14 177 ft-lb at 4750rpm, the difference is even more pronounced at 2500 rpm given the dynos around (BMW figures other than peak values are hard to find).

when you are racing you can just gear the car differently such that best area under hp curve in the operating rpm band wins, but this doesn't necessarily translate to great cruiser, each to their own though

[Fushion_Julz]

they all got 2 cylinders missing

The Achilles heel of the M3,
I hate the spastic s14 why didn't they fit the M88 for the sake of the small weight difference ?

It was all to do with where the engine sits in the bay...the longer M88 block would have altered the weight distribution with too much weight ahead of the front axle.

Also it would have put the car in a different class to the Mercedes 190 which is what BMW were aiming at both on the track and in the showrooms.

The M88 was already old in 1986 having been in the E24 (which the E30 replaced on the track). The S38 would have been the 6 cylinder equivalent, but that was developed later for the E34.

The S14 was exactly the right engine for the job...remember the homologation only called for 5000 examples to be built. The intention was to build the required number only and use the success of the M3 on the track to sell the 325 and 320 models...much as Mercedes were doing with the 190 (the 2.3 and 2.5 16 valve motors were both 4 cylinder and the top of the range 190 was the 2.6 6-pot).
The Motorsport division did a superb job on this engine...they used an existing block (M10) which was also being used in the F1 engines for Brabham. It needed almost no modification to make into the S14 thereby saving on tooling and development costs.
It was more powerful than the Mercedes motors and the M3 was cheaper on the road than the Mercedes 190 2.3-16. The BMW also beat the Merc on the track.

The success of the M3 meant that 17,000 or so were made (and sold), even though it was significantly more expensive than a better equipped 325i.

You may not like the S14, but it is one of the great engines in touring car history.

[maxfield]

Reggid, have you actually used an E30 M3 as a daily? Your only reading the figures off the internet. To me power figures etc are all pub talk. It's all about the car drives. And an E30 M3 doesn't make a bad daily whatsoever.

[87mtech27]

S14 is a great racing engine but as a daily it was hard to live with from what I've read in articles /magazines/ showroom salesmen. Many would trade the M3s back in for high spec 325i's, 635csi's and M535i's.

It was this gap in the market that the likes of Alpina, hartge etc decided to stick the anchor from normal B6 3.5 into the M3 chassis. This was a win win for customers who wanted the M3 as a daily.

[bss325i]

All this nonsence about the S14 not suitable as a daily is laughable.

How many 16v 4 cylinder engines are fitted to normal hum drum cars like?

The S14 is a perfectly tractable engine. The main reason why people in the UK chopped them in for other bmw's back in the day was more to do with the LHD.

[Fushion_Julz]

Have you used/driven one? The S14 is perfectly useable as an everyday engine....over 17,000 people agreed and bought one from the showroom.

I've used mine as a daily for a while and the only thing that I would say is the high cost of service items means you need deep pockets to rack up high mileages...

The lack of torque takes a bit of getting used to...especially if you're used to modern diesels...but you just adjust your style of driving to suit the car...

Alpina only made 62 B6S cars...Hartge only made 40 (IIRC) H35 cars and only 5 or 6 H35-24 (with the S38 M5 motor) so you can hardly say they were the answer for the majority of M3 customers.

Personally, I like the S14 it revs amazingly freely and produces enough power for road use and even in standard form is a real delight on the track. It withstands a huge amount of abuse and is not in any way tempremental...always starts first time and is reliable as you'd expect of a quality, hand-assembled engine.

Coupled to the fact that an original E30 M3 with the standard S14 is appreciating in value beyond most cars I can think of make it worthwhile keeping the original engine...
You can get (reliably) 270bhp or so (cost no issues, of course) and still drive it on the road and the racing engines can make 320+bhp

[Low_E30]

All this nonsence about the S14 not suitable as a daily is laughable.

How many 16v 4 cylinder engines are fitted to normal hum drum cars like?

Different car but similar enough...

I used my '89 Merc 190E 2.5-16 with getrag dogleg as a daily from 2009 to 2013.... And what a sterling job it did...

The torque in traffic, power and general engine characteristics were the absolute least of my problems.... Keeping the bodywork in fine fettle was the more pressing concern like every old car.

Every journey seemed like an event.... You wont regret it for a minute!

[e30topless]

Some seem to forget these were sold by BMW as road going production cars, no different to walking in the stealers now and ordering an M3, they really aren't as fragile as some believe !

(well some are in the rear arches )

[Demlotcrew]

The S14 was exactly the right engine for the job...remember the homologation only called for 5000 examples to be built. The intention was to build the required number only and use the success of the M3 on the track to sell the 325 and 320 models...much as Mercedes were doing with the 190 (the 2.3 and 2.5 16 valve motors were both 4 cylinder and the top of the range 190 was the 2.6 6-pot).
The Motorsport division did a superb job on this engine...they used an existing block (M10) which was also being used in the F1 engines for Brabham. It needed almost no modification to make into the S14 thereby saving on tooling and development costs.

There is a general misconception that the three blocks are similar, you cant use an M10 block on an S14 and similarly not with the M12/13. They are very very different!

[Fushion_Julz]

Do you know what the differences in the M10/S14 blocks are?

I know the bores are a different size but what else?

I've had 2 side by side and not seen much different in the castings.

[Demlotcrew]

Really? You didn't see much difference?

















There are internal oil gallery differences which I could not find on google images so you will have to take my word for it.

[Demlotcrew]

A few photos of a bottom end rebuild I did recently for a customer. You can see how different the S14 block really is.

[Jon_Bmw]

Anyone who complains about a lack of low down torque, generally doesn't know how to drive and use their left (or in the the m3s case) right hand.

[87mtech27]

Very informative pictures Andrew.

Since we talking about M10- S14 block differences.... There is another engine that I been wanting to know more about but there isn't much information available... The Schnitzer M10 that was used in racing 2002s.

The head looks identical to S14 head. Is it any difference?

Would love to buy a M10 one day just to tinker around and learn more on how engines work.

[Demlotcrew]

The Schnitzer 'M10' is actually designated as the Schnitzer '20-4' with an M10 block and the head is very different to the S14, its actually closer related to the M42 in its design with the tappet trays and funnel ports. A very interesting engine and great attempt by Schnitzer.

[NoTurbo]

I've driven a few a™Š

The S14 has plenty of torque, even in traffic, more per cc than the M52 a˜a

And a more efficient engine due to better designed head and block.

[etouring]

I've driven a few a™Š

The S14 has plenty of torque, even in traffic, more per cc than the M52 a˜a

Saying more per cc doesn't mean it has more, just saying

[reggid]

guys dont be drama queens, i never said it cant be used a DD merely that there there are better options and some people like a different type of power delivery on a DD compared to a weekend or track car. And of course BMW set it up to be a DD in the end.

ive experienced enough of the S14 that it wouldn't be my pick as a DD and as for it being an almighty torquey engine..........

The lack of torque takes a bit of getting used to...especially if you're used to modern diesels...but you just adjust your style of driving to suit the car...

[etouring]

they all got 2 cylinders missing

The Achilles heel of the M3,
I hate the spastic s14 why didn't they fit the M88 for the sake of the small weight difference ?

It was all to do with where the engine sits in the bay...the longer M88 block would have altered the weight distribution with too much weight ahead of the front axle.

Also it would have put the car in a different class to the Mercedes 190 which is what BMW were aiming at both on the track and in the showrooms.

The M88 was already old in 1986 having been in the E24 (which the E30 replaced on the track). The S38 would have been the 6 cylinder equivalent, but that was developed later for the E34.

The S14 was exactly the right engine for the job...remember the homologation only called for 5000 examples to be built. The intention was to build the required number only and use the success of the M3 on the track to sell the 325 and 320 models...much as Mercedes were doing with the 190 (the 2.3 and 2.5 16 valve motors were both 4 cylinder and the top of the range 190 was the 2.6 6-pot).
The Motorsport division did a superb job on this engine...they used an existing block (M10) which was also being used in the F1 engines for Brabham. It needed almost no modification to make into the S14 thereby saving on tooling and development costs.
It was more powerful than the Mercedes motors and the M3 was cheaper on the road than the Mercedes 190 2.3-16. The BMW also beat the Merc on the track.

The success of the M3 meant that 17,000 or so were made (and sold), even though it was significantly more expensive than a better equipped 325i.

You may not like the S14, but it is one of the great engines in touring car history.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression they had to use a 4 pot to race in the series must be the only reason they made the s14 in the first place. M88 would have been awesome! They almost got there with the 333i using the m30 personally that would be my ultimate collectors E30

[87mtech27]

The Schnitzer 'M10' is actually designated as the Schnitzer '20-4' with an M10 block and the head is very different to the S14, its actually closer related to the M42 in its design with the tappet trays and funnel ports. A very interesting engine and great attempt by Schnitzer.

Nice one. Those early heads developed for the M10 block by various tuners of the time are very very interesting. If my numbers come up I'll buy one to throw into a 2002 tii

[87mtech27]

The 333i wasn't that good on the track as it was nose heavy however BMWs rivals in SA also used big monster engines. The handling wasn't that good as the engine sat way too forward just like it did in B6 2.8.

Having said that I still want one more than I want E30 M3.

Definitely a beast of a car, the 3.2 M30 was chosen over a 3.5 because of its revvy nature.

[bss325i]

The 260bhp B6 3.5 was a better bet than either the 333i and B6 2.8 which were both 210bhp. That's C2 2.7 territory.

[87mtech27]

B6 3.5 sounds like bat sh*t crazy. 200bhp is more controllable for amateurs like me

[etouring]

The 333i wasn't that good on the track as it was noise heavy. The engine sat way too forward just like it did in B6 2.8.

Well Alpina basically built it. I just think it's cool the story behind it is also cool. It's like a low budget M3 they made at home because there were no M3s but they still wanted to go fast. Kinda like the m52 conversions that are becoming more popular today. People like e30's but don't want some fiesta leaving them at the lights. M3's prices are going throught the roof! So bring on the time of engine conversions! Or you could be lucky like Barry and find an M3 for under 10k

[87mtech27]

Apparently two chaps brainstormed the idea of 333i on toilet paper after work, both chaps later climbed BMW ranks in Germany later on.

Had Alpina worked their magic on the 3.2 like they did on the 2.8 and 3.5 I reckon the 3.2 would have produced around 230bhp.

[pacerpete]

The 333 uses loads of bespoke Alpina B6 components, IE sump, radiator, mounts, hoses , intake etc etc.
I am fairly certain it was hobbled with the boggo 3.2 as Alpina did not want anybody having a cut price non Alpina B6.

[NoTurbo]

Just out of curiosity I checked the specs of an M50 vs 2.1 M42 and the power figures are quite similar.

2.1 M42 198.3BHP 172.9 lbft
2.5 M50 217.3BHP 200 lbft
2.5 S14 268BHP 194.4 lbft

Now looking at these numbers in terms of modifying your engine vs engine swap, it comes down to how you want to drive your car. All options give about the same output. S14 might cost a bit more to modify but will hold its value better than any other option.

(*Stats taken form dyne charts here: http://www.e30zone.net/e30zonewiki/inde ... yno_Graphs)