What's needed to create a truly great e30

[Muzz2676]

Please bare with me here, I kind of know what I'm asking but having a bit of trouble articulating.... And no I haven't been drinking.

The e30 m30 has been hailed as the greatest M car ever built. I've never driven one but as a drivers car it seems to beat the modern machinery. What makes it so good?

Is it possible to take a normal e30 and recreate the feeling and driver involvement that the m3 gives, or is that just not possible, I understand that with the m3 sense of occasion must count for a lot.

I would imagine that some of the off the shelf components that are available with regards brakes and suspension etc are far superior.

[ross_jsy]

m3 suspension/brakes/steering rack/engine/box/diff in a LHD car will be pretty much there. But that would cost you a lot.

[bab-91]

Buy a 318is.....

[Muzz2676]

Okay, maybe a better way of putting it, take a normal e30, put in a 3.0 m52, good modern suspension, brakes and other bits and bobs for example, will it ever drive as well as an e30 m3, but then I suppose you would have created a different car, not necessarily better, just different.....

[bss325i]

A faster car than a standard E30 M3 for sure.

Fitting the E30 M5 5 stud set up makes a noticeable difference as the geometry is different and improved.

[ross_jsy]

Well a lot of what makes an m3 an m3 is that buzzy 4 pot up front. It would be very easy to make an m3 beater with modern parts but it will miss that certain something an m3 has and just be any old modded e30

[LondonTom]

Okay, maybe a better way of putting it, take a normal e30, put in a 3.0 m52, good modern suspension, brakes and other bits and bobs for example, will it ever drive as well as an e30 m3, but then I suppose you would have created a different car, not necessarily better, just different.....

Doubt it - m3's are so well balanced, would be pretty tough to replicate with a 6 pot imo.

Dependent on what quality of components you use, it should still be a decent car to drive and fairly swift too.

[maxfield]

The brakes feel better on the M3 as there isn't a bar across the bulkhead, stiff chassis, better aerodynamics, better suspension etc etc even the LHD makes the M3 feel more special.

Ive driven a hell of a lot of cars, and still think the E30 M3 is the best car I've driven in terms of driver feel and enjoyment.

[Muzz2676]

Well a lot of what makes an m3 an m3 is that buzzy 4 pot up front. It would be very easy to make an m3 beater with modern parts but it will miss that certain something an m3 has and just be any old modded e30

Yeah...I get what you're saying.

I'm afraid I'm doing the old musing bit, I do it a lot and go off on all sorts of tangents.

This probably should be in a different thread as its completely different question but for a road car with occasional track work what would be the ideal set up. (If you haven't guessed that's what I'm going for and I didn't buy a 318is as a starting point).

Barry, I'll look into your suggestion

[jimbom30cab]

A pre facelift m52 b30 with 5 stud and 4 pot brakes will be a great e30 and perhaps as much fun to drive as an M3, but probably with a different character.

All depends if you want nostalgia or not

[Muzz2676]

A pre facelift m52 b30 with 5 stud and 4 pot brakes will be a great e30 and perhaps as much fun to drive as an M3, but probably with a different character.

All depends if you want nostalgia or not

Well I think nostalgia is out of the window. Why a pre facelift, I've got a facelift car.

I'm currently having a 3.0 m52 engine built so we're on the right track.

[87mtech27]

I would second Jim's comment although I would like either M52B32 from Schnitzers S3 or Alpina's B3 3.2.

[ross_jsy]

A pre facelift m52 b30 with 5 stud and 4 pot brakes will be a great e30 and perhaps as much fun to drive as an M3, but probably with a different character.

All depends if you want nostalgia or not

Well I think nostalgia is out of the window. Why a pre facelift, I've got a facelift car.

I'm currently having a 3.0 m52 engine built so we're on the right track.

Prefacelift are lighter + m3's are based on prefacelifts

[jimbom30cab]

And the alloy block of the m52 reduces the up front weight of a 6 pot

Now if only you could get a dog leg box for the m5x engine

[maxfield]

I don't think an M52 weighs a lot more than an S14.

But if you've ever drove an M3 on track with an S14 singing away you'd realise why they're so special.

[Muzz2676]

But if you've ever drove an M3 on track with an S14 singing away you'd realise why they're so special.

Nope but boy do I want too!

I should have bought one back in the day, just never considered one and now haven't got the funds.....hindsight is a wonderful thing!

[magpie]

Okay, maybe a better way of putting it, take a normal e30, put in a 3.0 m52, good modern suspension, brakes and other bits and bobs for example, will it ever drive as well as an e30 m3, but then I suppose you would have created a different car, not necessarily better, just different.....

start with a 318is and add a load of factory optional extras along with the above and a 6-speed box and you basically have my car .

[reggid]

you can mod a regular e30 to have most things the m3 has except the chassis part which wouldn't be practical.

[Split_S]

Once my 318iS project is finished, I will find a decent m3 and beg my wife to let me buy it.

That's the plan anyways... no modifying required.

[DanThe]

I don't think an M52 weighs a lot more than an S14.

But if you've ever drove an M3 on track with an S14 singing away you'd realise why they're so special.

M52 must be lighter, if you have ever lifted them you will have the same opinion!

[ross_jsy]

An m52 and a carbon bonnet will be cheaper than an s14 and probably weigh less

[German-Whips]

My friend took me for a ride in his E30 M3 over the weekend and it's true what they say about the M3.I've got to say, before that ride I always though it was over hyped. But i got proven wrong!

I noticed a lot of things which made the car special compared to other E30s.

1) The sound of the S14 engine singing up front is just something out of this world, it is seriously lively
2) The grip of the car around corners whilst being thrashed is just amazing, I was crapping myself thinking we're going to spin out of control or lose control or something
3) The response from the engine is just crazy, when it opens up, you really realise why they call it a race engine


That was all as a passenger!

[e30topless]

you can mod a regular e30 to have most things the m3 has except the chassis part which wouldn't be practical.

Other than a few brackets the chassis on an m3 is the same as any other e30 !

[Muzz2676]

Mmmm, might have to sell the car and get a 318is and start again.

[pacerpete]

Mmmm, might have to sell the car and get a 318is and start again.

If you have any regard for your dollarz, you would be much better off saving your money and buying a M3.

15k spunked on a molested mutant = a 4-5k hard to shift turd when you want / need to cash it in. People who want a modified car , generally build their own, not buy somebody elses vision.

[ross_jsy]

Mmmm, might have to sell the car and get a 318is and start again.

Why would you start with an is? Assuming your car has 52mm struts and discs all round, there would be no point if you were just going to stick an m52b30 back in

[DanThe]

you can mod a regular e30 to have most things the m3 has except the chassis part which wouldn't be practical.

Other than a few brackets the chassis on an m3 is the same as any other e30 !

Noooo, its all about the rear window spoiler

[daimlerman]

M3 has several minor changes to the front suspension;

Eccentric rear bushes to the TCA's
Completely different mounting for the ARB,this allows a much thinner ARB to be used.
5 bolt wheel hub,main beniefit is the bigger choice of wheel sizes.

Main change to the shell,apart from the wheelarches,of course,is that the windscreen is bonded in.This helps to stiffen the shell.

It should be remembered that BMW went racing with the M3,the road cars were a by product of this...a set minimum number of cars needed to be built to meet race regulations.This is most likely to be the reason for LHD only,it was probably not considered to be financially viable to build a RHD version.





Steve Soper reunited with one of his race M3's;

[HairyScreech]

The track/geometry change of the M3 does make a huge difference. My touring is now very close to the M3 geometry thanks to the 5 stud I did. I think I'm only a couple of degrees of toe on the rear and some ARBs away from it.
The grip change has been huge, I am getting fuel surge on roundabouts in the wet and can drive through corners on the power I used to back off for. (the GF hates it, Think there might be permanent nail marks in the dash/seat )
It's so stable compared to the car I was used to, harder to loose grip but easier to control when it does, massively more stable as well.

The second biggest improvement is in the ARBs on the E30, they are way too soft. Something the M3 addresses by 45% if my calculations are correct (need to check). Closest non M parts would be a 320 saloon bar mounted to the struts and a 15mm rear from a 323 compact or Z3.

Brake feel can be replicated by making up for the losses in the brake transfer bar elsewhere, brace the master, go for braided lines etc. Better callipers/bigger discs are easy.

I will say the aero of the M3 shell is hardly special by modern standards, a stock E30 shell could be made as good, the M3 is a product of a restrictive and specific set of rules.

The fact is most E30s people are used to are tired shite, so a well kept M3 feels like a rocket ship comparatively.
The M3 is hardly special, compared to a stock E30 it is but there are a lot of normal E30 shells on here that are now better than a stock M3.

[DanThe]

The differences are negligible, you can easily make another E30 drive as good/better than an M3

[Theo]

Brake feel can be replicated by making up for the losses in the brake transfer bar elsewhere, brace the master, go for braided lines etc. Better callipers/bigger discs are easy.

Wholeheartedly disagree with this, every RHD e30 I've driven with the linkage arrangement has had a truly awful brake pedal.

What first struck me about the M3 is the power delivery matched with the gear ratios of the dogleg box - makes for an exciting drive.

[maxfield]

I don't think an M52 weighs a lot more than an S14.

But if you've ever drove an M3 on track with an S14 singing away you'd realise why they're so special.

M52 must be lighter, if you have ever lifted them you will have the same opinion!

http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/enumber.html

S14 slightly less according to that.

I have lifted both, but there was a few years apart in lifting them.

M52 is suprisingly light for its size, I kicked one around my workshop for ages before it sold.

The S14 will have less weight over hanging the front wheels though which will have an affect.

[DanThe]

Do you believe everything you read on the net?

Centre of gravity FTW

[Demlotcrew]

S14 is easily lighter, as for M3 specific 5 stud, you cant replicate it. Without going in to much detail, the front lower 'lever' plate design offers the best steering feel of any road BMW made to date!

Dont get me started with the Chassis, there are so many differences that those who think the C pillar and arches are the only differences really should hang their head in shame.

[andyp]

S14 is easily lighter, as for M3 specific 5 stud, you cant replicate it. Without going in to much detail, the front lower 'lever' plate design offers the best steering feel of any road BMW made to date!

Dont get me started with the Chassis, there are so many differences that those who think the C pillar and arches are the only differences really should hang their head in shame.

you forgot to mention it also has 2 cylinders missing